Carada 110" and HS20 ... Gain? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm getting ready to order the screen, but I can't decide on 1.0 or the 1.4. The calculations, based on FL = Lum * gain / screen area give the following numbers (assume 600 lum for real world w/ low lamp);

1.0 = 16.6 FL
1.4 = 23 FL

Although 16 is recommended for film, that seems too close. Normal direct tv viewing is more like 25. So would the 1.4 be my better choice (always have the option of reducing brightness and increasing bulb life)?

I've used the samples and think the 1.4 looks good, but it is really hard to tell w/ the small samples. I've watched a few movies on my yellowish wall and it looked fine also. This wall probably has a slightly negative gain. However, for HD viewing, it could use more. That's why the 1.0 scares me.

This will be a 110 or 118", so there is quite a bit of screen to fill. I'm at 12.5 to 13.5ft for seating distance.

Thoughts? Thanks! Chad :confused:
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post #2 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 09:52 AM
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Go with the 1.4 gain screen. 600 lumens is probably about right with the low lamp setting and a new lamp. Closing down the iris will increase on-off CR but will decrease lumen output. Add in lamp aging and you may find that Ft-lamberts are lacking if you go with the 1.0 gain material. If you find that the image is too bright with the 1.4 gain material when you are watching with no ambient light, then you can always slap on a ND filter.

BTW, I tested a HS20 in my HT and was surprised to see that it could light up my 144" diagonal microperforated GrayHawk (0.85 gain) with the lamp in the high setting and the iris fully open. This was with a new lamp.
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post #3 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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144" WITH A .085 GAIN ???? What do you drive that with?

Thanks for the advice - chad
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post #4 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 10:45 AM
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I am using a Sanyo PLV-60 which I have had for over two years now. The screen has really limited my choices in a suitable projector replacement. Single chip DLP projectors do not have sufficient firepower (actually the InFocus 7200 does, but its lens offset makes it impractical in my room). The Sanyo PLV-70 was another possible candidate but it offers little improvement IMO over the PLV-60 other than greater light output. A JVC-G150 would probably work if coupled with an anamorphic lens but now we are talking serious coin. I was very impressed with the HS20. It significantly outperformed my PLV-60 in every respect other than light output. I need at least 800 lumens to get a picture with adequate brightness. The HS20 will do this with a new lamp and in high lamp mode with the iris open.
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post #5 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 01:59 PM
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ok.. trying to understand this formula.. if i want a 90 x 50 screen (103 diag) that = approx. 31 sq ft.. the Sharp Z12 has a spec of 900 lumens, but in power save mode this will lower this to 700.. so 700/31 = 22 for 1.0 screen. a 1.4 screen would be 31.

wouldn't the 1.0 screen be enough bright? why would I want a higher gain than 1.0?
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post #6 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 02:19 PM
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jkirby,
Your math is correct, however, what may not be correct is the true lumen output of the Z2. Projector Central measured the Z2 at approximately 600 lumens in high lamp mode with the iris fully open, and approximately 400 lumens with the iris closed. Take another 20% off if you use power save mode and you are down to less than 500 lumens in with the iris open and close to 300 lumens with the iris closed. These figures were with a new lamp so you have to figure on losing additional lumens as the lamp ages. This could cost you another 50%. Remember that it is an easy matter to add a ND filter to cut down excess lumens, however, it is impossible to add needed lumens (except for replacing an old lamp with a new one).
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post #7 of 11 Old 01-12-2004, 02:46 PM
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I'm in the same position as Chad. My HS20 will arrive tomorrow, I have my samples from Carada, screen size will be 118" (must be that size for the PJ to be mounted near the back of the room). Brilliant white or classic cinema white?? Personally - I'm leaning towards Brilliant white. I think I can live with the blacks being grey so long as the colors are bright and vivid. Has anyone married a HS20 w/ a Carada screen and cares to give opinions on the results?
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post #8 of 11 Old 01-13-2004, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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At 118", you are only looking at about 15 FL w/ the 1.0 gain (given the above calculations). You should definitely consider the 1.4. 16 FL is the THX recommended. Typical direct view tv is about 25 FL, so w/ 1.4 gain you come in at 20FL (somewhere in the middle). Unfortunately for us new FP owners ... the only way is down (lumen output) ;)

118" was my first choice, but my primary seating location ended up closer than expected prior to construction and drove me down to 110" (of course I saved $100!)

I found the samples useful somewhat, but difficult to get any real answers. I relied mostly on all the great opinions of those on this forum! My screen was ordered yesterday!

Thanks again. Chad
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post #9 of 11 Old 01-14-2004, 05:11 AM
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Chad - Did you go with the Brilliant white? We received the projector yesterday, and while my wife and I were originally leaning towards BW or at the least CCW, we both agreed that the high contrast gray was the best of the bunch. It gave much more of the "cinema" feel that we were looking for (smoother tones, a little darker), had remarkable black levels in comparison to the other two samples, and minimized the screendoor effect. It looks like in about 3 weeks when we finish with electrical work and paint in the HT room we will be ordering a high contrast grey screen. Oh, all of this was based on testing with lamp mode on low and the iris on.
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post #10 of 11 Old 01-14-2004, 06:54 AM
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unefined,

Were you projecting a full 118" diagonal image when you looked at the samples? That's a pretty big screen for the HS-20 on a .8 gain surface material. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the High Contrast Grey. But don't forget that the HS-20 (like any projector) will lose brightness as the bulb ages.

So if you were projecting a full size 118", and you feel like there was PLENTY of brightness to spare (for your tastes) on the High Contrast Grey, then go for it. But if in your opinion the image was borderline in the brightness department, it will likely cross that line with some hours on the bulb.

David Giles

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What image do YOU want to project?
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post #11 of 11 Old 01-14-2004, 10:53 AM
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David,

I was wondering how long it would take before you chimed in on this thread. As for the size, I did not measure the size that we were projecting last night, but it was definitely close to 118". At the very least, it was 105" - 110". That is based on the fact that it was right next to my 51" Hitachi 51F500, and it was at least twice the width.

As far as the HCG vs. CCW - the HCG gives it much more of a "theater" feel. A little darker, for sure, but much smoother image and much better blacks. The CCW gives it a little bit crisper colors (better for bright films and for skin tones), but the blacks are weak (HCG makes black look like black, CCW makes black look like medium gray). The Brilliant White material is nice for outdoor bright scenes, but it makes the black look like a light gray. The other issue is that with the HCG we were able to put the lamp in "High" mode for a bright film (American Pie) and in low mode for a darker film (Matrix Reloaded). The scenes that were easiest to test it out on is Chapter 2 of both films. At the start of Chapter 2 in Matrix Reloaded you see the exterior of the ship going through tunnels, which look washed out and bland on the two white screens, on the grey screen it feels like you are in the cinema. Near the begining of chapter 2 in American pie you see sh!tbrick sitting on a bench, his face looks dull on the gray screen and more accurate on the 1.0 gain white screen. When you increase the lamp to high mode it makes the gray screen look much more like the white screen on low lamp mode.

For what it is worth, I'm still waiting on samples from Vutec (Silverstar), Stewart (Grayhawk and Firehawk), and Da-Lite (can't remember which ones they are sending). I'm very curious how the Silverstar will look, since from what I have read the silver gives blacks deeper tones, will bringing out color scenes even more. The Stewart and Da-Lite screens are for comparison sake. David, if you could only make a silver screen everything would be perfect! Please, please, please annouce that you will be making a silver Carada screen. My kingdom for a SILVER CARADA SCREEN!

Oh, lastly, for those who haven't dealt with David from Carada, Inc - I have nothing but good things to say about him. Without a doubt, I will be buying a Carada screen. There is nothing that Stewart, Vutec, Draper, Da-Lite, or anyone else can do at this point that could hold a candle to the excellent customer service I have received from David. Carada had my business before I even received the samples. Two thumbs up, David. :)

Lastly, and I know I'm getting long winded here, is there any way to encourage or convince you to move forward with a silver screen, David? I think if you posted a poll on the screens forum you'd get a lot of feedback similar to mine. Just look at the number of people spending close to the cost of a Carada screen to make a SuperDeluxe/MississippiMud screen. I'd gladly volunteer to be a beta tester / preorder candidate!


Update: $3k for a screen and NO customer service. I will not be getting a Vutec sample - they showed no interest whatsoever in my business. Lousy customer service. Grrrr.

Oh, and I did play around with DIY screens today. Got some plexi and painted it w/ Rustoleum Metallic Aluminum on one side (2 coats), Rustoleum Blossom White Satin (1 coat) on the other side. When that dried I painted the aluminum side with a light coat of the Blossom White Satin - the end result, it looks almost exactly like the Classic Cinema White. Only problem is getting the darned spray paint even. Not really worth it to me, but it was a fun way to kill an afternoon. :)
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