The Official Stewart Film Screen thread. - Page 66 - AVS Forum
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post #1951 of 1971 Old 12-13-2014, 05:33 PM
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New photos of late afternoon sunlight coming in the living room and right at the screen from an angle. I took 3 pics. From the left side (light behind me), Straight on at screen (light coming from left to the screen), and From the right side, camera pointed at screen with the sunlight coming from the left and onto the screen image and into the camera slightly.





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post #1952 of 1971 Old 12-13-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
The issue I see with the firehawk is the off axis viewing. The Firehawk looks to be 35 degrees to 50% vs 77% with the Grayhawk. The gain is not really an issue, given how bright the projector is (too bright really for 92" screen even in gray, find myself squinting on bright scenes). This is not a dedicated home theater, so off axis viewing is something that happens quite a bit.

Also with further researching I see mention of samples. Do these come from dealers or the manufacturer? Perhaps having a grayhawk and a firehawk samples to evaluate could be the way to go. Probably have to go to Dallas or Oklahoma City to find a dealer (both about 120 miles away).

As a side note I am also looking forward to getting a 4k projector, hopefully towards the end of next year when the whole HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and Rec 2020 colorspace issues are worked out (I know next year could be dreaming). I assume both the Firehawk and the Grayhawk would do well with a 4k picture.

From my understanding of Stewart screens essentially there is 100->grayhawk->firehawk in order of no rejection of ambient/reflected to most rejected.
No, the Grayhawk has no ambient rejection, none, nada. It is gray for different reasons. Any ambient rejection will come with some narrower viewing cone. When we did some side by side tests a few years ago, the GH washed worse than any material because of it's low (negative) gain. It is for a different purpose. Your dealer should be helping you pick the right screen. If you don't have one helping you, hire me before you make a mistake.
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post #1953 of 1971 Old 12-13-2014, 10:19 PM
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But, at night, no lights, the image looks the same from any angle. At least to my eyes it looks the same.
Projector is a JVC RS56 (1200 lumens)

This is nearly straight on, but at slightly off-center.


Approx: severe angle (viewing from the right)


Approx: closer to 45 deg (viewing from the left)
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post #1954 of 1971 Old 12-14-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post
No, the Grayhawk has no ambient rejection, none, nada. It is gray for different reasons. Any ambient rejection will come with some narrower viewing cone. When we did some side by side tests a few years ago, the GH washed worse than any material because of it's low (negative) gain. It is for a different purpose. Your dealer should be helping you pick the right screen. If you don't have one helping you, hire me before you make a mistake.
I have not been to a dealer yet. I was just going by Stewart's web site where they list the Grayhawk as:

Quote:
Superior performance in environments with ambient light
Ambient Light Front Reflectance Value 49% per foot candle
Ambient Light Resistance Moderate performance in ambient light
and the FireHawk as:

Quote:
Ambient Light Front Reflectance Value 27% per foot candle
Ambient Light Resistance Excellent performance in ambient light
I also considered the gray screen since my projector does not have a dynamic iris, so it could help bring down the black floor.


The pictures that Stan-Lee has provided of off axis and ambient performance of the Firehawk sure look good.
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post #1955 of 1971 Old 12-15-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
I have not been to a dealer yet. I was just going by Stewart's web site where they list the Grayhawk as:



and the FireHawk as:



I also considered the gray screen since my projector does not have a dynamic iris, so it could help bring down the black floor.


The pictures that Stan-Lee has provided of off axis and ambient performance of the Firehawk sure look good.

Off axis performance is perfectly fine. I had a Firehawk G3 for 5 years in my theater - 118" wide, with one row of seating - 14' wide. I frequently sat in an off axis seat when guests were there. No problems !

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post #1956 of 1971 Old 12-15-2014, 11:14 AM
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A bit off-topic from the current conversation, but I just want to say I love my ST100 screen. I've got it in a painted/carpeted dedicated black pit theater room, but it's such a nice screen.

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post #1957 of 1971 Old 12-16-2014, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
A bit off-topic from the current conversation, but I just want to say I love my ST100 screen. I've got it in a painted/carpeted dedicated black pit theater room, but it's such a nice screen.

Great screen for use in a perfect room like yours.
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post #1958 of 1971 Old 12-16-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by craig peer View Post
great screen for use in a perfect room like yours.
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post #1959 of 1971 Old 12-16-2014, 10:35 AM
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That room is pretty much a requirement for the ST100 to look its best. For the rest of us without perfect black rooms, there's the ST130 and the Cima Neve !!
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post #1960 of 1971 Old 12-16-2014, 10:55 AM
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While I am able to achieve the light output I prefer with the ST100 paired with my JVC RS4810 (even considering some lamp aging), if I wanted anything notably brighter I would have to move up to the Neve or ST130 even in this room - or move to a brighter projector, but I don't like real bright images - my eyes don't tolerate them well. And I love the contrast/blacks of the JVC.

Just to add: my screen is 46"x108", 14ft projector throw
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post #1961 of 1971 Old 12-16-2014, 11:00 AM
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I also really like the Luxus Deluxe frame. The magnet clips for the bottom of the frame (behind it) do a really nice job of keeping the entire screen frame flat against the wall.
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post #1962 of 1971 Old 12-17-2014, 08:49 AM
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The Official Stewart Film Screen thread.

More pics of my FireHawk. The room is not completely dark in reality. The other post shows the darker room but these pretty much show actual lighting at night. The screen lights up the room but as you can see, any angle is viewable with FireHawk.





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post #1963 of 1971 Unread 12-19-2014, 12:09 PM
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Those pics are impressive given the angle and lighting in the room!

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post #1964 of 1971 Unread 12-19-2014, 09:25 PM
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I'm always fascinated by the differing perceptions of hot-spotting. A lot of people just don't notice it, and I suppose they are the lucky ones.
The Firehawk is truly a great screen for it's intended function.

But the obvious (IMO) hotspotting prevalent in Stan-Lee's photos is the main reason I had to give up considering the firehawk and go with an ST-130, choosing to treat my room instead of having the screen try to fix the problem.
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post #1965 of 1971 Unread Yesterday, 12:09 PM
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I was hoping to check in with those of you who have chosen the Tiburon. It seemed from this thread that everyone was pleased, but then I was reading Accu Cal's screen report (can't link - sorry) that many seem to hold in high regard and was a little surprised with the findings on the Tiburon. I had originally planned on getting the SI Black Diamond because of the ambient light capabilities and (especially) the zero edge design, but after seeing it in person it seems - unfortunately - that I am one of those people who notice the shimmering. It did not jump out at me, but my room's light control is not terrible and I refuse to pay 4 grand for something that might grow to drive me insane.

The Tiburon seemed like a good compromise with its slight ambient light capabilities, price, and lack of shimmer. Before I read the previously mentioned report, the only downside for me was the lack of a zero edge type frame. I wish I could get the aesthetics of the small frame, but will gladly give that up for a better picture.

So I guess all of that breaks down to this: have you Tiburon owners remained pleased with your image and have you noticed a lot/any sparkles? I can deal with a small amount. If this screen does in fact have the shimmering qualities mentioned at the levels given in the report, I will likely just go with a Da-lite UTB Contour (don't know what screen materials yet) to get the thin bezel look and pocket the savings.

I will have either an Epson 5030ub or Sony HW40ES, 110 inch screen, around 13ft throw (not installed yet, could be increased if necessary), and 14ft main viewing distance. I really appreciate your impression and/or advice.
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post #1966 of 1971 Unread Yesterday, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'm always fascinated by the differing perceptions of hot-spotting. A lot of people just don't notice it, and I suppose they are the lucky ones.
The Firehawk is truly a great screen for it's intended function.

But the obvious (IMO) hotspotting prevalent in Stan-Lee's photos is the main reason I had to give up considering the firehawk and go with an ST-130, choosing to treat my room instead of having the screen try to fix the problem.

Well, the camera does exaggerate the hotspot as you see it. It really is not as prevalent in person.
I could have photoshopped it out but decided to just leave the image as-is. Not everyone has the cash to do what you have done.
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post #1967 of 1971 Unread Yesterday, 03:14 PM
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Well, the camera does exaggerate the hotspot as you see it. It really is not as prevalent in person.
I could have photoshopped it out but decided to just leave the image as-is. Not everyone has the cash to do what you have done.
I think one reason the camera may seem to exagerate hotspotting is:

1. You are going more off-axis than you usually are viewing content.
2. The image is frozen, making it more obvious. Usually image content is changing continually making the hotspotting harder to see, and you are watching the content, so you just aren't concentrating on any hot-spotting issues to notice it.

That said, I do not see your photos as exaggerating the issue, as I find the same hotspotting when viewing the Firehawk in person.

But, like I said, we each tend to be more sensitive to different compromises.

I"m not putting the Firehawk down, it's an incredible screen. I've seen it work wonders in so many different set ups. Sure I went with the ST-130, but it's compromise is that it doesn't maintain contrast in nearly the variety of room situations as the Firehawk, and so it demands more effort from the owner to darken the room reflections. That's a major compromise for many people in terms of effort and possibly expense, which is why gray screens like the Firehawk are so popular.
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post #1968 of 1971 Unread Today, 08:13 AM
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The Official Stewart Film Screen thread.

Only 3 of the 9 images were frozen. Those were the set of 3 of the same image. All the others were live TV. I only used a small pocket camera rather than a DSLR. The camera did influence some of the photos. But I was trying to show a real world simulation of the FireHawk with a 13' throw distance in a non-perfect theater room. Once you're immersed in a movie, you don't really notice the hotspotting. It's only when there is a constant or dominant color that you notice it. Ice hockey for instance...it's noticeable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I think one reason the camera may seem to exagerate hotspotting is:

1. You are going more off-axis than you usually are viewing content.
2. The image is frozen, making it more obvious. Usually image content is changing continually making the hotspotting harder to see, and you are watching the content, so you just aren't concentrating on any hot-spotting issues to notice it.

That said, I do not see your photos as exaggerating the issue, as I find the same hotspotting when viewing the Firehawk in person.

But, like I said, we each tend to be more sensitive to different compromises.

I"m not putting the Firehawk down, it's an incredible screen. I've seen it work wonders in so many different set ups. Sure I went with the ST-130, but it's compromise is that it doesn't maintain contrast in nearly the variety of room situations as the Firehawk, and so it demands more effort from the owner to darken the room reflections. That's a major compromise for many people in terms of effort and possibly expense, which is why gray screens like the Firehawk are so popular.
It's extremely difficult to get accurate photos of screen shots. I don't even bother - I don't have anywhere near a good enough camera. And while many ( any ? ) screen can hotspot, that is dependent on having your projector at the correct throw distance for the screen. Stewart has a screen system calculator to find the proper minimum throw distance for their different screen materials. I had a 118" wide Firehawk G3 in my theater with a 14' throw distance. Too close and not recommended. It did exhibit some hot spotting, but it never bothered me, and wasn't visible most of the time. If I had a more normal throw distance ( like the minimum recommended throw of 15.75' or greater ) there would be no hot spotting. So it's not that the Firehawk is prone to hot spotting - you just need the projector to be at the correct distance. I'd hate to see what a 120" wide Vutec Silverstar would have looked like with my Lumis mounted at 14' !!

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post #1970 of 1971 Unread Today, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post
Only 3 of the 9 images were frozen.
I mean that taking a photo (whether the on screen action is moving or not) obviously freezes the image.
Take a photo of a tennis game on your screen and obviously the picture freezes the action. Since the screen-shot-photo is frozen, you don't have any moving images and scene-lighting changes to distract the eye, hence easier to notice hot-spotting.

I hope that's more clear.

Craig,

I was seriously considering the Firehawk for years for my projection screen, and since it's the single most popular screen in the AV stores (or used to be) I've seen it in all manner of set-ups, screen sizes, throw distances, height from screen etc. I was aware of the advice about how the Firehawk is best employed, with some saying as you have that if used as advised it would not hotpsot (though I don't think even Stewart makes that claim, only minimizing it).

Yet I always have seen it hot-spotting. I've seen it in perfect set ups that, on the principles you've mentioned, it would not hot-spot. It's hot-spotted the same pretty much every time. Upon learning more about how screens work, I realised why that is the case. That is simply the nature of how the screen is designed, what it's optical coating does - it focuses light slightly more like a mirror does, vs a screen without the gain. That's why the projector hot-spot follows you as you move around, just as it would if it were shining in a mirror. It's literally impossible (I believe) for the Firehawk not to hotspot - The Firehawk simply can not even do what it is supposed to do (reduce influence of light reflections and raise image brightness at the viewer location) without hotspotting, because that's how it works.

Not for a moment would I suggest others not look at the Firehawk because of this issue because most just don't notice or care as much as I do about that particular artifact.

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My personal screen is a 11.5' wide curved FHG3. I'm sensitive to hotspotting, you don't see any on my screen. Well, no one besides you can. Don't measure any either.
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