AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

The official Vutec screen thread.

37K views 399 replies 59 participants last post by  joerod 
#1 ·
The Ultimate perf screen..well sorta. I say sorta because its not perforated its a fine mesh. Its very simular to the well known Screen Research but available at a fraction of the cost. Because of this I dont under stand the lack of attention this screen is getting or not getting. Because of the fine mesh sound quality is excellent. To my ears its acoustically transparent and neutral. Im running a set of magnapans. Im talking about the Vutec sound screen. It comes in white or grey. I can only speak of the white. Im told the material is not painted but is the natural color of the material. The gain is .8 or 8.5

My eyes cannot see the holes or texture beyond 2 feet.


Here is a close up of the material.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_009.jpg


You definitely want to hang black material directly behind the screen. If not any thing reflective such as a silver tweeter cone on a spkr or anything of bright color will become visible if your sitting at the right angle as the light from a projector passes through the screen and hits the object.

Because of the fine mesh I would guess 30 to 40% of the screen is missing so when watching a movie you could say you missed 40% of the show:)

In reality 40% of what your watching is passing through the screen.


Its amazing how transparent the material is when holding it up to the light yet it captures enough of the light to reflect a watchable picture. I am using a old Sim 300. The first 16x9 chip dlp and this machine is dim and it lit up this screen just fine. In fact adding black material behind the screen adds depth and 3d appearance and increases black level. Something Cineramix ( Peter) on this forum has made reference to many times.

My screen is a custom curved Lace & Grommet 235:1 ratio from Stewart. I have all their screen materials including their micro perf but because I like to sit so close to my screen I could still see the perfs. I gave Vutec the dimensions and they were able to sell me just the material to fit my screen. Now I have my spkrs behind the screen with no visible structure. It is so cool having the audio come from behind the screen just like a real theater.

I want to comment on moire (spelling)

I can see this artifact with every perf I have tried with my 720P dlp including this material but with this material its barely visible and with just the slightest click of the projectors focus I was able to eliminate the moire. I did not have to defocus the image to the point it caused any softness at all. Displaying fine text appears sharp and clear.

Anyone wanting the Screen Research but cant afford it this is the next closest thing yet affordable. I highly recommend it.

Heres a pic of my bastardized screen. Stewart Frame/Vutec soundscreen material.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_0071.jpg


Heres a pic from the up coming movie "Herbie Fully Loaded" in 185:1 HD
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_020.jpg


Samuel Jackson in the up coming movie "The Man" scope HD. Looks like hes ready to kick some a#$
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_0151.jpg


Thats all folks.
 
See less See more
#28 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangram
Alan, thx for posting the pix. Maybe I am overly sensitive to these sorts of things! I played around a bit last night and was able to eliminate most Moire when watching Ice Age (a good one because transfer is very clean and there are lots of bright white, uniform scenes.
I could only see mine in a bright scene as well. It took me a day to even notice I had it but I was lucky in being able to eliminate it as described. Best of luck.
 
#30 ·
Alan,


We make one meter samples of ClearPix 2 readily available. Always have. Please contact me through the Stjohngroup.com web site and we'll get you set up.


There have been three major indepth reviews of CP2 to date by some pretty reputable magazines (Ultimate AV, Home Theater and next month in Robb Report's Home Entertainment Design) None of these resepected reviewers (Tom Norton, Scott Wilkinson or David Birch Jones) has seen ANY signs of moire. Neither the ISF nor THX could find any signs of moire even under RIGOROUS laboratory testing.


If any one on this forum is seeing moire with CP2, it's because they the screen material in backwards. If you can see the weave of the CP2 material at normal seating distance, again, you may be looking at it backwards.


Tom Norton pointed out a rare anomolie with the Fujutsu LCD projector. While not moire, the distortion was easily corrected when the projector was moved slightly to a different distance and the lens re-zoomed.


Where did Jason Turk see this aleged demo with moire? When I showed it to him at CEDIA last year there certainly wasn't any. Could it be that because our two companies did not come to terms over having AVS represent SR, that perhap there are now sour grapes from the AVS camp (i.e. Jason)? I would certainly hope not.


The reasons we don't sell the material by itself are fairly simple. The company has no interest in being "bench marked." We don't want to be in the commodities market. We'll leave that to the guys who sell paint. To supportive dealers we sell replacement screen material and upgrade material (from CP1 to CP2 for instance) all the time. But Screen Research sells screenSYSTEMS and SOLUTIONS that it warranties and guarantees. If we sold the material by iteself, we wouldn't be able to guarantee its performace. Unlike ANY OTHER screen fabric on the market, there is NO HEM in this material. There are NO snaps, NO LACE and GROMMETS.


Alan, we can sell you the proper length of an inexpensive J-frame aluminum extrusion which you can then screw into your existing frame (yes you can curve it). Then you use the provided mating Pi-Grip system to lock it into the channel of the J-Frame. So yes, you can buy Screen Research material by itself. You just need to buy enough J frame to go with it. Price isn't the issue with J-frame. It only adds a few percent to the cost of the screen material.


Hope this helps set the record sraight. There are now several thousand satisfied Screen Research owners around the planet and not ONE of them have asked for their money back or found moire to be an issue. We welcome any evidence or claims to the contrary.


Good viewing and good listening!

John
 
#31 ·
Hi John


Thanks for chiming in.

I am un aware of any discussion between your company and Jason that would cause sour grapes. If their were we do not conduct business as such. Ive learned never burn any bridges in this industry. As large as it is it seams small and you never know when you will be working with or need something from someone.

I would like to think we are a little more mature then that:)


I think that is proven by the fact that a few of your dealers as hypocritical as it may seam use this very forum to sell your product and you do not see me chasing them away.


As far as moire. Thanks for mentioning Tom Norton. I did not want to throw his name into this without permission. Also there was a seminar. At this class there were several screens in use and the topic moire came up and it was demonstrated on your screen. Everyone at the class saw this. Your screen just so happened to be the one it was demonstrated on. People are mislead to believe how a material is made ( mesh/perf..hole size ) has an effect on this artifact. That has nothing to do with it. Moire is a interaction of pixel alignment from any fixed display passing through holes regardless how the holes are made or how small they are. You pointed out Tom Norton's experience.

That is my point in my above post. The projectors pixel resolution, zoom setting, angle to the screen all have an effect on moire including your material and because of this its incorrect to guaranty any material with holes to be moire free. From my experience with perf material moire is terrible and I was not able to rid of it regardless what I tried but with the Vutec soundscreen Im in heaven finally. I suspect the SR offers the same performance.

When I inquired about the SR material I was told it was not F/S separate and if I wanted lace and grommet ( all the other screen manufactures offer this service) the cost would be counter productive.

As a potential customer ( im not a dealer) cost was not the issue, I found it very disappointing the material cannot be bought separate considering "All" screen manufactures offer this service. Selling me the V channel and the fabric does not ensure that I will use the material or install it correctly ether. I still find this strange and frustrating but so be it. I would end up discarding the V channel anyway.


This caused me to look for an alternative. I ended up with the Vutec mesh material ( very close to SR, same gain ect ) which included the lace and grommet boarder to my specs for a very reasonable price with no questions asked or complications. I had no idea this stuff existed from Vutec and do not understand why it is not marketed better.


As SR grows maybe it will broaden its offerings. I understand you being just a distributor for the product are limited to the manufactures wishes.


At least now there is an affordable alternative to SR for those wanting a simular level of performance in a non perf material.


Yes I would love to personally try your material ( as Ive pursued on several occasions)but because I will not give up my curved screen frame I will wait until SR joins the ranks of its piers and offers it separate. Until then I have nothing else to compare my current reference and recommendation to.

Who knows in the future I may find myself boosting your product if indeed it meets your hype but to date I wouldn't know but lets keep the door open for that opportunity in hopes that day comes.


Thanks again for joining the conversation.
 
#32 ·
bigbaldguy,


I take great offense in your attack of Jason Turks bias. I own a Dalite Damat screen purchased from Jason/avscience, and over the last couple of years have contacted him many times about changing to a different screen. Even though he could have made a sell, he always recommended that I keep my current screen. I am always amazed at his honesty and willingness to help, something that I have rarely experienced in my many years of purchasing audio and video equiptment.


It is funny that you mention your 1 meter samples. When I asked about getting a larger sample I was told it wasn't possible because of the materials high cost. Interesting....... I was able to get a sample this size only because of a kind dealer that contacted me. When I started a thread offering to purchase a larger sample from forum members about a month or so ago you posted a reply but never offered this 1 meter sample you speak of.


I have been contemplating a cp2 purchase but have held back because of the upcoming hd on disc release as finances are an issue. After reading your comments, I have to say my interest in your product is now greatly diminished.


Tom
 
#33 ·
Alan, what black material did you place behind the screen? Did you get it from Vutec? Do you need to EQ or like Microperfs require? Does AVS sell Vutec?
 
#34 ·
Alan,


Do we both agree that TN would know moire` when he sees it and, and would have no problems describing it as moire` in the review? His description was about identical to vertical banding which is (as you're well aware) pretty common in LCDs.


Quoting TN (emphasis mine):
Quote:
... And the other 1% of the time? When I first set up the Fujitsu, I mounted it on a high shelf, about six feet off the ground, angling it down slightly at the screen. With this setup, there were subtle but noticeable, closely spaced vertical lines running down the entire image. This was nothing like the sort of moiré patterns I'm familiar with, or the uneven vertical bands you sometimes see with digital projectors, but just thin lines, evenly spaced across the screen. It wasn't pronounced, but you could see it without difficulty in large, uniformly bright areas. When I repositioned the projector, however, the lines disappeared at my normal viewing distance. No digital keystone correction was used at any time.
The slight angling is going to introduce some distortion to begin with. The Fujitsu is designed for a perpendicular angle to the screen. While TN goes at length to say that it isn't VB he's familiar with the description he uses sounds very much like VB: ... just thin lines, evenly spaced across the screen. It wasn't pronounced, but you could see it without difficulty in large, uniformly bright areas. Note that once the projector was corrected for proper incidence to the screen the artifact went away. So was the artifact the screen, or the projector?


According to TNs review, he saw no evidence of moire`. I'm not saying Jason didn't see moire` in a demonstration. I can say that for me, every claim that Screen Research has made has been met or surpassed by the actual product. The only thing I wish is that the black scrim was available at the time I bought my screen. It's not a cheap retrofit for an electrically retractable screen.


As far as selling just the material, I will say this: they (SR and St. John Group) want to have the customer pleased with the performance. The way to insure this is to sell solutions, with dealers installing the lower cost I and J frames to be certain it is correctly done. If not, you can get moire` and other artifacts. As a retailer, I'm sure the last thing you would want is an unhappy customer with a product not performing up to expectations. Can you see this from their perspective?

Added on edit

I'm going from memory here, so if I'm wrong John Caldwell can correct me. I believe that if a dealer doesn't install the I/J frame a waiver needs to be signed.



Cheers,
 
#35 ·
Hi John


There are others on this very forum that saw moire with the SR screen as well. All well respected people. I dont want to drop names so I will let them join in if they feel like it.


No one is claiming moire will be induced in every situation. I think you will agree depending on the projector, projector angle and several other possibilities it is possible and can happen.

With that and knowing the manufactures dealer when selling the product has no control over what projector will be used with the screen, projector angle ect and knowing it is possible then how can someone make a claim it cant happen when it clearly does and can.

By the way the people I know who saw the moire it was not coming from a LCD projector so it goes beyond the Fujitsu.


When I started this thread I had no intention of turning this into a Soundscreen verses SR competition but seeing as the claime was thrown in I had to jump in with my 2c.


So far this thread has brought attention to moire showing up from the use of 2 different projectors. Im sure before this thread dies and the forum picks up speed tomorrow we will hear from others both pro and con and some other projectors may join the list.


With that I would say mesh screens regardless brand are far less acceptable to moire then any perf or micro perf screen. Does that sound reasonable or would you say it is impossible for moire to appear on the SR?


As far as to all the excuses that keep popping up as to why they do not sell the material seperate Im sure all the manufactures feel the same but all still sell just the material regardless and find it good business.


It is still my interest to add myself as a SR user and hope the companies stand on not selling the material will change.
 
#36 ·
Thunder


Everything behind my screen (wall & speakers only) are black in color. I do have some black fabric covering spkr wire ect. I do plan on adding black fabric directly to the back of the entire screen material later this week. Its on my project list. I dont know if I will see any difference but Im going to make the effort anyway.
 
#37 ·
I forgot to mention through all this moire arguing and seeing as I have no personal experience with the SR screen Im open to trying a demo screen if it is available.


Seeing as I had a small amount from the soundscreen it sounds like I am the perfect canidate for this test. I will be the first to mention in deed no moire.


By the way..anyone willing to post a picture of a close up of the SR material ?


Thanks all. Tomorrow its back to the grind stone!!
 
#38 ·
Alan,


JJ had a closeup of the material in his review at Secrets...

Here's the link . It almost likes like an animation/CGI shot the way it sits on the page background over at Secrets.


Here's the two images (c) 2004 Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity


Image 1, wider shot:
http://206.225.87.49/volume_11_2/ima...ow-mag-150.jpg


Image 2, closer shot:
http://206.225.87.49/volume_11_2/ima...gh-mag-600.jpg



SRs claim with CP2 is > 70" no moire`. I have experience with one size (80") and multiple projectors (X1, Z2, 4805 and one other I forget) none of which had moire`.


In the end, it is SR and St. John's product to sell, and it is their choice to sell it in whatever fashion they see fit. If that's with I/J frame as the minimum entry point, it's their call.


Cheers,
 
#40 ·
Thank John Johnson -- I gave the site proper attribution too :)


Best,
 
#41 ·
Alan, how does the screen compare to your non-perfed screens in terms of brightness and image quality? Would speaker cloth be considered suitable as material for black backing?


Anyone know more about whether this screen needs to be EQ'd? On par with SR for acoustic transparency?
 
#42 ·
Thunder


I have the dimmest projector in the world..the very first Sim 300 with very first 16x9 chip & 120 watt bulb. I thought my image would suffer from this screen but does not. My blacks are improved as a benefit.

Looking at the material you can see right through it which scared me. For audio I would think it far better better then a perf material but I am not an audio expert and do not have the interments to take any measurements. To my ear my speakers sound fine and the mesh is finer then speaker grill cloth so it cant be that bad.

I plan to buy a roll of non reflective black fabric and running it across the back of my screen next weekend. My speakers are black so I will cut out the fabric to expose them.


This would be a good screen for one of review sites to look at and take some measurements.
 
#43 ·
I spoke with Vutec. The person that I spoke with tried to direct me to another screen with the black border being made of sound screen at the top of the screen where I could place my center. My impression was that he felt that the sound screen would compromise picture quality even though he did not openly say this. What he did say was that another fabric would offer uncompromised picture quality. I asked for a sample of the Sound Screen. The lack of a black backing seems to be a real negative for the screen as well. I'm guessing the black backing would make the screen too thick for the same TL at high freq. Made in the U.S or not, I'm now luke warm on the sound screen until I see if for myself.
 
#44 ·
Its funny, I dont think half the guys at Vutec know they sell this stuff.


Just add black material from any fabric store. How does SR handle this. I dont think their black material is sewn on is it..or am I wrong. It is attached to the back by the end user. I would not want any additional material between my screen and speakers.

If you must place your spkrs behind your screen then the SR or Soundscreen are your only choice unless you dont mind going with a perf screen.
 
#45 ·
I just spoke with Vutec about this screen trying to get a sample of this material. He said I would have to get a sample from a dealer. I have ordered many samples in the past from the manufacturer not a dealer. It sounds like you guys were able to get it directly from the manufacturer. Is this true? I will contact Jason Turk but I would be very suprised if he has a sample. He is the only non SR dealer I will order from.


The guy I spoke with said that resolution with HDTV will not be inferior to a solid screen. The picture quality should be the same. He also said that moire is not a problem with any type of projector. One good thing for me is that their screens are attached to the frame with velcro. I would be able to use my current Dalite cinema contour fixed frame just by unscrewing the snaps on the back of the frame. He did express concern about using my Benq 8700+ with a 45x80 inch screen because of it lowish calibrated lumens.


I hate when you contact a manufacturer and get a different story depending on who you speak with.


Tom
 
#46 ·
The Screen Research scrim is identical material to the main screen, just done in black.


Cheers,
 
#47 ·
Alan.


The SR black material isn't sewn on. It is just layed over the screen material once that it is installed and pressed into a recessed channel on the back of the frame.


I plan on using in-walls behind my screen and had planned to get some black grill cloth to put over the speakers. The woofers are black but have some shine to them. Do you think that the speakers covered with black grill cloth would show through during either very bright scenes or very dark ones? The inwalls come with a metal grill that I will ditch.


Tom
 
#48 ·
Tom


I would not worry about the shine. My speakers have shinny silver ribbons that I can see through my speaker grill but I have yet to see them at all through the screen. I also so not have any black material added yet to back of mine. I do how ever have silver duck tape holding black carpet over a window behind my screen and I can see that when light from a bright scene hits the screen. Because of that Im definitely adding black fabric.
 
#49 ·
Here's a closer pic of Vutec's soundscreen from my second review

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/15.jpg


Definately transparent for sound.


I you think the "mesh" is too loose and you can see it from your sitting position you may want to go with the "doubled up" mesh that Screen Research uses.


This gives them reduced potential for moire and slightly better gain. ~1


The astonishing thing about the Screen Research material is it can be purchased at apolstry, boating/material shops, and on the internet under "sunscreen" for about $1 a square foot. Screen Research just happens to be marketing geniuses for finding people that are willing to spend $2000 and up on a nylon mesh screen.
 
#50 ·
Is it possible that adding a black backing that the screen could help produce a superior black level versus a traditional screen (white or grey)?


In terms of black backing, what about black Guilford cloth?
 
#51 ·
BTW the Screen Research material isn't in a crosshatch pattern like the Vutec...it's woven.


I would post a close up picture of their material but then you would easily be able to find it on the internet.


I don't want to kill off any SR sales. I admire their ability to sell cheap material for ULTRA premium prices :eek:


maybe when they produce an affordable 5000 lumen projector I'll give up my Silverstar and do a 14' wide 2.35 mesh screen :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top