The official Vutec screen thread. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 400 Old 07-07-2005, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The Ultimate perf screen..well sorta. I say sorta because its not perforated its a fine mesh. Its very simular to the well known Screen Research but available at a fraction of the cost. Because of this I dont under stand the lack of attention this screen is getting or not getting. Because of the fine mesh sound quality is excellent. To my ears its acoustically transparent and neutral. Im running a set of magnapans. Im talking about the Vutec sound screen. It comes in white or grey. I can only speak of the white. Im told the material is not painted but is the natural color of the material. The gain is .8 or 8.5
My eyes cannot see the holes or texture beyond 2 feet.

Here is a close up of the material.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_009.jpg

You definitely want to hang black material directly behind the screen. If not any thing reflective such as a silver tweeter cone on a spkr or anything of bright color will become visible if your sitting at the right angle as the light from a projector passes through the screen and hits the object.
Because of the fine mesh I would guess 30 to 40% of the screen is missing so when watching a movie you could say you missed 40% of the show:)
In reality 40% of what your watching is passing through the screen.

Its amazing how transparent the material is when holding it up to the light yet it captures enough of the light to reflect a watchable picture. I am using a old Sim 300. The first 16x9 chip dlp and this machine is dim and it lit up this screen just fine. In fact adding black material behind the screen adds depth and 3d appearance and increases black level. Something Cineramix ( Peter) on this forum has made reference to many times.
My screen is a custom curved Lace & Grommet 235:1 ratio from Stewart. I have all their screen materials including their micro perf but because I like to sit so close to my screen I could still see the perfs. I gave Vutec the dimensions and they were able to sell me just the material to fit my screen. Now I have my spkrs behind the screen with no visible structure. It is so cool having the audio come from behind the screen just like a real theater.
I want to comment on moire (spelling)
I can see this artifact with every perf I have tried with my 720P dlp including this material but with this material its barely visible and with just the slightest click of the projectors focus I was able to eliminate the moire. I did not have to defocus the image to the point it caused any softness at all. Displaying fine text appears sharp and clear.
Anyone wanting the Screen Research but cant afford it this is the next closest thing yet affordable. I highly recommend it.
Heres a pic of my bastardized screen. Stewart Frame/Vutec soundscreen material.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_0071.jpg

Heres a pic from the up coming movie "Herbie Fully Loaded" in 185:1 HD
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_020.jpg

Samuel Jackson in the up coming movie "The Man" scope HD. Looks like hes ready to kick some a#$
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_0151.jpg

Thats all folks.
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post #2 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 07:07 AM
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That's very nice. What screen size is that?

Btw, I'm thinking about going with a Da-Lite Audio Vision screen, however I'm unsure at what point the holes dissapear at. Any idea?
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post #3 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 07:43 AM
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I'd recommend getting a sample. The Audio Vision is a larger perf pattern so it is visible to the naked eye at distances. To some it is not bothersome, but each person is different.
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post #4 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 07:45 AM
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Is your camera skewed towards blue? The screen shots are showing a definite color shift and I'm hoping that's the source of the shift.

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post #5 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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John

Yes the pics do look blue. My grey scale is dead on. Maybe Ill take a pick of a grey ramp and see how it turns out. I also had some lights on in the back of the room they may contribute to the color shift. Ill have to address this now that youve brought this to my attention. Im on a mission.
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post #6 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention the pic with Herbie is a night time scene shot at dusk and has a blue tint to it. Instead of showing bright images which is easy to do I was trying to show the projectors black level and contrast in a darker scene which is some what enhanced by the screen material with black material behind it.

eRob

Viewing is 8 feet wide. Thanks!
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post #7 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 09:45 AM
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I'm in the process of building my theater now, (at the sheet rocking stage.) I was hoping there was a less expensive SR type screen. I don't need perfect audio transparency because I'm not an audiophile. So long as it sounds clear to a layman, and the sound comes from behind the screen, that's all I want from the audio characteristics.

It sounds like moire is not a problem, but I'm a bit concerned about the .85 gain. I haven't picked the PJ I will use yet so I don't know if that will be a concern.
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post #8 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 09:52 AM
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Alan,

It has to be the camera. Even the shot with Samuel L. Jackson's forehead, has a bluish cast to it.

Not as severe as the Herbie shot, but it's there.

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post #9 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 09:54 AM
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Which brings me to another question.

What camera are you using for the screen shots? I can never get a screen shot to come out this nice.

Cheers,

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post #10 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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John

Its a Canon G3 which is now a few generations old. I really do not know how to use it. There is a mode that turns off the flash and thats what Im using but I have no idea what else the camera is doing. Im going to mess with this again later tonight. Youve got me curious now to whats going on.
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post #11 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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skogan

Im 8 feet wide and using the old Sim 300. First generation 16x9 and a very dim projector. If you have controlled lighting in your room you will be fine. All current projectors are far brighter then the original Sim 300. I can also leave lighting on in the back of my room and the image is still bright enough to watch tv and sporting events. I choose not to leave the lights on when watching a movie. I think you will be just fine with this material. The 8.5 gain is the same as the SR if Im not mistaken but Im not up on their material so maybe someone else can chime in.

My intent by mentioning SR in the same thread is not to take any thunder aware from SR. Ive heard nothing but great things about that screen from competent people. The Vutec soundscreen is an alternative and the next best thing in my opinion over any perf screen if you are need of an acoustical transparent screen.

Thanks!!
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post #12 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 10:34 AM
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BTW Alan, the newer SR screen options (J and I frames) are dramatically less expensive than their previous offerings.

You should get in touch with John Caldwell (bigbaldguy) to discuss them.


Cheers,

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post #13 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi John

I did indeed give SR first shot but my needs were out of the ordinary. I needed just the fabric with or without lace and grommet boarder so I could continue the use of my curved screen frame but nether were available as an option so thats what sent me looking for an alternative. I did not want anything perf from past experience. I do not have anything negative to say about perf screens and their acoustical performance ( I do not have the expertise to comment one way or another) but I can see the perforations from my seating distance which eliminates them as an option for me.
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post #14 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 11:15 AM
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BTW, are the columns in the corners for bass absorbtion, and if so, may I ask what they are made from?
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post #15 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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skogan

They are cosmetic only. They are placed through out the room but in the picture you can only see the front two.
They are made from PVC tubing. The end caps are readily available at your local Home Depot. We then covered the pillar in a marbleized wall paper.
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post #16 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 02:07 PM
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I am replacing this exact screen with a SR Screenpix 2 screen. The reason? Moire effect. Viewing distance of 13 feet, IF 7205. The Moire at this viewing distance can be extremely bothersome. PLEASE check this out before buying.
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post #17 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Tangram
Dont fall for that one. SR also has Moire. We just had a customer order a new screen ( solid) because of this and said he was done with acoustic screens.

Tangram I think you will find out the material or fabric is the very close to the same and you will indeed have the same problem.
I think a projectors throw long/short and angle will have more of an effect then you changing the material. Another projector would have been the solution.

I have hardly any at all and I mean just a slight hint and with just a click of my focus it is gone. Tangram you say your is bad. If we both have the same material but both have different results then Im sure I am on the right path with it having to do more with our projectors specifics and throw distance ect.

Please be alert that "ALL" acoustic screens are acceptable to producing Moire.

The SR and Vutec soundscreen are less visible then a perf but they still have it.

Jason Turk attended a demo of the SR and it displayed moire. Feel free to contact him for the specifics.
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post #18 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 03:19 PM
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I demoed the screen using an IF 5700 and it displayed no Moire. The SR screen is not a weave. The Moire is caused by the interference pattern that two intersecting grids create. What is your viewing distance? At 15 feet, the Moire is almost invisible. But as I said, my viewing distance is 13 ' and Moire can be extremely noticeable. Looking at the SR fabric, I would be VERY surprised if it was capable of generating Moire given the fact that the fact is not woven. Not trying to be belligerent. Very interested in your comments.
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post #19 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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My front row is 8 feet. Ill post pics for you tonight.
I wish I could get someone very respected by all to post to this thread that indeed the SR has moire but he may want to remain neutral because of his position but I will ask him. Also the demo Jason attended had moire as well. PM him and he will tell you all about it.
Our customer who ordered the solid screen material just had the SR and is now going back to a solid screen so again I think projector and throw of the projector and the angle the image is hitting the screen all play a roll and yield different effects.

Im going to focus my image dead on and take some pics and I will defy anyone to see moire but yet you claim your experience is terrible. Not one person walking into my room would ever see it unless I point it out to them and you can only see it under certain conditions that almost never reproduce themselves. I will then de focus my image to completely eliminate the moire and display text so you can see by the term "de focus" im not de focused but indeed I've just barley click my focus button and with that its completely gone. So you and I have the same material yet completely different results. How can that be?..its the projectors throw and install angle ect.
I was sent a sample of the SR material last year ( not anything of any size that had any worth ) and Im looking at the same thing. I cant say they are made the same but that aside I will ask this person who no one here will argue with to post about moire being associated with the SR material. It does not hurt to ask.

Ill post some pics later tonight so you can see my results are null compared to your experience with the soundscreen. Thats if I can even capture it with a camera. By the way what is the resolution of your projector..is it 720P. If it is then we both have the same pixels hitting the screen.
I wish SR would sell just the material. I tried to talk them into it but it was a no go. Just as long as I paid for the material and they have their money why would they care what I do with it. Every other manufacture will sell you just the material so I found this kinda strange. I think its to everyones benefit to test these materials in your own home under your own conditions. Looking at one in a store is not the same thing.
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post #20 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 03:55 PM
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The store I deal with had a room set up with an IF 5700 and the Clearpix2 screen. I believe you when you say your Moire is very subtle. I also thought screen/projector geometry plays a role. But I will play around and see if I can reduce the Moire more. I have been able to minimize it by changing the image size (effectively changing the "grid" size of the projected image) but it is still easily noticeable, esp. on large white parts of the image. This issue is really the only burning issue I have before I can achieve a truly excellent, 1080i projected image. If I can beat Moire, I will be ecstatic.
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post #21 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Tangram

You can also use the depixel lens. I have one and if I put it in front of my projector it works. It did not work when I tried it with micro perf.
I am not using the lens though as I can see a slight loss in contrast.
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post #22 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Tangram
Here we go. Its hard to see but look close third line down under the word color. Its there. It is only visible in bright areas but as you can see its barly visable. The lines are traveling bottom left diagonal to upper right.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_032.jpg

Here we are with just a click of the focus button. Im not derfocusing the image but by clicking the button it just starts to focus. As you an see the image is no different in sharpness but the moire is completly gone.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_040.jpg

You should be experiencing the same thing, nothing different. If you say your Moire is very bad then something is wrong or it could have something to do with your projector.
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post #23 of 400 Old 07-08-2005, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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John

I think the camera is at fault. Here are a few more pictures. I choose something without any dominating blue in it yet the highlites have a blue ting to them.

Son of Mask HD 16x9. You can see the light around his nose is blue in color.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_044.jpg


Gulivers travels HD 16x9. Again the image takes on that blue tint thats not in the image when watching it. I need to take a photography course.
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/Picture_043.jpg
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post #24 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 01:13 AM
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I have some samples from Screen Research. I guess I need to get some samples of this fabric. A retractable version might work for me . Some compromise for movies and center channel at the same height for music when the screen come up may work for me.

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post #25 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 03:30 AM
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Alan, thx for posting the pix. Maybe I am overly sensitive to these sorts of things! I played around a bit last night and was able to eliminate most Moire when watching Ice Age (a good one because transfer is very clean and there are lots of bright white, uniform scenes.

Now you have me wondering if I should cancel my order for the SR. This probably does not make a lot of sense but the Moire seems to come and go. Sometimes it is very obvious, and then last night, I had trouble reproducing it at all on one of the films, Winged Migration, where I have really been annoyed by it.

Again, thanks for your efforts here. I think that I may have to rethink my pending purchase.
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post #26 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 11:15 AM
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Where is the Vutec manufactured? In the U.S. or not?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #27 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger
Where is the Vutec manufactured? In the U.S. or not?
Pompano Beach, Florida Tel: (800) 770-4700 | Tel: (954) 545-9000
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post #28 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangram
Alan, thx for posting the pix. Maybe I am overly sensitive to these sorts of things! I played around a bit last night and was able to eliminate most Moire when watching Ice Age (a good one because transfer is very clean and there are lots of bright white, uniform scenes.
I could only see mine in a bright scene as well. It took me a day to even notice I had it but I was lucky in being able to eliminate it as described. Best of luck.
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post #29 of 400 Old 07-09-2005, 04:55 PM
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Ahhhh, nothing like made in the good ole U.S.A. :)

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post #30 of 400 Old 07-10-2005, 12:00 AM
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Alan,

We make one meter samples of ClearPix 2 readily available. Always have. Please contact me through the Stjohngroup.com web site and we'll get you set up.

There have been three major indepth reviews of CP2 to date by some pretty reputable magazines (Ultimate AV, Home Theater and next month in Robb Report's Home Entertainment Design) None of these resepected reviewers (Tom Norton, Scott Wilkinson or David Birch Jones) has seen ANY signs of moire. Neither the ISF nor THX could find any signs of moire even under RIGOROUS laboratory testing.

If any one on this forum is seeing moire with CP2, it's because they the screen material in backwards. If you can see the weave of the CP2 material at normal seating distance, again, you may be looking at it backwards.

Tom Norton pointed out a rare anomolie with the Fujutsu LCD projector. While not moire, the distortion was easily corrected when the projector was moved slightly to a different distance and the lens re-zoomed.

Where did Jason Turk see this aleged demo with moire? When I showed it to him at CEDIA last year there certainly wasn't any. Could it be that because our two companies did not come to terms over having AVS represent SR, that perhap there are now sour grapes from the AVS camp (i.e. Jason)? I would certainly hope not.

The reasons we don't sell the material by itself are fairly simple. The company has no interest in being "bench marked." We don't want to be in the commodities market. We'll leave that to the guys who sell paint. To supportive dealers we sell replacement screen material and upgrade material (from CP1 to CP2 for instance) all the time. But Screen Research sells screenSYSTEMS and SOLUTIONS that it warranties and guarantees. If we sold the material by iteself, we wouldn't be able to guarantee its performace. Unlike ANY OTHER screen fabric on the market, there is NO HEM in this material. There are NO snaps, NO LACE and GROMMETS.

Alan, we can sell you the proper length of an inexpensive J-frame aluminum extrusion which you can then screw into your existing frame (yes you can curve it). Then you use the provided mating Pi-Grip system to lock it into the channel of the J-Frame. So yes, you can buy Screen Research material by itself. You just need to buy enough J frame to go with it. Price isn't the issue with J-frame. It only adds a few percent to the cost of the screen material.

Hope this helps set the record sraight. There are now several thousand satisfied Screen Research owners around the planet and not ONE of them have asked for their money back or found moire to be an issue. We welcome any evidence or claims to the contrary.

Good viewing and good listening!
John

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Grace Motif, Inc
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www.gracemotif.com
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