HIGH POWER a Review! Part 1 - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 3787 Old 03-08-2007, 08:42 PM
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My 126" diag HP is scheduled to arrive Tueday; will be my first screen, to go with my first projector (RS1), supposed to arrive tomorrow. I don't think I'll sleep the next few nights.
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post #512 of 3787 Old 03-08-2007, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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That should be a bright setup. I estimate 25 foot lamberts in normal bulb mode and 35 in high mode. It will rock.
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post #513 of 3787 Old 03-08-2007, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

My 126" diag HP is scheduled to arrive Tueday; will be my first screen, to go with my first projector (RS1), supposed to arrive tomorrow. I don't think I'll sleep the next few nights.

Your life is about to change.

Joe Clark

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post #514 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 04:45 AM
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I got my screen a little over a week ago. It is a 119" pull down with a black case. I am using it with my Z3 projector and I just upgraded dvd players to an A2.

I have not had too much of a chance to watch anything yet. I got it mounted last saturday and watched about half of Backdraft and holy cow, even on low lamp and creative contrast it is bright enough to watch with curitans open. I am really pleased with my purchase. I have a few movies needing to be watched this weekend, Borat and Sherry Baby and a few of my new HD titles as well, I will try to report back next week.
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post #515 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I understand that, but the comments are negative generalizations about a company and a product that aren't based on fact. I didn't choose that frame because I wanted a rigid frame with a particular look (similar to my Stewart FireHawk frame). From what I've read, the Permwall works well (and as advertised) if you mount it the way the company suggests. It's not that the design itself is flawed, and I think it's inappropriate for someone to condemn a product and a company based on inaccurate information. It's not helpful and it's bad AVS etiquette.

Joe, if you read my posts above you will see my comments are about my ownership experience w/ the product (why would you slam me by assuming I didn't own the product?). The frame is the item in question, not the screen itself. My delivery came w/ NO installation instructions. I read posts above mine describing the approach I took and assumed that the frame was capable of that method. A post following Joe's drive by shooting tells me it was designed to be mounted by anchoring each frame piece. That is news to me, why didn't DaLite tell me so? I'll try that and see if my results are better, but it's a lot of slack to be removed and I'm sceptical that I am getting that much frame deflection; we'll see. Dalite instructions on installation would have saved me time and money in avoiding my wasted effort of this install. By the way, first blush, the screen itself looks nice.

PS: This morning I agree my POS comment was aggressively strong. It was the frustration talking (which could have been avoided by DaLite instructions).
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post #516 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smile View Post

The frame of 4 aluminum posts costs >$200 and it doesn't work as designed? And the answer is "yea, they do that", so do some jury-rig that minimizes the fault and live w/ it? What a POS product, or company, to continue to market a flawed product. It ain't like this thing has moving parts.

VERY informative post there.

Draper also has a similar "pos" frame. These "semi-rigid" frames are designed for rigid mounting of all sides to a wall or niche...not hanging. Iirc it even says so in the install instructions on Da-Lite and/or Drapers website. If you hang these you may very well need to "rig" them. If they are used for the intended purpose you don't. There is a reason the permwall is much cheaper than the other frames from da-lite.

But i do agree with you that just about all the fixed frame screens cost too much for what you get. Seems there's more engineering time and parts spent on roll-up screens yet they are usually cheaper than fixed frames for some reason.

edit:
Sorry Smile...you posted your edit as I was typing.
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post #517 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 07:26 AM
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I had a HP 119" paired with a table mounted panny ax100u.

Yesterday I got a ceiling mount and now have a panny ax100u mounted 8" or so higher than the top of the same HP screen.

Brightness may be off a little. Not noticable to me yet. I hope to do some more critical watching this weekend.

I do plan on getting a 12" extension pole for my mount to lower the projector a bit (I have to use a bit of keystoning with the mount right now). I also plan to raise the screen 1-2" this weekend. Once I do all that, my image brightness will likely improve (a little) and I should be able to get rid of all of the keystoning.

I will say this though - I'm still VERY happy with the HP even with a ceiling mounted projector. The cone (for me anyway) doesn't appear as bad as I've read.

And i'm just tickled to have the cables off the floor and get rid of the table in the middle of my room. My room feels more open now.
I was also lucky or planned things correctly. My projector is mounted right next to both a power outlet on the ceiling and a cable conduit I ran during construction. I would benefit from a short 18 inch power cord, but everything came together perfectly.

Now I just need to paint!

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post #518 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smile View Post

Joe, if you read my posts above you will see my comments are about my ownership experience w/ the product (why would you slam me by assuming I didn't own the product?). The frame is the item in question, not the screen itself. My delivery came w/ NO installation instructions. I read posts above mine describing the approach I took and assumed that the frame was capable of that method. A post following Joe's drive by shooting tells me it was designed to be mounted by anchoring each frame piece. That is news to me, why didn't DaLite tell me so? I'll try that and see if my results are better, but it's a lot of slack to be removed and I'm sceptical that I am getting that much frame deflection; we'll see. Dalite instructions on installation would have saved me time and money in avoiding my wasted effort of this install. By the way, first blush, the screen itself looks nice.

PS: This morning I agree my POS comment was aggressively strong. It was the frustration talking (which could have been avoided by DaLite instructions).

I had some frustration, too, while mounting my screen. It was a real workout and I think I lost 3-4 pounds in sweat. At the end of the day, though, it is a wonderful screen material and worth all the effort. As I think back to my FireHawk, I suspect the only reason it was so much easier than the HP was the stretchy nature of the material. The HP fabric isn't like that.

Good luck getting your issues resolved. You'll love the screen when you do. (And I missed your earlier posts, so my apologies for that.)

Joe Clark

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post #519 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 03:21 PM
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u d'man Joe. And I'll ditto the comment about spilling blood, sweat, and tears while putting the screen together.
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post #520 of 3787 Old 03-09-2007, 05:07 PM
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Great review!
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post #521 of 3787 Old 03-10-2007, 06:05 AM
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smile mine came with instructions if yours did not look at da-lite site http://www.dalite.com/products/spec_download.php it shows you how to mount or call them they will talk to you. as many have said it was tough to get snaps on but i followed the directions and there is not a fold or wrinkle to be seen
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post #522 of 3787 Old 03-10-2007, 08:35 PM
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btw here some photo of my wall (Behr Silverstar paint) vs my sample of Da lite

It's more or less acurate and well grainy (sorry didn't have a tripod, used a high ISO)



89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #523 of 3787 Old 03-10-2007, 09:01 PM
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That's exactly how I got hooked on the HP. I was like a moth to the flame.

Joe Clark

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post #524 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 04:50 AM
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So I watched Borat and we watched Willy Wonka on HD DVD last night and I am very pleased my my screen.. BUT.. I have to find a way to mount it right to the wall. I have it rigged up on shelf mounts and then it hangs down with heavy duty eye bolts. The problem, it sticks out about a foot off of the wall. No big deal but I am noticing some screen door, which I never have before. Its not a constant, just when the scene is light and bright.

Since I don't have anything to compare the screen with I am going to maybe pick up some poster board or black out cloth to hang next to it for pictures.

I have already sold a HP screen to a guy at work and he is trying to get his buddy on board as well.
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post #525 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

That should be a bright setup. I estimate 25 foot lamberts in normal bulb mode and 35 in high mode. It will rock.


Hi Tryg - the usual thanks for your great contribution to this site ...

I too am keen to get HD-1 / RS-1 with HP in the Uk as I value an LCD level of vibrancy to a 'Cinematic' CRT / DLP set up.

Unusually for the UK (dont ask me why ....) I too am looking for the largest screen I can install in a room measuring 18' L by 15' wide.

I think 16:9 is the format however I am first to admit I really dont know what config is most suitable. - I will principally view BluRay 1080P new material to get best from set up. - Presumably your latest set up needs addition of Anamorphic (sp?!) lense to RS-1 which no doubt is hugely expensive? - This being so, then 16:9 it is.

Ok, enough rambling --

With 15' wide room a 12' wide screen (6.8' high? in 7' 6" H room) would seem to be maximum.

Seating can be at any distance as can PJ, however I am considering mounting PJ lense around 16' and viewing nr 18'. - Lense would be ideally c 6' 9" whilst viewing at 3' H - ie near 4' off axis at c 17'

Is this too far off axis? - After all, separation between 2 viewers will be 4' horizontally

What is estimated angle for 4' deviation at c. 17' - perhaps somebody would be good enough to remind me of the math required to make such calculations.

I need to do calculations at 16' to 19' for lense to screen (pj can be recessed behind viewers in window recess - wood shuttered betwen pj and glass)

I am very concerned if I simply go for optimum and mount behind our heads that it is not as neat or convenient as a slide away roof mount and that the fan exhaust (which i shall run on Hi) will be right in my ear!!

I am also considering making an exhaust from fan outlet to turn through 180 deg and trunk out of window! - anybody think that will deal with noise (certainly stop draught!)

Basically i am looking for suggestions given room size. - It is wood shuttered and dark except light wall, ceiling and floor coverings - will darken edges around screen on end wall
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post #526 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 09:46 AM
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The 30 degree viewing angle for the HP. Does this mean that looking from the screen to the viewing area that 30 degrees to the right and 30 degrees to the left of the center line bisecting the viewing area produces acceptable viewing? The graph at the start of this thread seems to show unity gain at 20 degrees off center which does not match 30 and is confusing to me. Which sadly is easy to do.

I want to do a RS-1 based 115 x 49 scope which will run 87 x 49 in 16x9. 12 ft seating, projector would fit the room at 14 to 18 ft throw.



Thanks.
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post #527 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidcrowe View Post

I after nearly a full year of having my 139" wide model B (purchased from Jason at AVS) I am still thrilled at having purchased it. You have to see one to believe how great it really is. The small samples from dalite do not do the installed screen justice.

I thought that the model b pulldown only went up to 106 inches? Is it possible to get a model b in a size like 110?
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post #528 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Granger View Post

I think 16:9 is the format however I am first to admit I really dont know what config is most suitable. -

I think it depends on your viewing preferences. I will say there are more and more people going to Cinemascope screens. A year ago very few. Over the last 4 months 1 of every 4 I sell.

I would give it try. With HD-DVD the Native aspect ratio on a lot of movies is 2.4 so fill up the screen!

Do you need all the fancy processors and anamorphic lenses? Absolutley not. Zooming out some of the new 1080p projector yield superb results. You can always go to the next level with the other add ons when you want.

I'd shoot for 10' or even 11' wide 2.35 or 2.40 screen. Why not, life is short
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post #529 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 01:50 PM
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Q ....With 15' wide room a 12' wide screen (6.8' high? in 7' 6" H room) would seem to be maximum.

Seating can be at any distance as can PJ, however I am considering mounting PJ lense around 16' and viewing nr 18'. - Lense would be ideally c 6' 9" whilst viewing at 3' H - ie near 4' off axis at c 17'

Is this too far off axis? - After all, separation between 2 viewers will be 4' horizontally

Edit: Appears to be c 15 deg vert above viewer - this would appear to be 3 times too much to get good gain using Tryg cone calc - is that right?

I am very concerned if I simply go for optimum and mount behind our heads that it is not as neat or convenient as a slide away roof mount and that the fan exhaust (which i shall run on Hi) will be right in my ear!!

I am also considering making an exhaust from fan outlet to turn through 180 deg and trunk out of window! - anybody think that will deal with noise (certainly stop draught!)

Basically i am looking for suggestions given room size. - It is wood shuttered and dark except light wall, ceiling and floor coverings - will darken edges around screen on end wall[/quote]
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post #530 of 3787 Old 03-11-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone Granger View Post

Q ....With 15' wide room a 12' wide screen (6.8' high? in 7' 6" H room) would seem to be maximum.

With a screen that tall and a roof that low, where do you plan on putting your center channel speaker? Personally, I think you'll be much better off doing a 12' wide 2.35:1 screen in that room. The vertical height of the screen will be 5' and give you greater flexibility for center channel speaker placement.

Do you have more than 1 row of seating? With a 6.8' tall screen you will definitely have problems with an additional row of seating.
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post #531 of 3787 Old 03-12-2007, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by video_bit_bucket View Post

The 30 degree viewing angle for the HP. Does this mean that looking from the screen to the viewing area that 30 degrees to the right and 30 degrees to the left of the center line bisecting the viewing area produces acceptable viewing? The graph at the start of this thread seems to show unity gain at 20 degrees off center which does not match 30 and is confusing to me. Which sadly is easy to do.

I want to do a RS-1 based 115 x 49 scope which will run 87 x 49 in 16x9. 12 ft seating, projector would fit the room at 14 to 18 ft throw.



Thanks.

Da-Lite answered my question today. Below is the relevant quote.

"The "viewing angle" does mean what you described, that the optimal viewing area will be within 30 degrees to the left and to the right of the screen. Now once you reach that mark it does not mean that you will not be able to view the screen, as that is the point that you can start to notice a decrease in the brightness. "
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post #532 of 3787 Old 03-18-2007, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes many call me asking if the High Power will work if they veiw off axis. YES! at 30 degrees or more you will just see a dimmer image (much like that of a standard matte white screen). You get the benefits of the high power by sitting in the sweetspot. theres nothing wrong with not sitting in the sweetspot...you just dont get the higher gain
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post #533 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 07:11 AM
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Okay--I'm having a horrible time deciding on a screen. Da-lite told me matte white would be best for my installation, someone else told me cinemavision, another told me video spectra, someone else recommended a high-contrast screen and then I stumble onto this high power review. Now I'm *thoroughly* confused.

First of all, can someone--ANYONE--tell me what these angles mean? Da-lite says the viewing angle for matte white is 50 degrees, video spectra is 35 degrees and high power is 30 degrees. Okay--so what happens at these angles with these screens? Do they go black? I like Tryg's chart, but it confuses me even more. Let me explain.

Okay--the "ideal" viewing distance from a screen is 1.5 times the screens width. Well, do the math. If you sit dead center of the screen at this distance, you'll be at 0 degrees in the center of the screen, and the gain will be 3.1. However, you'll be at an angle of 18 degrees from the edges of the screen, and according to the chart you'll have a gain of 1.0 there. It seems that would result in horrible, horrible, horrible hotspotting. If this doesn't occur (and I'm assuming it doesn't or no one would buy the screen), why not?

Anyway, I need some help here. I'll post my theater room setup here in a bit so everyone can see dimensions and so-on, and perhaps give me some good advice. FYI, I had sort-of decided on the video spectra (1.5 gain), but someone told me that even the most moderate amount of ambient light would wash out the screen. Plus, if it only has a 5 degree advantage over the high power, why not just buy the high power? My light is 100% controllable, but face fact--sometimes I'll have a light or two on watching ballgames, or someone might be playing an arcade game while the rest of us are watching movies. Ugh... why can't this be any easier?
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post #534 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 07:55 AM
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Okay--here's a link to a pdf that includes 3 pages for my media room:

http://www.theridgeatsouthmountain.c.../mediaroom.pdf

The first page is simply the most extreme angle from the center of the screen to the seat furthest from the center. This angle is 33 degrees. The second page, however, shows the most extreme angle (right-most seat to the left-most corner of the screen), and the angle is 48 degrees. I assume you plan for the worst angle, correct?

As you can see, the back part of the room isn't being used for any seating--it's going to contain a few arcade and pinball machines, along with a bar. The seating shown is a very rough approximation of a couch and two recliners--nothing too fancy.

Oh! And the third page is speaker placement--I made this for the electrician. Any comments on this are welcome. I wired for a 7.2 surround system (is it bad putting both subs on the same side of the room? This is where they will be most out-of-the-way). Thanks!
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post #535 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 08:06 AM
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It can be confusing. To answer some of your main concerns, though, there will be no hotspotting with the High Power. It's extremely even across its entire surface, no matter where you sit. As to the angles, it depends on how far away you sit from the screen and how far from the lens. The closer your eyes are to the lens, the brighter the screen will be; it's that simple. If you draw a line from the lens to the center of the screen, then draw a line from there to your eyes in the seating position, that's the angle you need to worry about. More than about 15 degrees and you'll lose a lot of gain.

Best thing to do is to send for some samples from Da-Lite. Contact them via their web site. I rigged up a way of placing the sample on the wall so I could see it from the various seating positions. Do that and you'll be able to tell right away which is more appropriate for you. If you don't already have a screen, you'll have to rig up two samples together. That way, side by side, you can tell their relative brightness.

I had to lower my projector considerably to get the lens closer to eye level. When I did, the difference was remarkable - the image lit up like a torch. I sit about 12' back and no more than a couple of feet away from the lens from the various seats. If you can get close to that, the HP is a great screen. If your seats are much outside that narrow viewing cone, you might want to look at other materials.

Joe Clark

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post #536 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 08:22 AM
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Yup--samples arrived literally 5 mins ago here at my office. Not what I expected *at all*. I basically expected the HP to look like a reflector on a car, but instead it actually looks dullish (until you let a light right beside your head hit it). It's pretty brilliant! And the high contrast screens are *dark*. I mean really, really dark. Much more so than I thought they would be.

Here's my problem... this is my first projector setup, so I have no projector yet. Our house is supposed to be completed in July, so I've been waiting to see if 1080p prices come down even more, or if a newer version of my current choice (Sanyo PLV-Z5) comes out. Thus, I'm not really sure how to test these things out short of going ahead and buying a projector.

In one of my previous posts I had a link (http://www.theridgeatsouthmountain.c.../mediaroom.pdf) that shows my media room setup with the most extreme angles. The vertical placement of the projector isn't a concern to me... I planned to ceiling mount it, but if I have to mount it on a tabletop that'll be fine, too. The horizontal angles I feel are my most limiting--48 degrees to the extreme edge from the right chair to the left corner of the screen.

One thing, too, is ambient lighting. I do have 100% control over lighting, but at the same time (realistically) there will likely be some ambient light in the room when I'm trying to watch a movie. I plan on having several arcade machines in the room, so one of my friends might choose to get sentimental and play a game of Gauntlet instead of watching the movie with the rest of the crowd.
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post #537 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 08:42 AM
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Jonathan: The relevant angle for the HP screen is that from the projector lens, to the screen, and then to your eye. If the pj is not far from your eyes, then this angle is ~ 0 FOR ANY POINT ON THE SCREEN. That's why the brightness that the viewer sees is so uniform over the whole screen. For a viewer sitting near the outer edge of the screen, do the calculation for different points on the screen: you will find that the angle varies very little for different points on the screen; therefore even though the image will not be as bright as for the viewer right near the lens, the level of brightness will be nearly the same over the whole screen.

If the pj is not mounted so close to your eyes, you can do the geometry to see how much the angle (lens-screen-eye) varies for different points on the screen, for different sitting positions.
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post #538 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 09:00 AM
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Ahhhhhhhhh..... so this is why people mount a projector as far back in the room as possible even though it causes a loss in lumens because the projector has to throw the light further, correct? And the "maximum" angle I show (48 degrees) in my drawing is incorrect?

See if this makes more sense. Is this the correct way to calculate the viewing angle? Is 29 degrees the number I would use to determine the "worst" angle for this seating position horizontally? I guess for the "true" angle I'd need to take into account the 3-dimensional space vertically and horizontally. I can do this mathematically, but it's difficult to do graphically. But first, is this the correct way to calculate this number? Or is the angle from the normal to the surface of the screen, which in this case would result in a number 1/2 of 29 degrees, or 14.5 degrees (boy would that be nice).
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post #539 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 09:00 AM
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Sorry--here's the link to the new drawing:

http://www.theridgeatsouthmountain.c...ewingangle.pdf
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post #540 of 3787 Old 03-19-2007, 09:07 AM
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Okay... in the materials I just received from Da-Lite, they call the viewing angle the angle from the *center of the screen* to the left or right-most seat. They don't even mention the projector location. This is getting almost comical. Based on this criteria, however, my most extreme seat will be 33 degrees give-or-take. The question is, what is the correct, absolute way to determine this number? From projector-screen-person, and is the angle the full angle (as in the 29 degrees above), or the angle from the normal (14.5 degrees), or do you simply measure it from the center of the screen to the seat and determine that angle? I guess owning a projector could make this easier for me, but can you really tell from an 8.5x11 sheet? Can I mount a flashlight pointed at these things and walk around to get some idea?
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