HIGH POWER a Review! Part 1 - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 3787 Old 07-13-2007, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

To me, the reason for spending an extra $1700 for the JVC over the Pearl is for the better blacks and overall contrast.
I'd hate to buy the High Power and lose the great blacks from this projector. I still want a very bright image, but blacks really need to be 'black', not 'dark gray'.
Thanks for the input.
Sean

High Gain screens will give you more perceived contrast

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post #692 of 3787 Old 07-13-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

High Gain screens will give you more perceived contrast

In mostly dark scenes, doesn't the image look as if the RS1 is running in higher gamma? This is the one thing I'm concerned about.

Had to edit to make it clearer.
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post #693 of 3787 Old 07-13-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

I'd hate to buy the High Power and lose the great blacks from this projector. I still want a very bright image, but blacks really need to be 'black', not 'dark gray'.
Thanks for the input.
Sean

If thats the case then get a CRT projector.

I'm soon switching from CRT to digital and will probably go with an RS1\\HP combo (78" x 139" - I wanted a bit bigger, but the custom sizes are way more expensive...). Anyways, I know black level won't be close, but I'll be gaining in other areas.

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post #694 of 3787 Old 07-14-2007, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semisentient View Post

If thats the case then get a CRT projector.

I'm soon switching from CRT to digital and will probably go with an RS1\\HP combo (78" x 139" - I wanted a bit bigger, but the custom sizes are way more expensive...). Anyways, I know black level won't be close, but I'll be gaining in other areas.

That depends. A CRT without gamma mods when properly calibrated for good shadow detail will give you around 10,000:1 on/off contrast. You won't achieve total fade to black of course. Setting up the same CRT for higher contrast and total black out will mean crushed blacks and a loss of shadow detail.

So if your preference is good shadow detail, you will be getting more on/off form the JVC than your CRT.

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post #695 of 3787 Old 07-14-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

That depends. A CRT without gamma mods when properly calibrated for good shadow detail will give you around 10,000:1 on/off contrast. You won't achieve total fade to black of course. Setting up the same CRT for higher contrast and total black out will mean crushed blacks and a loss of shadow detail.

So if your preference is good shadow detail, you will be getting more on/off form the JVC than your CRT.

Gary


Except for the fact that I have a custom made (by AVSForum member, and CRT engineer tse) gamma correction circuit...

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post #696 of 3787 Old 07-14-2007, 02:14 PM
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In which case you can have your cake and eat it!

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #697 of 3787 Old 07-14-2007, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

In which case you can have your cake and eat it!

Gary

And it's the darkest chocolate you have ever seen...

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post #698 of 3787 Old 07-14-2007, 07:13 PM
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My wife and I would ideally like to sit about 8 feet, or less, from a 119" screen. We enjoy the immersive effect of being close to the screen, and it is a rare occasion when more than the two of us are viewing.

If the projector is located 12 feet from the screen (and dead center to it, 50 inches off the floor) and our heads are each four feet in front of the projector, and 1.5 feet to the right and left (the pj's light path to the bottom edge of the screen would still be above our heads) of the projector's perpendicular ray to the center of the screen, will we notice any ill effects (brightness uniformity, sparklies, etc.) as a result of sitting so close to the HP screen?

The following drawing is our proposed layout in two views. Each square represents one square foot. The two numbers are the number of degrees in the angles. From Tryg's chart on his first post, it seems to me that eight degrees and under is the sweet spot for maximizing gain. At 14 degrees the gain is around 1.5.


It seems that the upper edge of the screen will appear adequately illuminated to us, so the only question I have is: are the furthest side edges from either of the two viewers going to look much dimmer than the rest of the screen?
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post #699 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 02:52 AM
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Screen uniformity will be the same, no matter where you sit. Overall brightness will decrease as you move your eyes further from the lens, but the whole screen will be uniformly lit. No hotspotting!! That's one of the HP's major features.

Joe Clark

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post #700 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 08:58 AM
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Herve- Nice drawings. They indicate that for each viewing position the lower edge of your screen will have higher gain than the upper edge, and that the closer side of the screen will have higher gain than that of the more distant side. Your question is will the resultant uniformity differences be apparent. I think the answer is probably not--at least for normal program material.

I have a HP screen and a viewing arrangement similar to yours. The differences are: a 100-inch 16x9 screen, two viewing positions 12 feet from screen, and PJ lens centered 17 feet from screen and 39 inches above the floor. I can see no apparent brightness uniformity issues on normal program material from either viewing position.

This does not mean the brightness differences are not present, it may just mean that the human eye is good at compensating for them when viewing a continuous image. The human eye is far less forgiving of a color nonuniformity, such as a change from a reddish tint on one side of the screen to a greenish tint on the other, but the HP screen does not cause any color nonuniformity as far as I can see.

I have not put up a 100% white image to see if I can see any brightness nonuniformity in that. Perhaps others can provide that info. If not, I may experiment with that when I have time.

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post #701 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 10:13 AM
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According to measurements others have made, the HP is one of the most uniform screens around, for both brightness and color.

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post #702 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 11:18 AM
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I notice no difference in uniformity even sitting at the edges of the screen.

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post #703 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 12:23 PM
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That's encouraging to hear, folks!

We've lived with a CRT fp for about 4 years, so we'd like to be able to sit as close as possible to a 1080 image from a future RS-1, while at the same time have a bright, punchy image that we will at least PERCEIVE to be uniform across the entire screen. Considering the tight "directionality" of this screen, reflected ambient light - particularly from the ceiling close to the screen - should be pretty much a non-issue.

This morning I actually measured the distance between our outside eyes as we sit in our typical viewing positions on the sofa. They are about 24" apart, not 36", so we're a bit better off than I had estimated in the drawing.

For HDTV nature and travel shows in particular, this proposed HT configuration should provide us with one very inexpensive "vacation" after the other. (WIHOUT EVER STEPPING FOOT IN AN AIRPORT!)

To anyone interested (particularly RS-1 owners),
Just for the heck of it, the next time you fire up your pj, would you be kind enough to briefly view your image from within one screen diagonal, and even closer, (and slightly to one side or the other of the center of the screen) and post at what viewing distance you begin to notice brightness uniformity, color uniformity, or "sparklie" issues, if any? Thanks.
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post #704 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

That's encouraging to hear, folks!

We've lived with a CRT fp for about 4 years, so we'd like to be able to sit as close as possible to a 1080 image from a future RS-1, while at the same time have a bright, punchy image that we will at least PERCEIVE to be uniform across the entire screen. Considering the tight "directionality" of this screen, reflected ambient light - particularly from the ceiling close to the screen - should be pretty much a non-issue.

This morning I actually measured the distance between our outside eyes as we sit in our typical viewing positions on the sofa. They are about 24" apart, not 36", so we're a bit better off than I had estimated in the drawing.

For HDTV nature and travel shows in particular, this proposed HT configuration should provide us with one very inexpensive "vacation" after the other. (WIHOUT EVER STEPPING FOOT IN AN AIRPORT!)

To anyone interested (particularly RS-1 owners),
Just for the heck of it, the next time you fire up your pj, would you be kind enough to briefly view your image from within one screen diagonal, and even closer, (and slightly to one side or the other of the center of the screen) and post at what viewing distance you begin to notice brightness uniformity, color uniformity, or "sparklie" issues, if any? Thanks.

I would be shocked if anyone reported brightness or color uniformity issues. Sparklies are certainly not an issue. I had a Firehawk before this screen, and it definitely had a sheen, as well as some fairly serious color and brightness uniformity issues. (It was the 1st gen Firehawk material, so I don't know how the next gen Firehawk fabrics perform.) No such problems with the HP. This screen provides an exceptional viewing experience, and, when you're in the "cone," a very bright image, without compromising resolution on a 1080p projector.

Joe Clark

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post #705 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

To anyone interested (particularly RS-1 owners),
Just for the heck of it, the next time you fire up your pj, would you be kind enough to briefly view your image from within one screen diagonal, and even closer, (and slightly to one side or the other of the center of the screen) and post at what viewing distance you begin to notice brightness uniformity, color uniformity, or "sparklie" issues, if any? Thanks.

Have an RS1 and 126" diag HP, sitting ~ 12.5 ft away (~ 1.36 screen widths, 1.2 x diagonal), and with pj on a stand between my and wife's recliners, very similar to your room; except that the lens of the pj is less than a ft behind our eyes, and ~ 1ft above them, i.e., even closer to our eyes than in your sketch, and very close to the dead center of the screen. It is within a half ft of being at the closest possible distance to the screen.

The picture is just unbelievably outstanding, in brightness, color, sharpness, and uniformity from any position inside the edges of the screen. Since our room is relatively small (17.5 ft deep, 13.5 ft wide, 8.3 ft H), no one can sit much outside the screen, so the HP performs optimally.
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post #706 of 3787 Old 07-15-2007, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Have an RS1 and 126" diag HP, sitting ~ 12.5 ft away (~ 1.36 screen widths, 1.2 x diagonal), and with pj on a stand between my and wife's recliners, very similar to your room; except that the lens of the pj is less than a ft behind our eyes, and ~ 1ft above them, i.e., even closer to our eyes than in your sketch, and very close to the dead center of the screen. It is within a half ft of being at the closest possible distance to the screen.

The picture is just unbelievably outstanding, in brightness, color, sharpness, and uniformity from any position inside the edges of the screen. Since our room is relatively small (17.5 ft deep, 13.5 ft wide, 8.3 ft H), no one can sit much outside the screen, so the HP performs optimally.

Very good to hear this. Your settings are very very close to what I'll be setting up (when I can talk the wife into the purchase that is )
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post #707 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 07:36 AM
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Millerwill- You have described what I believe to be the ideal optical arrangement for a HP screen/PJ installation. The goal is quite simply to keep the viewers' eyes as close as possible to the PJ lens. I slightly compromised my own installation optically by placing the PJ at eye level about five feet behind the primary viewing positions. I did this to reduce the possibility of audible fan noise at the listening positions. Even so, I would agree with you that I perceive my picture to be unbelievably outstanding, in brightness, color, sharpness, and uniformity from my viewing positions when viewing normal program material.

However, (and Joseph Clark, you should be prepared to be shocked) a test image with an all white screen from the Avia DVD last night revealed more brightness nonuniformity than I was expecting. With the test image, from my primary viewing positions, which are 12 degrees to the right and left of the PJ-to-center-screen axis, I could not see any top-to-bottom screen brightness uniformity issues. Side-to-side screen brightness nonuniformity was not large, but was readily visible from my primary viewing positions. In each viewing position the brighter side of the screen was the one corresponding to the side of the viewing position. When I moved to a position in line with one side of the screen, the nonuniformity was what I would consider large (>2 to 1?) in favor of the side I was on. I next put my head just under and centered in front the PJ lens. From that position I could not detect any visible screen brightness nonuniformity top-to-bottom or side-to-side.

To any HP owners who are skeptical of my results, I invite you to run your own white screen experiments. It's easy enough to do, and you may be surprised at the amount of brightness nonuniformity you have but are not perceiving. Hey, it's still a great screen, and I wouldn't trade mine for any other screen I know of.

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post #708 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 07:59 AM
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FLBoy: You observations are very consistent with mine. Yes, I did try to set up the HP as ideally as possible--after reading AVSForum for a couple of years in planning it all out! (And fortunately, this setup worked well for my room, and also fortunately, the RS1's noise level in minimal.) When I view from the edge of the screen, I can indeed tell that the pic is not quite as bright--though still plenty bright once your eyes adjust--but the brightness over the screenis quite uniform to the eye. (I did calculations of the angle between the lens-to screen-to eye for various points on the screen, and the angle varies very little for any point on the screen.)

The HP really is a marvelous product. Thanks to Tryg for 'shouting this from the rooftops' so that we all listened!
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post #709 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post


The HP really is a marvelous product. Thanks to Tryg for 'shouting this from the rooftops' so that we all listened!

Ditto that!

Thanks Tryg!!!

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post #710 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 09:25 AM
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I measured my Sony Pearl and High Power. My set up is not ideal as I sit forward of the projector.
I measured about a 10% +/- variation from the projector. Projector and screen I measure a +/- 20% variation. This variation was pretty consistent anywhere I could sit in the room.

Screen is cinemascope format.
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post #711 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 11:06 AM
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millerwill,

I'm not sure if you and FLBoy are seeing the same think. I think what he's saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is not just that the screen is dimmer from the side (something I think we all can agree on), but that while seated at the side, that side of the screen is up to twice as bright as the other side of the screen. That's very different. I've done informal full white screen "tests," too, and I don't perceive anything close to that. With the naked eye, I can't tell any difference.

Color me skeptical of that perception, but I haven't done objective measurements, either, so I have no hard data to back up what I see. Guess we'll have to let someone who has done the measurements chime in here. I remember reading such a post, but I can't recall which thread it was in. IIRC, the metered side to side difference was about 3%, certainly not anywhere close to 100%.

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post #712 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 11:26 AM
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Joe, Perhaps I did missread Flyboy's post. In any event, I see quite a uniform pic (to my eye, no precise measurements) from any reasonable location. One can see why this should be the case by considerting the angle from lens to screen to eye; e.g., if one is sitting opposite the right or left edge of the screen, this angle is the SAME if the point on the screen is opposite the lens (i.e., at the center of the screen) or at the edge of the screen opposite your eye (make a simple sketch to see this); so you get the same (somewhat reduced from a head-on viewing position) brightness from the HP from both points of the screen. And one can continue the process to see that the angle varies very little for any point on the screen. [If the viewer sits right near the lens, then this angle is of course ~ 0 for any point on the screen.]
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post #713 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 11:44 AM
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Keep in mind that the angular error from side to side on the screen occurs when you sit forward of the lens. The closer you are to the screen the worse it gets.

Also the further back the projector is the more area is included in the bright cone, so the people with variations that are large like me are suffering from both issues: a projector too close and seating forward of the projector by say 1/3 proj to screen distance or worse. It is still visible mostly only on white fields and I am not sorry I went to a High Power. I've seen angular screens with setups similar to mine that vary by over 3 to 1 in brightness across the screen and that is visible in movies as well as tests.
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post #714 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 12:55 PM
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Guys, Let me try to clear up a few points for you. When I saw a 2:1 (estimated) change in brightness from one side of the screen to the other (as Joe correctly noted), I was about 5 feet from the screen and standing at the edge. Jhe is also correct in stating that the angular error from side to side gets worse the closer you get to the screen, so I would not have seen as large a brightness difference at my normal viewing distance of 12 feet. Even so, at 12 feet and in my normal seated position 12 degrees off the lens-screen center axis, I could still see some side-to-side on-screen brightness variation with the all-white test image.

Joe, the human eye does a great job of hiding gradual brightness variations in a continuous image, so you might try blocking your view of the center of the screen with your hands if you try this test again; it will make the side-to-side difference much easier to see.

From a practical viewpoint, I don't think this brightness nonuniformity is much of an issue. It is nowhere near as bad as, for example, the RPTV I had before I graduated to this front PJ system. Still, I believe it is not quite correct to say that the HP screen is completely without any observable on-screen brightness variation.

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post #715 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 03:00 PM
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Fantastic!

When the time comes, a High Power it will be.
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post #716 of 3787 Old 07-16-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLBoy View Post

Guys, Let me try to clear up a few points for you. When I saw a 2:1 (estimated) change in brightness from one side of the screen to the other (as Joe correctly noted), I was about 5 feet from the screen and standing at the edge. Jhe is also correct in stating that the angular error from side to side gets worse the closer you get to the screen, so I would not have seen as large a brightness difference at my normal viewing distance of 12 feet. Even so, at 12 feet and in my normal seated position 12 degrees off the lens-screen center axis, I could still see some side-to-side on-screen brightness variation with the all-white test image.

Joe, the human eye does a great job of hiding gradual brightness variations in a continuous image, so you might try blocking your view of the center of the screen with your hands if you try this test again; it will make the side-to-side difference much easier to see.

From a practical viewpoint, I don't think this brightness nonuniformity is much of an issue. It is nowhere near as bad as, for example, the RPTV I had before I graduated to this front PJ system. Still, I believe it is not quite correct to say that the HP screen is completely without any observable on-screen brightness variation.

I know the human eye does a wonderful job of compensating for a lot of color/brightness non-uniformities. I'll take a closer look and see if I can pick up on what you're saying.

Joe Clark

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post #717 of 3787 Old 07-19-2007, 06:01 AM
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Got my 159" 16:9 HP in last night and all I can say is WOW using an RS1. I watched the Island and a couple others and I'm absolutely floored watching from 15'. More later.

Kevin W.
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post #718 of 3787 Old 07-19-2007, 10:26 AM
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You are at a slightly closer viewing distance ratio than I (~1.3--I'm at ~ 1.35, 126" screen viewed from 12.5 ft), and I agree that it is indeed 'WOW'. I've had my RS1/HP now for almost 5 months, and the WOW has worn off yet.
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post #719 of 3787 Old 07-20-2007, 03:20 PM
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I currently have an RS1 (with low lamp hours) with an 18'7" throw distance to a 92" wide ST 130. I upgrading to 108" to 110" wide 2.37:1 soon and have tested the HP samples in front of the ST 130 screen. I zoomed in to enlarge the the image to simulate the future 110" wide image. Rs1 in low lamp mode. Using a Samsung BPP-1200 BlueRay player. Table mounted Rs1. An external scaler is not being used. The RS1 is at factory default settings. Room is light controlled and watching movies with lights off. Test dvd was blueray Casino Royale. The two HP samples were vibrant and filled with life. While the ST130 (and many other samples were dim and lifeless. The image on the HP samples were very sharp with no sheen. Contrast takes a bit of a hit, but not too bad.
The ONLY concern I am having , which has prevented me from ordering the HP so far is that I see an excessive amount of video noise/film grain on bright scenes ie. a blue sky...(while the ST130 shows no trace of video noise). The construction scene on CR is one example of excessive grain. Lowering brightness on the RS1 does not reduce film grain/noise. Is my image too bright where an ND2 filter would help reduce this video noise? Most on the board see all the good points I'm seeing with the HP, but I can't understand why few are complaining about the video noise? When the entire screen is a HP does this noise become less of an issue? The HP's noise seems to be quite a bit worse than my old Sharp 9000 1 chip DLP dithering issues. Any thoughts on this?
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post #720 of 3787 Old 07-20-2007, 04:49 PM
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I have an RS-1, along with a 100" HiPower and a Toshiba HD-A2. On good HD-DVDs, I don't see any trace of "video noise". To the extent that you do see some, I don't think the HP fabric ic culpable. If the signal train has noise, though, the RS-1 / HP combo will certainly show it.

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