HIGH POWER a Review! Part 1 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 3787 Old 07-20-2007, 05:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 99
I agree. I don't think your noise problem is the HP's fault.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 3787 Old 07-20-2007, 05:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
G-Rex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 19
You both could be right, however I have 8 different screen samples including the Silver Star, and only the HP shows the noise. I am going from the BlueRay player to a Radiient switcher (passing 1080p 24), which has a signal extender/enhancer built in to a 50 foot better cable Silver Serpent HDMI cable. The RS1's power is connected to a reference grade PurePower battery backup/power regenerator that creates a perfect sign wave, so it's not a dirty power issue. So if its not the HP then where else could this video noise be comming from? I will try the RS1 with my XA2 player to make sure it's not the Samsung player. I doubt the player is the problem though. I could also try eliminating the switcher from the signal path to see if that is the culprit. I thought in prior threads I read about some people complaining about such video noise, but I could be wrong.
G-Rex is offline  
post #723 of 3787 Old 07-21-2007, 08:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
FLBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I have a 100-inch 16x9 HP screen and have never seen any noise on either HD DVD or Blu-ray sources. I did see some noise recently on a poorly recorded SD DVD.

One thing you might try is temporarily eliminating the 50-foot HDMI cable by moving one of your players close to the PJ and coupling directly with a short HDMI cable to see if that eliminates the noise. From what I read, 50 feet may be a bit of a push for HDMI. I have also read that the line-powered HDMI extenders may be inferior to those with their own external power supply. YMMV.
FLBoy is offline  
post #724 of 3787 Old 07-21-2007, 08:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
G-Rex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 19
FLBoy, I may try that. The Radiient switcher with the built-in extender does have its own power supply though.
G-Rex is offline  
post #725 of 3787 Old 07-21-2007, 09:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mikemav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Leesburg, VA ,USA
Posts: 1,121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I've had a DaLite Highpower Model B for a few months now; got it when I re-purposed my old NEC HT1100 projector to a spare bedroom to make it a game room. Anyway, I wanted to get some extra punch out of my aging projector and lamp and thus went w/ the HP screen. However, in my room setup, a tabletop mount would not have worked, so the projector is mounted in the 8'6" ceiling. Got the screen w/ the 18" black drop, mounted it to the wall and have it pulled down so it comes just to rest above the bottom of a window sill and the image is about 8" above the sill (Yes, the window behind the screen is light blocked w/ shades prior to screen install.) Anyway, I'm pleased w/ the lack of hot-spotting but there is a noticeable drop off the lower you sit. Standing (or up on the ladder to tweak the projector) it looks awesome. Sitting low to the ground in my Xbox 360 racing seat (Forza 2 rocks, BTW!), it has much less pop. I understand the screen diffusion pattern is ideally made for a non-ceiling projector mount, so I get why this is happening. Since I can't (or won't) move the projector now, here is my thought: what if I take the pull-down case off the wall, invert it and rest it at what is now the bottom of the image, which is perfect since it will be supported by the window sill. Then I can put a hook center in the wall above the window, and pull the screen UP so it is lined up with the current image and hold the pull handle up there with the wall hook. With the projector in the ceiling and the screen inverted to make it a pull-up screen, will that give me the same ideal configuration as if my projector were mounted on a low table? Easy enough to try- but I wanted to check to see if anyone has tried this or if you think it would work first.
mikemav is offline  
post #726 of 3787 Old 07-21-2007, 10:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
erkq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemav View Post

I've had a DaLite Highpower Model B for a few months now; got it when I re-purposed my old NEC HT1100 projector to a spare bedroom to make it a game room. Anyway, I wanted to get some extra punch out of my aging projector and lamp and thus went w/ the HP screen. However, in my room setup, a tabletop mount would not have worked, so the projector is mounted in the 8'6" ceiling. Got the screen w/ the 18" black drop, mounted it to the wall and have it pulled down so it comes just to rest above the bottom of a window sill and the image is about 8" above the sill (Yes, the window behind the screen is light blocked w/ shades prior to screen install.) Anyway, I'm pleased w/ the lack of hot-spotting but there is a noticeable drop off the lower you sit. Standing (or up on the ladder to tweak the projector) it looks awesome. Sitting low to the ground in my Xbox 360 racing seat (Forza 2 rocks, BTW!), it has much less pop. I understand the screen diffusion pattern is ideally made for a non-ceiling projector mount, so I get why this is happening. Since I can't (or won't) move the projector now, here is my thought: what if I take the pull-down case off the wall, invert it and rest it at what is now the bottom of the image, which is perfect since it will be supported by the window sill. Then I can put a hook center in the wall above the window, and pull the screen UP so it is lined up with the current image and hold the pull handle up there with the wall hook. With the projector in the ceiling and the screen inverted to make it a pull-up screen, will that give me the same ideal configuration as if my projector were mounted on a low table? Easy enough to try- but I wanted to check to see if anyone has tried this or if you think it would work first.

This won't work because it's a retro-reflective screen whether it's upside down or right side up. It's got glass beads that reflect the light back to the source. That's how it gets its gain. The angle between the projector any your eyes should be as small as possible
erkq is offline  
post #727 of 3787 Old 07-21-2007, 02:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
FLBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I agree with erkq. The HP screen has no optical top or bottom. You can even turn it sideways, and it will still work the same. One thing you could do to improve the gain would be to lower the PJ using an extender rod--if your PJ has the lens offset range to handle a lower position. The goal is to get your eyeballs as close to the PJ lens as possible. The HP screen tries to send most of the light right back where it came from.
FLBoy is offline  
post #728 of 3787 Old 07-23-2007, 08:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
Chadci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beech Grove, IN
Posts: 928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a 119" HP pulldown. I have only had it for a few months but now when I go to pull it down, there seems to be a little resistance at first. Once I get past this is is smooth. I have to keep it up when not in use or it would become a giant coloring book. Any idea's why this is.... the resistance that is. Basically, it wants to hold in place so I have to give it an extra tug.
Chadci is online now  
post #729 of 3787 Old 07-23-2007, 08:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
Chadci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beech Grove, IN
Posts: 928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry double post. Feel free to delete.
Chadci is online now  
post #730 of 3787 Old 07-23-2007, 08:38 AM
Member
 
schm66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone have any good advice on how to put together a Da-lite Cinema Contour High power screen together?

I got all but 5 snaps on in the last corner. Can not seem to pull it enough to get the last of the snaps on. It is a 119" screen. Thanks for any help.
schm66 is offline  
post #731 of 3787 Old 07-23-2007, 01:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
FLBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by schm66 View Post

Does anyone have any good advice on how to put together a Da-lite Cinema Contour High power screen together?

I got all but 5 snaps on in the last corner. Can not seem to pull it enough to get the last of the snaps on. It is a 119" screen. Thanks for any help.

I actually used vise grip pliers on mine to pull the screen material over to align the snaps. I also had a helper, and we stood the screen up against the wall to avoid having to work on the floor. Others have suggested using a hair dryer to heat the screen material to make it more pliable. As they say, it ain't easy! Just be careful that you don't damage the viewing area of the screen. Good luck!
FLBoy is offline  
post #732 of 3787 Old 07-24-2007, 10:32 AM
Member
 
schm66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the help FLBoy. I phoned DA-Lite and they told me to snap the corners first. So I unsnapped all but the corners and pulled and got the last corner to snap. Then I snapped the middles. That worked great.
schm66 is offline  
post #733 of 3787 Old 07-26-2007, 12:24 PM
dsm
Member
 
dsm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a question for you Hi-Power experts. A few years back I bought a 4:3 Hi-Power pull down for use with an InFocus X1. I subsequently switched to a 16:9 InFocus, and was able to jury rig a masking solution in my room. I'm now going to be giving the projector and screen to my brother, and unforunately WAF will not allow the use of usual masking options. My question - can the Hi-Power be painted black on the the top of the screen to convert it to a 16:9 aspect? If so, will any paint suffice? Would flat black spray paint do the job? (I don't have a sprayer ... ) Any ideas would be appreciated.
dsm is offline  
post #734 of 3787 Old 07-27-2007, 09:57 AM
Member
 
romberth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello Tryg.

I own a 2.95 meters wide HP that is about 10 feet... and I need bigger.

In the first post you wrote

# If fixed frame screens are your thing, the High Power material comes seamless up to 6 feet. So if you're thinking about going big, you may be interested in a 6 foot tall 14 foot wide Cinemascope screen. Simply awesome.#

I dont find these sizes on the Dalite site. Please would you indicate where i can find a bigger High power 16 9 fixed frame screen than mine?
And if someone knows a Dalite salesman that can ship to Europe that would be fantastic.

Thx a lot
Best regards
romberth is offline  
post #735 of 3787 Old 08-01-2007, 04:59 PM
Senior Member
 
SeanCJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello All,
I've told that a pull down or electric High Power screen would not show 'waves' or wrinkles due to the nature of the fabric. Is this true? If so, does that mean that paying the $1K extra for tensioning would not be necessary?
I would really like to get the high power electric, but the 'tensioning' cost puts it a bit out of my price range.
SeanCJ is offline  
post #736 of 3787 Old 08-01-2007, 08:10 PM
hrd
AVS Special Member
 
hrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

Hello All,
I've told that a pull down or electric High Power screen would not show 'waves' or wrinkles due to the nature of the fabric. Is this true? If so, does that mean that paying the $1K extra for tensioning would not be necessary?
I would really like to get the high power electric, but the 'tensioning' cost puts it a bit out of my price range.

I viewed a large High Power that had waves in it. The waves were visible with the lights on and the projector off, but did not show on the screen when we watched movies and broadcast TV. Some here have said if you watch from an angle and there is ambient light reflecting on the waves, then they could show.

The High Power is a heavy fabric, and that alone helps with wave issues. Still, a fixed frame screen will be the best at giving the flattest surface and eliminating waves. This is what Da-Lite told me when I was on the phone with a customer service rep.

Forget about the tensioned screens. If you look at all the different tensioned screens Da-Lite offers, you will notice the High Power is not available in any shape or form as a tensioned screen.
hrd is offline  
post #737 of 3787 Old 08-01-2007, 08:58 PM
hrd
AVS Special Member
 
hrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by romberth View Post

Please would you indicate where i can find a bigger High power 16 9 fixed frame screen than mine?
And if someone knows a Dalite salesman that can ship to Europe that would be fantastic.

Thx a lot
Best regards

You can contact Da-Lite at:

http://www.da-lite.com/

This page lists the large 16X9 fixed frame screens in the Cinema Contour line:

http://www.da-lite.com/products/product_pdfs/234.pdf

It lists the 133-inch diagonal as the largest High Power size available, but that is not accurate.

Tryg was talking about a seamless High Power screen. If you want your screen to be seamless, the largest size you could get would be, as Tryg said, 6 feet high, which is 128 inches wide (3.25 meters) and about 147 inches diagonal. With an electric or pull-down screen, you could watch all of that 147 inches, but the fixed frame screens involve a snap-on process that results in some of the screen material being obscured by the frame, such that you would get less than 147 inches of viewable space. It looks like you have the 133-inch High Power. If so, you could get an extra 12 inches in width by switching to an electric or pull-down screen and getting the custom sized 147-inch, but not as much of an increase if you get a fixed frame screen.

If you don't mind a seam, you can go much larger than that.
hrd is offline  
post #738 of 3787 Old 08-01-2007, 09:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RobZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Will this setup produce decent results? I just ordered a 119" HP Electrol.

My Pearl will be mounted 14' throw on a 10' ceiling with a 3' extension pole (Chief mount). this will place the projector's lens approxiamtely 6 1/2' above the floor. My viewing distance will be directly in front of the screen only and at a 12' viewing distance.
RobZ is offline  
post #739 of 3787 Old 08-02-2007, 07:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
FLBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 1,688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Will this setup produce decent results? I just ordered a 119" HP Electrol.

You can best answer this question for yourself. Stretch a string from you PJ's lens to a point on your screen wall. Stretch a second string from that point to your viewing position at seated eye level. Measure the angle between the two strings. Look up the screen gain at that angle on the graph in the first post of this thread. That is the screen gain you will have at that point on your HP screen. Repeat for other viewing positions and/or other points on the screen.
FLBoy is offline  
post #740 of 3787 Old 08-02-2007, 07:18 AM
Member
 
Orwellflash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCJ View Post

Hello All,
I've told that a pull down or electric High Power screen would not show 'waves' or wrinkles due to the nature of the fabric. Is this true? If so, does that mean that paying the $1K extra for tensioning would not be necessary?
I would really like to get the high power electric, but the 'tensioning' cost puts it a bit out of my price range.

I will second what hrd has written. I have seen 3 HP Model C pulldowns. 2 of the 3 had significant waves from the beginning. I have heard from others that many pulldown screens develop waves over time, as well. You can see the waves while a picture is projected on the screen if there is side light hitting the screen. I have a light controlled room, with very little reflected light, and I cannot see the waves when a picture is being projected.

That's a picture of Leadbelly's grave in Shiloh Baptist Church Cemetery Mooringsport Caddo Parish Louisiana (with Arlo Gutherie's guitar picks placed in memoriam). Arlo put them on his grave in 2005 and they were still there in 2012.
Orwellflash is offline  
post #741 of 3787 Old 08-02-2007, 07:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RobZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,546
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLBoy View Post

You can best answer this question for yourself. Stretch a string from you PJ's lens to a point on your screen wall. Stretch a second string from that point to your viewing position at seated eye level. Measure the angle between the two strings. Look up the screen gain at that angle on the graph in the first post of this thread. That is the screen gain you will have at that point on your HP screen. Repeat for other viewing positions and/or other points on the screen.


Sounds easy enough. Thanks for the tip.
RobZ is offline  
post #742 of 3787 Old 08-03-2007, 10:59 AM
Member
 
steinfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 72
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by schm66 View Post

Thanks for the help FLBoy. I phoned DA-Lite and they told me to snap the corners first. So I unsnapped all but the corners and pulled and got the last corner to snap. Then I snapped the middles. That worked great.


thanks for the tip!

I finally took the plunge. ordered 110" cinema contour with pro-trim! Hope I like it! I know it will make me want a new projector with dark blacks even more now. oh well, one thing at a time.
steinfoot is offline  
post #743 of 3787 Old 08-03-2007, 02:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 99
You're gonna love it. That's what I have and it has never disappointed.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #744 of 3787 Old 08-04-2007, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ctviggen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Forget about the tensioned screens. If you look at all the different tensioned screens Da-Lite offers, you will notice the High Power is not available in any shape or form as a tensioned screen.

Elite now has a screen with a gain of 1.5 in a tensioned system. I'm not sure whether gains of 1.5 qualify as "high power" though.

Bob
ctviggen is offline  
post #745 of 3787 Old 08-05-2007, 09:45 PM
Pip
Senior Member
 
Pip's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I own a pull down High Power. When I ordered it many years ago, I needed extra drop (masking) on the top and bottom. The dealer, in order to save me money, had them add the drop with different (cheaper) material than the high power fabric, so my screen has horizontal seams above and below the viewing area. This causes very large wrinkles which are very obvious when looking at just the screen (no image) with full room light.

However, even with my exceptionally wrinlked specimen, I never see wrinkles when viewing a movie except for one condition - long horizontal pans of static images. I sit out of the viewing cone often.

When my screen arrived in such a disconcerting state, I spent a lot of time trying to see wrinkles. As I could not, I can't imaginge any normally manufactured high power showing visible wrinkles with an image. I've seen several tab-tensioned screens that have more visible wrinkles than mine.

Pip
Pip is offline  
post #746 of 3787 Old 08-06-2007, 05:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
Nedtsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscmore View Post

Hi Ned -

The gain of the fabric couldn't be increased without paying other costs to the image. To have a gain equal to the HP, such a fabric would have to have even higher gain on the threads due to the loss through the holes. Cranking up the gain that high would decrease viewing angle, increase color shifting, reduce color and brightness uniformity, and lay fertile ground for sparkles since it's series of threads and not a sheet of vinyl.

The HP was designed for business use and isn't really appropriate for home theaters in my opinion. There are many great screen fabrics out there that I would happily cheer for, but I have to say I don't understand the HP's popularity for HT use.

I have some groundwork for other screen materials, but chasing after >2.5 gain screens isn't on the list.

Cheers,
Chris


Would you guys agree with Chris assessment on HP ?
Nedtsc is offline  
post #747 of 3787 Old 08-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Tutmos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
No, I wouldn't. I've been using a 159" diag HP for almost a month now and I couldn't be happier. Keep in mind that's after 7 years with a 1.0ish screen. There's very little downside to a HP screen that I can find. You'd think the tight viewing cone is the problem but even that is pretty minimal.
Tutmos is offline  
post #748 of 3787 Old 08-06-2007, 07:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 99
I wouldn't agree, either. I had a Stewart Firehawk (which is definitely a "home theater" screen, not business) before the HP and there is no comparison. I much prefer the HP image to the FH in just about every way.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #749 of 3787 Old 08-06-2007, 08:34 PM
Member
 
Orwellflash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedtsc View Post

Would you guys agree with Chris assessment on HP ?

I haven't seen any reports of problems with sparklies. Here is some objective data from Glen C on the HP versus Studio Tek, Firehawk, and Carada BW. I can't find original post, but this is what I saved from it:

"You also mentioned your tight budget. In a fixed frame, the Carada BW is one of the few screens that comes close to fitting in your budget. It is rated at 1.4 gain. I have measured this screen with my spectroradiometer. With a ceiling mounted PJ, I measure it at 1.1 gain. It has exceptional color accuracy, and brightness and color uniformity. It's velvet lined frame is equal in size and beauty to my Stewart screen. It is simple to install. One caveat: its high uniformity is a disadvantage in a room with white ceiling and walls. (In this case, I would recommend the Stewart Firehawk, which is triple the price.)

Another screen that is near your budget is the Da-Lite High Power, rated at 2.8 gain with a shelf mounted PJ. When coupled with a ceiling mounted PJ (mounted 16% the screen's height above the screen surface) I measure it at 1.17 gain, but this is going to vary depending on how high/low you mount it. It is available in fixed screen or pull-down. It is acceptably color accurate. It is almost perfect in terms of color and brightness uniformity. It has a wide viewing cone. The folks that have posted contradictory statements regarding its uniformity in the configuration that I have listed, are just flat out ignorant about this screen. I challenge them to back up their statements with facts by listing the measurements they have taken of this screen with a ceiling mounted PJ. (Don't forget to measure the PJ's uniformity first, so that you can subtract it from your screen measurements.)

Some folks have reported an occasional sparkly on the HP. I don't know. Typically a sparkly will disappear from view if you shift your seating (or your head) to the side by an inch or less. The Firehawk is known to have this problem occasionally, and I have seen iton my own screen. I have read recommendations to color them over with a soft lead pencil on the Firehawk, but have never had cause to do this personally. As far as eliminating them on the HP, Da-Lite may have some recommendations. I don't know.

SCREEN_____GAIN AT________REDUCTION AT___SCREEN CENTER FROM
___________SCREEN CENTER__SCREEN EDGE___SEAT AT 45% ANGLE

ST 130______1.3___________-25%___________-40%
BW_________1.11__________-7%____________-29%
HP__________1.17__________0%____________-36%
VUTEC PW____1.84_________-33%___________-65%
FH__________1.14_________-48%___________-71%

Measured color shift in x/y imparted by the screen measured at the same positions listed above for uniformity.

SCREEN___COLOR SHIFT AT___COLOR SHIFT AT__COLOR SHIFT FROM
_________SCREEN CENTER___SCREEN EDGE_____SEAT AT 45% ANGLE

ST 130____-.0007/+.0013____+.0043/+.0049____-.0007/-.0033
BW_______-.0017/+.0003____+.0003/+.0019____-.0027/+.0003
HP_______+.0023/+.0043____+.0013/+.0049____+.0013/+.0033
VUTEC PW_+.0003/+.0003____+.0003/+.0023____+.0003/+.0013
FH________-.0027/-.0007_____-.0057/-.0041_____-.0091/-.0077

Studio Tek 130, Carada Brilliant White, Da-lite High Power, Vutec , Firehawk.

In a white room the Firehawk will stomp the Carada and any other screen like it. The Firehawks defects work to give it a higher on-screen CR, because it dampens cross-light reflections. The difference is quite visible and vastly outwiegh its dissadvantages.

In a theater with dark or non-reflective surfaces, I would use a screen with better uniformity. However, I see quite a few black-hole theaters that use the Firehawk and it still looks great. I just think that there are better choices. Not everyone agrees with me about this. I have friends who think their Firehawks are better than white screens even in their black-hole theaters. IMO, in such a theater there are minimal cross-light reflections to wash out the screen image. So you don't need a Firehawk. No screen can change the CR of an image on its own. It is only by dampening the effect of cross-light reflections that the on-screen CR can be affected. Other than that, grey screens have no affect on CR, despite what some may post. A lower gain screen lowers the level of White to the same degree as it lowers the level of Black and CR remains the same, just at a lower level of brightness.


There is a ton of BS about screens on the forum and in print. A screen is mearly a reflective surface. What it does to any image reflected from it can be measured in terms of color shift and brightness shifts. Plus the affect of the surface texture on sharpness, sparklies, and the like.

Though the Firehawk has slightly higher gain at the very center of the screen, it measures lower and lower gain as you move out from the center towards the sides. The Carada remains much more constant. The Carada would probably appear brighter over all than the Firehawk because of this. I usually figure the Firehawk at 1.0 gain when planning how bright a PJ to mate with it.

White vs Grey in itself has absolutely nothing to do with "POP" or color purity or anything like that. This is a lack of understanding as to what is really going on in the reflected image. In video, grey is the same color as white. It is just less intense (less bright). In video, White and every shade of Grey is the color described by the x/y color coordinates .3127/.3290. When an ISF calibrates a display's greyscale, he sets the display so that White and every shade of Grey down to Black is as close to .3127/.3290 as possible. If a screen is color accurate, meaning that it does not impart a color of its own to the images it reflects then it doen't matter what that screen looks like when the PJ is shut down and the room lights are on. The screen can look white, grey, and even a little salmon color and still be shown to impart no significant color shift. You can't judge a screen with the room lights on.

Where this POP thing comes from is that people have compared higher gain white screens like an ST130 to lower gain grey screens like the Firehawk in the same room and at the same time. In this kind of comparison the dimmer screen looks greyer. However, from reading the above, you probably realize that looking "greyer" only means "dimmer" in this context. If you bring in say a 1.8 gain white screen and put it next to the ST130, now all of the sudden, the ST130's image looks greyer and lacking in POP. Remove the 1.8 gain screen and the ST130's POP returns. Now remove the ST130 and the Firehawks vividness returns. And so on and so on and so on.

This is just the way human vision works and this is well known. For example, if you project a white square that is 10 fL against a Black background, you will see the square as being White. Now add a second square next to it that is 12 fL. The 10 fL square suddenly is perceived as being light grey.

The Carada has advantages over the Firehawk in terms of superior uniformity, both in brightness and in color. However. any differences in "perceived" color vividness can only be due to differences in brightness. Make it so that the image coming from the Firehawk is brighter, and then it will appear to be the more vivid in a side by side comparison. On their own, without direct comparison, both screens will be equally "vivid". Anyone who thinks otherwise is mearly fooling themselves.

Let me put it another way, as long as two screens do not color shift the image, the colors they reflect will be identical escept for how bright they are. Neither one will be more "vivid" than the other. In an HT we are selecting a PJ and screen to achieve a certain desired brightness level, which is commonly 12 fL at White. The size and gain of the screen will determine how bright it is. Choose a screen whose gain gets you your desired brightness level.

Yes, a grey screen will look identical to a white screen that has the same gain and uniformity charectoristics. You could not tell the difference, nor could measuring equipment. Anyone who tells me they see something that can be demonstrate is not there, is merely mistaken.


With the caveat that there will be some differences if the two screens differ in brightness uniformity. The measurements that I posted for intensity at the edge of the screen when measured from the prime seat describe how uniform the reflected image will be to the prime seat. Keep in mind that that for the human eye/brain to sense that brightness has been halved, it must actually be reduced to 18% of the original intensity. The human eye/brain senses that the change in intensity is much smaller than what the meter does. This coupled with the fact that most video images are not uniform themselves makes people surprisingly tolerant of brightness uniformity issues like those induced by the Firehawk, for example. So I say, "Yes". If you want a big screen, and that requires using a gain screen. Go for it. You can also choose to go the lower gain and smaller screen route and move the seating closer as an alternative. The measurements for intensity when measured from a seat set at a 45 degree angle from the center of the screen describe how much dimmer the image will appear to someone sitting off to the side at a 45 degree angle. If you don't have seating off to the side, then this isn't of concern. Most HTs don't. If you do, then that non-uniform screen might not work well enough for you. It all depends on how often those seats get used and how important that is to you. I actually have seats in my HT at that angle, and guests choose to use them instead of sitting in front of the screen frequently, and to my consternation, because I never would. They find the brightness level from those seats OK.

Another example. I put in a theater that also had seating off to the sides and where the intended audience would be critical viewers. I wanted to use the Carada BW because of its uniformity and because of its low cost. The screen needed to be large. I could not use the 122"D screen that I wanted. It would not be bright enough. I settled for a 110"D screen and moved the seating closer to the screen to maintain the same field of view for the prime seat. The walls were dark and non-reflective, but the ceiling was white. I can see visible image washout from the cross-light reflections off the ceiling. It still looks very good, but it will look even better if the ceiling is darkened. In this room a Firehawk would look better to a viewer in the prime seat than the Carada does, but the viewers on the sides would see a considerably dimmer image and they would probably disagree, at least I think I would."

That's a picture of Leadbelly's grave in Shiloh Baptist Church Cemetery Mooringsport Caddo Parish Louisiana (with Arlo Gutherie's guitar picks placed in memoriam). Arlo put them on his grave in 2005 and they were still there in 2012.
Orwellflash is offline  
post #750 of 3787 Old 08-06-2007, 08:58 PM
Senior Member
 
SeanCJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Is the 2.8 gain of the HP too much when viewing in total darkness? Is the image too bright in total light controlled rooms? I'll be viewing maybe 40% of the time with some ambient light, but the remaining 60% will be at night with total light control. I just don't want it to be too washed out during the night time viewing.
Also, anyone that has had a pull down HP for over several months noted any issues with waves that can be seen when PH is on and while the movie is playing?
I really want to get this screen, but the lack of 'tensioning' has me reconsidering the purchase of the Elite Cinetension 1.5 gain electric.
I appreciate PIPs responses to this and would like to hear more experiences.
Thanks
Sean
SeanCJ is offline  
Reply Screens

Tags
Projection Screens , Projectors , Da Lite Screens , Da Lite High Power Hdtv Format Ascender Electric Projector Screen , Dalite Model C Video Format 105 X 140 Inch High Power Projection Screen

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off