HIGH POWER a Review! Part 1 - Page 37 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 3787 Old 06-01-2008, 11:02 AM
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I have recently switched my screen going from a Draper Accuscreen 120 to a Dalite HP 120. All I can say is I love it. The images just pop off the screen. I am amazed at the performance of this screen. This screen is paired with my sony pearl vw50 and I could not be happier. Big thanks to Jason Turk, as he is a pleasure to deal with and shipping was fast. No hotspotting or sparkles, and gain drop off is not as bad out of the viewing cone as I thought. I am setting 14 feet from the screen.
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post #1082 of 3787 Old 06-02-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrobe008 View Post

I have recently switched my screen going from a Draper Accuscreen 120 to a Dalite HP 120. All I can say is I love it. The images just pop off the screen. I am amazed at the performance of this screen. This screen is paired with my sony pearl vw50 and I could not be happier. Big thanks to Jason Turk, as he is a pleasure to deal with and shipping was fast. No hotspotting or sparkles, and gain drop off is not as bad out of the viewing cone as I thought. I am setting 14 feet from the screen.

For your projector's mounting location, what is the distance up from the floor to the center of the VW50's lens.

Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com
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post #1083 of 3787 Old 06-02-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietmouse View Post

I've had my 133-inch High Power screen for almost a couple of years now.
Very happy with it.

Currently it's being used with the Panasonic AE2000 1080p pojector,
in a totally-dark viewing room.

However, I have re-arranged the room very differently after getting
some new couches, speakers, receivers, etc.... now I'm sitting closer
to the screen. The 133" size is a bit too big now.

I zoom down the projected image from 133" to about 106" now. It's
aligned to to the top, leavning a white column on either side, as well
as the bottm.

what's the best way to cover up the white area? ideally, I guess
I should just buy another smaller High Power screen... but don't know
what I can do with the old 133" one.... on the other hand, if I'm going
to buy a new screen, I was wondering if there's anything newer/better
than the High Power on the market right now? I'm used to the High Power,
so anything else probably need to have equal/better brightness...

any advice appreciated!


If it ain't broke don't fix it! Buy another but smaller HP screen...

I've been tempted to buy an HP screen too but so far I'm quite happy with my 92" Wilsonart DIY Designer White screen. Supposedly it mimics the Stewart ST130 screen quite closely.
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post #1084 of 3787 Old 06-02-2008, 02:59 PM
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My pearl sits at 52" from the floor
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post #1085 of 3787 Old 06-07-2008, 01:59 AM
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quietmouse, buy a smaller screen and sell the 133" one
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post #1086 of 3787 Old 06-08-2008, 06:04 PM
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Well, I managed to read the whole thread! Great job and kudos to all of you all who have stuck with it, advising us about to leap into HP.

I've moved, and my HT will change. Now I have a 23 ft wide x 33 ft long room with a truncated vault ceiling max 13 ft high and about 6 ft wide at the top. There is a fireplace at the far end of the room directly opposite the entrance door along the 33 ft axis. The room is light in color with several floor to ceiling windows and serves as a game room/family room with a pool table on the opposite end from the fireplace, so there will be some ambient light. Clearly not my old batcave but what can you do.

Could I ask your opinions on this setup: recess mount a Da-Lite 139" wide Model C electric screen into the ceiling with a scope format screen. It will drop down in front of the fireplace. Should be 58" high, with about 5 ft of black fabric for the drop, placing the bottom of the screen 3 ft off the floor.

There will be an 8ft wide couch, head position about 15 ft from the screen, with couches on either side (I know the off axis will be killed in these, but that's WAF)

The big questions are: If I mount the PJ on the back wall, does that change the angle of incidence for calculation of gain, or is it really just the distance above your eyes? Either way, if it is 7 ft up, the angle will be about 15 degrees, apparently acceptable. If I do mount it way back there, does being at the max zoom reduce lumens? Looking at the PJ Central ft-lambert calculator, it seems zoom does drop output. I guess I could mount the PJ lower and off the the side of the door frame, but that introduces another angle. The other option might be to make a credenza behind the sofa with a motorized popup to raise the PJ and be closer to the ideal angle, but that seems awfully complex and possibly noisy. Finally, are you all using anamorphic lenses or just zooming? and, if zooming, are the black bars noticable enough to benefit from masking, or are they still really black?

Re PJs, given this possible setup, are the RS-1 and Epson 1080 UH still hot tickets?

Thanks much-I'd appreciate comments.

ham
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post #1087 of 3787 Old 06-08-2008, 06:31 PM
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ham: That's an awfully big screen. You may want to do the ftL calculation [ftL = lumens*screen gain/screen area (in sq ft)] to make sure it will be bright enough for you. I think the gain of the HP falls to ~ 1.5 if the angle between lens-to screen-to eye is ~ 15 deg, but you've probably seen the relevant graph of gain vs angle in this thread. The RS1 does loose ~ 30% of its lumens, I believe, at its longest throw; thus probably ~ 420 lumens in low lamp.
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post #1088 of 3787 Old 06-08-2008, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ham View Post

The room is light in color with several floor to ceiling windows and serves as a game room/family room with a pool table on the opposite end from the fireplace, so there will be some ambient light.

If you want to benefit from the contrast levels the RS1 can do, you are probably better off looking into the Black Diamond screen rather than the High Power. I love high gain screens, and will admit the most preferred setups I have seen were an RS1 with a Silverstar and an RS2 with a High Power, however those were in bat caves. With light walls, the best thing to do is to either take advantage of the ambient-light rejecting nature of the Black Diamond or to throw as many lumens at the screen as possible.

The Epson does have a lot of lumens, but not in every mode...best way to handle that is to choose which mode you like the best, then turn the bulb setting for that mode from economy to high. AV Science stopped selling the Epson, though, due to convergence issues with so many of them.

Bob Sorel has a 139" wide HP screen in cinemascope format in a bat cave and has had to deal with lumens as a major issue. Bob has had a number of different projecters, with varying success with lumen levels. At one time, he had an RS1. You could try PMing him.
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post #1089 of 3787 Old 06-09-2008, 01:20 PM
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ham- I see several problems. First, I agree with millerwill that with such a large screen and the two PJs your proposed, you may be in Dim City unless you adjust your setup to maximize the HP gain. Second, even with your large screen I don't believe that the zoom range of the RS1 or the 1080UB will allow a throw of more than about 24-25 feet. Third, with the PJ far behind the viewers, all but the center-most viewer will experience brightness non-uniformity across the screen from side to side.

A solution to all three problems may be to place the pj 2-3 feet behind the main viewing position, just above head level. This will provide a screen gain of about 2.0 for the two main viewing positions. The 2-3 foot distance should be sufficient to alleviate any noise/heat issues. An 18-foot throw will put you near the middle of the zoom range for either PJ. Brightness uniformity with this arrangement should be adequate.

As to white walls, I too have to live with them, and I think the HP's narrow viewing cone helps a lot with secondary reflected light. The rear of your room is advantageously far enough away from the screen that it probably won't cause much of a problem. If it does, I would suggest either painting it darker or using some dark draperies.

Feel free to use my screen gain calculator (in my signature line) to experiment with different arrangements. Parameters for the HP are in the second post of that thread.
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post #1090 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 07:18 AM
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I am using a DaLite Model B HDTV Format 92 Inch Diagonal 45X80 High Power. I measured my maximum angles using a protractor and a piece of string. Taped the string to the top of the projector, handed the ball of string to my wife who held it in the middle of her forehead and took up slack, then took the middle of the string and the protractor to the corners of the screen. Can also do this with Trygonometry. Anyway, my maximum angle was about 10 degrees.

0. The chart in the original post implies that the brightness of my glass-bead retro-reflective screen would vary. But I don't see any hot spotting whatsoever. Why not?
1. How much further beyond 10 degrees can you go with retro-reflective and still have no hot spots or contours?
2. I don't understand why retro-reflective would not need tensioning; is the material particularly firm or supple to account for this? And all the angular-reflective happen to use materials that need tensioning?
3. The original post seems to pooh pooh angular-reflective. But it seems to me as long as I get ambient light rejected, I don't care if it retro-rejects it or angular-rejects it. And that in some applications where you have more than 10 degree angles (not sure where the cutoff is, see above) retro-reflective won't cut it. In fact if you're all sitting on a sofa watching it seems that if your geometry is right, angular-reflective could put you spot on in the sweet spot. Seems to me that if you have to put your projector not 2 feet above your head but 6, that angular-reflective could be the bees knees. Tryg, why would angular be inferior to retro?
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post #1091 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Tag View Post

I am using a DaLite Model B HDTV Format 92 Inch Diagonal 45X80 High Power. I measured my maximum angles using a protractor and a piece of string. Taped the string to the top of the projector, handed the ball of string to my wife who held it in the middle of her forehead and took up slack, then took the middle of the string and the protractor to the corners of the screen.

Pictures please...

Am I reading this wrong? You say "I am using a DaLite Model B". But your post insinuates you dont have one yet....

0,1 you wont see hotspotting at any angle
2 material to stiff to tension, also not necessary
3. they both do different things. retro is better for rejecting ambient light
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post #1092 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 01:41 PM
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The largest screen possible would be great as I'd also like to be able to comfortably watch sports playing pool at the back of the room. Also, it needs to be retractable.

That said, while a stronger projector seems in order, IIRC Tryg uses a G1000 for his 12 ft hi power from 28 ft back? That's a 1000 lumen PJ pre calbration.

Glad to hear the rear wall is far enough back to dampen reflections. There is no way the wife will allow that to be painted. I've spoken with the wife re a popup PJ in a credenza behind the seats--could fly but not known yet.

Re the Black Diamond, in reading the BD thread the advantages still seems to be unconfirmed although promising. Perhaps the best course is to wait--however, in either case, BD or HP, that large a screen seems to need a light cannon. Any suggestion?

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post #1093 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

Pictures please...

Am I reading this wrong? You say "I am using a DaLite Model B". But your post insinuates you dont have one yet....

0,1 you wont see hotspotting at any angle
2 material to stiff to tension, also not necessary
3. they both do different things. retro is better for rejecting ambient light

Tryg, sorry I confuse things, I have an old room I'm discussing above, and in my other post I'm setting up a new HTPC in another room. I should have taken a measurement of my BEST angle as well as my worst angle. I had to resort to trygonometry. I sit with my eyes 18 inches below the lens, and 118 inches from the screen. I just assumed I had a right triangle and calculated the hypotenuse at 119.36 inches (sqrt(18^2+118^2)), then I had excel calculate degrees(arccos(118/119.36)) and there is our answer 8.67 degrees. So what becomes obvious is, I'm saying hey Tryg, my viewing angle on my retro-reflective screen varies from 8.67 to 10 degrees... I was wrong to use the word hot spotting... What I meant was, why don't I see variations in brightness across the screen... And the answer is, even with the graph in post #1 above, one will see precious little variation if the angle of reflection varies by one or two degrees across the entire screen! So really the only question I am left with is, at what degree would you say retro-reflective starts to fall off unacceptably in terms of loss of gain? At which angles one might have to resort to tensioned+angular-reflective instead of retro-reflective?

One other idea, given that this room is 20' deep... any thoughts about rear projection and what kind of screens are used with that and how they reject ambient light?

Guys, I really recommend you determine the angles, either analytically with Excel or, its kind of fun to have your wife sit there looking dumb holding a piece of string to her forehead. Or, you can do the trig or, maybe the projector calculator websites should tell you the angles. I think this is a pretty interesting result, that the angle varies so little. Its surprising to me. In retropspect its not surprising because nobody has been complaining about brightness varying across the screen. But its nice to know why now.
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post #1094 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 07:02 PM
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Tryg,

Any current thoughts re projectors, ambient light, mounting position and these HP screens? While your real world experience, as reflected in post #41 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...83#post9254183 seems to indicate that these screens perform well in a lot of environments, do not need a light cannon to drive them, and PJ placement is somewhat flexible, would you put in a higher powered PJ such as a 1080 UB, Mits or other?

Otherwise, it is apparent that your ancient G1000 is too dim to light up your 12 ft HP, and you need to remount it lower.

Finally, reading the BD thread with the note that there may be no 1.4 available till 2009, it appears the HP is currently the best bet for a good dropdown screen. Agree?

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post #1095 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Tag View Post

Guys, I really recommend you determine the angles, either analytically with Excel or, its kind of fun to have your wife sit there looking dumb holding a piece of string to her forehead. Or, you can do the trig or, maybe the projector calculator websites should tell you the angles. I think this is a pretty interesting result, that the angle varies so little. Its surprising to me. In retropspect its not surprising because nobody has been complaining about brightness varying across the screen. But its nice to know why now.

I vote for the string to your wifes head. Tell her this is necessary
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post #1096 of 3787 Old 06-10-2008, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ham View Post

it appears the HP is currently the best bet for a good dropdown screen. Agree?

I agree it's a good choice. I use an RS1 but any projector will do
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post #1097 of 3787 Old 06-11-2008, 01:06 AM
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Tryg, everyone, I'm hearing two schools of thought on screens.

The old school advocates low gain (grey, lossy, diffusive) screens like the Da-Lite HC CinemaVision with a gain of 0.8. This then backs you into projectors with higher lumens which then backs you into DLP or the IN83 for example. I talked to a guy who installs home theater rooms for a living, he's not a salesman, but he said he's never installed a single high power screen. The old school does it the old way and has done it this way for decades, damn the rainbow effect, full speed ahead. And light rejection is done the old school way too, the grey low gain screen rejects all light equally, ambient and projector alike, but the projector wins because its got lots of lumens like a good healthy American projector should. I shouldn't make fun of it because in reality this guy has honestly done nothing but install theaters like this day in and day out for decades. We have to explain that somehow. As far as I can understand it, he didn't like the new school gain screens because it multiplies the black level, but my take is it also multiplies the white level and all that matter are the contrast RATIOS which are unaffected. That and ambient light rejection. The guy is sincere and not a salesman. Though it would be awkward for a salesman to put in a $400 screen with a $6000 projector.

The new school uses retro-reflective screens with a gain up to 2.8 or so. At least 80% of the projectors made and sold are not light cannons and thus work well with this approach. So I have to believe it is the dominant approach. I am simply standing on the shoulders of giants like Tryg, he posted years worth of experiments here on screen materials and I wholly agree with his finding that HP retro-refecttive looks fantastic, not merely for the brightness but also it seems to me it rejects more than the above 20% of ambient light. And lower lumen = less heat = less fan noise.

Problems would result from mixing and matching the projectors called for by the old school with the new school screens, and vice-versa. Anyway at this point I'm sticking with the new school and thinking RS1 or RS2 instead of IN83.
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post #1098 of 3787 Old 06-11-2008, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

I vote for the string to your wifes head. Tell her this is necessary

This offset to the forehead is because I didn't want to put the other end of the string in the middle of the lens. For ceiling mount, string is under the projector, so wife should put string on her nose, or perhaps hold it between her teeth like a bit.

On a more serious note, the measurement can be performed for each viewer location. I wonder what your angle is Tryg. Though, its probably not essential for everyone to measure. The important point is that the angles experienced by each viewer don't vary that much. Even if your angle to a retro-reflective screen varies from 20 to 22 degrees, its no problemo for uniformity, but that viewer will only get say a 2.0 gain and not a 2.8 gain. This just confirms the consistent response of the retro-reflective screen over a small range of angles, since the angles are surprisingly consistent for each individual viewer.
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post #1099 of 3787 Old 06-11-2008, 05:52 AM
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Does having a longer throw reduce the impact of PJ height and improve gain in the offset seats? Seems like the PJ level, if further back, results in a shallower angle to the screen, mitigating some of the effect of PJ height relative to the viewer. I'm going on Tryg's PJ height of 8 ft with normal couch seating, and yet his apparent satisfaction with the setup.

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post #1100 of 3787 Old 06-11-2008, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Tag View Post

Guys, I really recommend you determine the angles, either analytically with Excel or, its kind of fun to have your wife sit there looking dumb holding a piece of string to her forehead. Or, you can do the trig or, maybe the projector calculator websites should tell you the angles. I think this is a pretty interesting result, that the angle varies so little. Its surprising to me. In retropspect its not surprising because nobody has been complaining about brightness varying across the screen. But its nice to know why now.

Or you could simply plug your dimensions into my All Screen Gain Calculator (see my signature link), and let it calculate the angles and the gains for you. It's a whole lot faster than chasing your wife around the room with a string (though possibly less fun).
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post #1101 of 3787 Old 06-11-2008, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLBoy View Post

Or you could simply plug your dimensions into my All Screen Gain Calculator (see my signature link), and let it calculate the angles and the gains for you. It's a whole lot faster than chasing your wife around the room with a string (though possibly less fun).

Excellent. It might be fun if you imported that spreadsheet into docs.google.com with worldwide sharing option. I noticed that in my taking one measurement using trig and one using a string and a protractor, one or both are incorrect. I'm going to stick to your spreadsheet. I notice several non-intuitive results from calculating the angle.

1. The angle (which is proportional to the gain) doesn't vary that much for a given viewer across the screen.
2. 5 viewers sitting at different locations, each will see rather consistent gain across the whole screen. But each will see a different amount of gain.
3. The screen can in fact be brightest AT THE EDGES (though again, imperceptibly). Think of a screen that grows infinitely wide. As you chase the edge of that screen out to infinity with your string, the angle gets closer and closer to zero (or call it 90), which is the brightest angle with the highest gain.

Bottom line is they look great, just interesting to examine the details of why or how. The last part is that they don't seem to need tensioning. I tried to think about maybe this was because of the reflective properties of their microscopic glass spheres, but likely its just that the material is just the right stiffness. Anyway my screen always hangs down I don't run it up and down.
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post #1102 of 3787 Old 06-12-2008, 07:06 AM
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Toe Tag- Good observations. Actually you can get brightness nonuniformity with the HP, but you have to work at it. Try placing a row of viewers several feet ahead of the PJ (or several feet behind the PJ), and you will begin to see significant gain variations from one side of the screen to the other, for off-axis viewers.

For example, in a row well forward of the PJ, viewers on the right will see higher brightness on the right side of the screen than on the left. If you think about it, this makes sense, because the projector's beam to the right side of the screen is more nearly directly lined up with the head (and viewing angle) of a forward viewer on the right, while this is not the case for the left side of the screen.
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post #1103 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 10:52 AM
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I am thinking of moving to the High Power, which I think will be a good fit for my projector/desired screen size. I will probably lower my projector to try to achieve somewhere around 1.5-1.7 gain.

As I will inevitably move to a higher lumen projector, I am interested in comments as to how this screen performs in lower gain configurations, say 1.0-1.2. Is the image quality different in any way, besides brightness? How does the retro-reflectivity and ambient light shedding ability change when moved further away from optimal gain position?
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post #1104 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

I am thinking of moving to the High Power, which I think will be a good fit for my projector/desired screen size. I will probably lower my projector to try to achieve somewhere around 1.5-1.7 gain.

As I will inevitably move to a higher lumen projector, I am interested in comments as to how this screen performs in lower gain configurations, say 1.0-1.2. Is the image quality different in any way, besides brightness? How does the retro-reflectivity and ambient light shedding ability change when moved further away from optimal gain position?

I think the main disadvantage is that the highest gain goes back in the direction of the pj. Thus is the pj is ceiling mounted, up high enough so that gain to the viewers is !.0-1.5, the highest gain is back toward the pj and thus lights up the ceiling more than you would like. Conversely, if the pj is low, so that viewers get the high gain, the ceiling is lit up much less.
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post #1105 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 11:12 AM
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Does anyone know if Da Lite will make high power screens to a custom size?

In my situation I'll be using a 2:05:1 screen size, ordered from Carada, who will do custom sizes. But I'm curious if I wish to later swap out the Carada screen for another, if a company like Da Lite will do custom size. I'm pretty sure Stewart does custom size.

Thanks.
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post #1106 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Does anyone know if Da Lite will make high power screens to a custom size?

In my situation I'll be using a 2:05:1 screen size, ordered from Carada, who will do custom sizes. But I'm curious if I wish to later swap out the Carada screen for another, if a company like Da Lite will do custom size. I'm pretty sure Stewart does custom size.

Thanks.

The answer is yes.
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post #1107 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I think the main disadvantage is that the highest gain goes back in the direction of the pj. Thus is the pj is ceiling mounted, up high enough so that gain to the viewers is !.0-1.5, the highest gain is back toward the pj and thus lights up the ceiling more than you would like. Conversely, if the pj is low, so that viewers get the high gain, the ceiling is lit up much less.

That makes sense. Would probably have to do something about the ceiling.
The main question I have is how a High Power at ~1.3 gain would compare to a Studiotek or Firehawk.
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post #1108 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

That makes sense. Would probably have to do something about the ceiling.
The main question I have is how a High Power at ~1.3 gain would compare to a Studiotek or Firehawk.

I can't speak to the Studiotek, but I can say how much more I like the HP than I did my Firehawk. There is no sheen on the HP, unlike the Firehawk. The HP really does "disappear" when a projected image hits it. I wanted to keep my Firehawk when I got a new Sharp XV-Z20000, but the gain was just so much lower than it had been with my Optoma H79. When I put up the HP, I realized that it wasn't just the gain that was better. It was the screen's utter invisibility.

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post #1109 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I can't speak to the Studiotek, but I can say how much more I like the HP than I did my Firehawk. There is no sheen on the HP, unlike the Firehawk. The HP really does "disappear" when a projected image hits it. I wanted to keep my Firehawk when I got a new Sharp XV-Z20000, but the gain was just so much lower than it had been with my Optoma H79. When I put up the HP, I realized that it wasn't just the gain that was better. It was the screen's utter invisibility.

Thanks. Was it a G3 Firehawk, because that is what I have now.
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post #1110 of 3787 Old 06-20-2008, 01:59 PM
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