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post #3631 of 3709 Old 06-06-2014, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Part of the problem, to get a less expensive screen, you get rid of the tab tensioning system. That means that you can expect wrinkling and curling of the screen. So there are trade offs to get that lower price point.

I don't think I mentioned that they need to get rid of a tab tensioning system. I was asking if they can do a standard screen drop, like most motorized screens, instead of the fancy wire system. That should certainly drop some cost... It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the DNP Flex Classic (no tab tensioning), BTW.

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post #3632 of 3709 Old 06-06-2014, 11:09 AM
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I don't think I mentioned that they need to get rid of a tab tensioning system. I was asking if they can do a standard screen drop, like most motorized screens, instead of the fancy wire system. That should certainly drop some cost...

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When a screen fabric rolls up, if the surface it rolls over is not smooth, any irregularities will be transmitted into the screen fabric. I think that is the problem with what you are asking. No good way to transition from the BD material to another material smoothly and may not be able to make the BD material 60" taller. If they could easily make the BD material taller, then SI would not be limited to 115 (now 120") diagonal size.

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post #3633 of 3709 Old 06-06-2014, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

When a screen fabric rolls up, if the surface it rolls over is not smooth, any irregularities will be transmitted into the screen fabric. I think that is the problem with what you are asking. No good way to transition from the BD material to another material smoothly and may not be able to make the BD material 60" taller. If they could easily make the BD material taller, then SI would not be limited to 115 (now 120") diagonal size.

That's certainly unfortunate, and the price of the SI BD motorized is unfortunate as well...

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post #3634 of 3709 Old 06-06-2014, 01:13 PM
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Does anyone know places in or around Houston where they would have a SI BD on display? I tried bestbuys for last 2 weeks but no one had an SI screen on their floor.
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post #3635 of 3709 Old 06-06-2014, 03:42 PM
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Does anyone know places in or around Houston where they would have a SI BD on display? I tried bestbuys for last 2 weeks but no one had an SI screen on their floor.

Home Entertainment Inc. On I45 near Rayford/Sawdust roads. Has a BD display.

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post #3636 of 3709 Old 06-16-2014, 12:28 PM
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Experts,
So i was finally able to find a local seller who can has BD 1.4 screen 106 inch for $1500. Given that 1.4 gain screen can send back more light will a 2000 lumen projector be able to produce a bright image? (like benq 1070 or epson 3020) or do i need to look for a projector with more light output? I barely watch 3D.
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post #3637 of 3709 Old 06-16-2014, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by simple0621 View Post
Experts,
So i was finally able to find a local seller who can has BD 1.4 screen 106 inch for $1500. Given that 1.4 gain screen can send back more light will a 2000 lumen projector be able to produce a bright image? (like benq 1070 or epson 3020) or do i need to look for a projector with more light output? I barely watch 3D.
Since that is well below cost, what is the catch? Is it an older version? A 106" 1.4 gain screen will be very bright with either of those projectors.

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post #3638 of 3709 Old 06-16-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by simple0621 View Post
Experts,
So i was finally able to find a local seller who can has BD 1.4 screen 106 inch for $1500. Given that 1.4 gain screen can send back more light will a 2000 lumen projector be able to produce a bright image? (like benq 1070 or epson 3020) or do i need to look for a projector with more light output? I barely watch 3D.
Since that is well below cost, what is the catch? Is it an older version? A 106" 1.4 gain screen will be very bright with either of those projectors.
It is a used screen, i think its about an year old one.
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post #3639 of 3709 Old 06-17-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by simple0621 View Post
Experts,
So i was finally able to find a local seller who can has BD 1.4 screen 106 inch for $1500. Given that 1.4 gain screen can send back more light will a 2000 lumen projector be able to produce a bright image? (like benq 1070 or epson 3020) or do i need to look for a projector with more light output? I barely watch 3D.
Dear Experts,
Any suggestions on my question? I am trying to decide if i should go with a simple projector like Benq 1070 or should look for more light output ones like Epson 5030? Also would there be a lot of diff in the picture given the prices diff?
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post #3640 of 3709 Old 06-18-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by simple0621 View Post
Dear Experts,
Any suggestions on my question? I am trying to decide if i should go with a simple projector like Benq 1070 or should look for more light output ones like Epson 5030? Also would there be a lot of diff in the picture given the prices diff?
Not really a question for the screen forum, but yes there will be a big contrast level difference between the $2100-$2500 Epson5030 and the projectors under $1000. Because you aren't specifically after 3D, if you can afford the 5030 and darken your room well, you should give the Sony hw40es a look. It's the same price range as the 5030, but has slightly better picture qualities, less visible pixels and runs quieter.

If you can't afford the hw40es or can't darken your room (which I'm guessing is the case because you're in the BlackDiamond thread) the w1070 will still give a very good picture for 1/3 the price.

Unless you need something special for a very specific situation, those two will be your best choices..unless you can really darken your room well and afford a JVC.

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post #3641 of 3709 Old 06-21-2014, 09:21 PM
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Hello guys, given the size of my room I'll be getting a BENQ W1080ST, I'll be doing something around 80/85''. It is my first projector, coming from a 50'' plasma and I do like to do some tv watching with the lights on at some points so I'm kinda unsure on what screen to get. Do you think it is worth to get one of these screens? Given how cheap the projector itself is. It doesn't have great blacks, although given the price range I keep hearing they are fairly acceptable, I'm just not sure on whether such expensive screen is worth it considering the projector. I'll be viewing from around 7 and a half ft. Don't recommend buying a TV please, as those come at 5k+ € for 75'' where I live That is the reason why I'd rather get a projector.

Thanks!
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post #3642 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 10:24 AM
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You will not have good results pairing any short-throw projector with a reflective screen that is specifically designed for light-room use. The screen works by redirecting room light that hits the screen off toward the opposite side instead of toward the seated viewer, while reflecting most of the centered projector image back toward the center (where the seated viewer is) which both darkens some angles of ambient light while increasing the mostly straight angle of projector light.

The problem is that short-throw projectors have to use wider angles of light (hitting a bigger area from a shorter distance) so the top/bottom and sides of the image will be noticeably dimmer than the very middle. This affect already happens to longer throw projectors paired with this screen, but it will become VERY exaggerated by using a short-throw PJ.

You should either consider a less reflective screen for the w1080, or a longer throw projector (if possible) with the reflective screen.

Also remember that the blackdiamond can't help against light that is coming from anywhere near the seating area or above it..so if that is a significant source of light, you'll be better off using a less reflective screen and trying to block or turn down some of that light, or repositioning everything until it isn't a significant source.

In your specific case with the w1080 and a 80-85" screen which will provide about 60-65footlambert, you'll be bright enough to simply use a plain screen or white wall and have good results for daytime television/gaming.
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post #3643 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 10:52 AM
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You will not have good results pairing any short-throw projector with a reflective screen that is specifically designed for light-room use. The screen works by redirecting room light that hits the screen off toward the opposite side instead of toward the seated viewer, while reflecting most of the centered projector image back toward the center (where the seated viewer is) which both darkens some angles of ambient light while increasing the mostly straight angle of projector light.

The problem is that short-throw projectors have to use wider angles of light (hitting a bigger area from a shorter distance) so the top/bottom and sides of the image will be noticeably dimmer than the very middle. This affect already happens to longer throw projectors paired with this screen, but it will become VERY exaggerated by using a short-throw PJ.

You should either consider a less reflective screen for the w1080, or a longer throw projector (if possible) with the reflective screen.

Also remember that the blackdiamond can't help against light that is coming from anywhere near the seating area or above it..so if that is a significant source of light, you'll be better off using a less reflective screen and trying to block or turn down some of that light, or repositioning everything until it isn't a significant source.

In your specific case with the w1080 and a 80-85" screen which will provide about 60-65footlambert, you'll be bright enough to simply use a plain screen or white wall and have good results for daytime television/gaming.
http://vimeo.com/67762493 They think otherwise.
My short throw works great on mine.
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post #3644 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 12:07 PM
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http://vimeo.com/67762493 They think otherwise.
My short throw works great on mine.
You do realize that link is talking about the w1070 which is a standard throw projector and NOT the w1080 which is the short-throw version. Is yours the w1070 or w1080? Also, watch that video and look at how dim the corners are (especially near the end of the video) and remember that's with a standard throw PJ. With a short-throw it's very possible that the entire image will be that dark because it will all be reflected downwards so it hits the floor about 5-6ft from the screen.

It is most likely, because most/all current short-throws sit above or below the screen, that anyone using a ST with this screen (in grey or black) is wasting most of the projector's light on the ceiling or the floor.

If your short-throw is ceiling mounted, you should try looking at your screen from a very low angle (about 2feet up from the floor or less) from directly under the projector. This should give you an idea of how bright the screen COULD be from your center seat if you were using a longer throw projector that was properly setup for that reflective screen.

I can't tell you what to like or not to, but I can tell you that if you like how a shortthrow looks on a reflective screen you'll REALLY like how that screen looks paired with a projector with a longer throw. Especially if everything is aimed properly so the center gives its full brightness.
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post #3645 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 12:29 PM
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You do realize that link is talking about the w1070 which is a standard throw projector and NOT the w1080 which is the short-throw version. Is yours the w1070 or w1080?

It is most likely, because most/all current short-throws sit above or below the screen, that anyone using a ST with this screen (in grey or black) is wasting most of the projector's light on the ceiling or the floor.

If your short-throw is ceiling mounted, you should try looking at your screen from a very low angle (about 2feet up from the floor or less) from directly under the projector. This should give you an idea of how bright the screen COULD be from your center seat if you were using a longer throw projector that was properly setup for that screen.
I should have looked it up. I didn't realize it was that short of a throw distance. I have a bad habit of thinking 12-13 feet as short throw which is where I'm at.
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post #3646 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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I should have looked it up. I didn't realize it was that short of a throw distance. I have a bad habit of thinking 12-13 feet as short throw which is where I'm at.
It's an easy thing to get mixed up when the model names are so similar too. The BD definitely looks more evenly lit the longer the throw-distance is, and like you found, the w1080 is really short.

I really wish there were more screen salesmen that provided honest information about their products' limitations. I'm not meaning to point fingers here, but I've certainly met my share of careless sharks in stores that are more than willing to sell you the more expensive product even if it's clearly the wrong one for your application.

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post #3647 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 01:04 PM
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It's an easy thing to get mixed up when the model names are so similar too. The BD definitely looks more evenly lit the longer the throw-distance is, and like you found, the w1080 is really short.

I really wish there were more screen salesmen that provided honest information about their products' limitations. I'm not meaning to point fingers here, but I've certainly met my share of careless sharks in stores that are more than willing to sell you the more expensive product even if it's clearly the wrong one for your application.
Are the JVC's (RS49 and up) and Sony 600ES considered short throw or standard throw? Looking at purchasing screen and projector down the road. What do you think of one of those projectors with a 144" 2.35:1 1.4 gain BD at about 15.5 feet away?
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It's an easy thing to get mixed up when the model names are so similar too. The BD definitely looks more evenly lit the longer the throw-distance is, and like you found, the w1080 is really short.

I really wish there were more screen salesmen that provided honest information about their products' limitations. I'm not meaning to point fingers here, but I've certainly met my share of careless sharks in stores that are more than willing to sell you the more expensive product even if it's clearly the wrong one for your application.
Think the curved would work better.

"SI’s 35′ Zero Edge Curve gives you the most immersive experience available. Curved screens do have some distinct advantages, especially in installations where the throw is very short (1.6 or less) and pincushion distortion becomes an issue. "
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post #3649 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 01:12 PM
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Think the curved would work better.

"SI’s 35′ Zero Edge Curve gives you the most immersive experience available. Curved screens do have some distinct advantages, especially in installations where the throw is very short (1.6 or less) and pincushion distortion becomes an issue. "
I talked with SI and a sales rep told me that unless you get below that 15 foot mark and/or have an anamorphic lens they didn't recommend the curved screen.
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post #3650 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 01:14 PM
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I should also add that was with the JVC RS49 and 144" 2.35:1 screen that it wasn't recommended to get a curved screen unless you get below the 15' mark. Which you can't get that close of a throw to fill the screen anyways.
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post #3651 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 04:12 PM
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Are the JVC's (RS49 and up) and Sony 600ES considered short throw or standard throw? Looking at purchasing screen and projector down the road. What do you think of one of those projectors with a 144" 2.35:1 1.4 gain BD at about 15.5 feet away?
I haven't seen any JVC or Sony hometheater models that are short-throw.

As a general guideline many projectors can throw roughly 10" diagonal for every foot of distance..so 100" at 10ft. There are still plenty of models that require a slightly farther placement though. Most higher-end models can create that same size screen at 1.6-2X that distance with their ample zoom ranges.

Short-throw is often about half that distance, so you'll get a 100" image around 5-6feet away. There are also ultra ST that will halve that distance once again!
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post #3652 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 04:32 PM
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The grey screens (or darker) are mostly used to darken blacks slightly for projectors with poor black levels and to deflect ambient light from near-screen sources to assist in poor rooms. In a decently darkened room using a projector with respectable black levels the grey screens don't have anything to really improve, so they mostly just bring negative aspects such as color problems, sparkle artifacts, narrower viewing angles, more noticeable grain/texture, or higher than average price. They all suffer at least some small degree of most of these problems..even if it is very little. While a smooth white screen will suffer none, and work just as well or better in a decent room with a solid projector.

Both the JVC and the Sony are great projectors that deserve a fairly darkened room to appreciate.

The other problem is that the darker/reflective screens can only fight light from closer/sharp angles, so overhead cans or lamps near the seating (where it makes the most sense to help you see) will still hurt the grey screen's contrast and black level just as badly as they would a white screen.
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post #3653 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 07:55 PM
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Are the JVC's (RS49 and up) and Sony 600ES considered short throw or standard throw? Looking at purchasing screen and projector down the road. What do you think of one of those projectors with a 144" 2.35:1 1.4 gain BD at about 15.5 feet away?
The JVC and Sony have a lot of range with the throw. They can be short throw and approach a fairly long throw also. In other words they have plenty of throw range to work well with an SI Black Diamond screen. We are dealers for Sony, JVC and SI. Let us know if we can help you.

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post #3654 of 3709 Old 06-24-2014, 08:01 PM
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I should also add that was with the JVC RS49 and 144" 2.35:1 screen that it wasn't recommended to get a curved screen unless you get below the 15' mark. Which you can't get that close of a throw to fill the screen anyways.
Curved screen are best used with an anamorphic lens, especially with shorter throws. The curve helps with reducing or getting rid of the pincushion. As for how short a throw using a JVC shooting onto a 144" 2.35 SI screen. Using zoom method, the minimum throw is 15'-2", but if you are using an A-lens, the minimum throw distance would be 11'-4". At that short a throw distance you are going to have hot spotting problems and would be a bad setup.

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I should also add that was with the JVC RS49 and 144" 2.35:1 screen that it wasn't recommended to get a curved screen unless you get below the 15' mark. Which you can't get that close of a throw to fill the screen anyways.
With an A-lens, you can easily get closer than that. Not saying that short throw is a good idea, just that you can do it.

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Thanks for your input Ftoast, highly valued to me! I can also get the W1070, which would give me a max of 90'' for my room from 7.6 feet. Does it sound better? I'm thinking of getting a plain white screen just to test out the picture quality on the projector itself, since those screens are rather cheap, before considering the black diamond. Also my sitting distance would be more or less the same, 7 and a half feet, would I see any artifacts sitting that close to a 80~90'' screen from screen innovations? Thank you so much for your input!
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post #3657 of 3709 Old 06-25-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CSMartins View Post
Thanks for your input Ftoast, highly valued to me! I can also get the W1070, which would give me a max of 90'' for my room from 7.6 feet. Does it sound better? I'm thinking of getting a plain white screen just to test out the picture quality on the projector itself, since those screens are rather cheap, before considering the black diamond. Also my sitting distance would be more or less the same, 7 and a half feet, would I see any artifacts sitting that close to a 80~90'' screen from screen innovations? Thank you so much for your input!
I think you'll find the 1070 on a 90" or smaller screen to be bright enough to look decent in most situations and a simple set of curtains will handle the rest. The more light (especially bright sunlight) you keep off the screen will make a huge difference while still allowing you to have a comfortable amount of light in the room for walking around, snacking, or talking with company.

The 1070 will make a useable picture on the BD screen but a longer throw (not possible with the 1070) can perform even better..the Benq might still do well enough for you not to be bothered by it though.

In my opinion the BD screens seem to have more problems with color shifting and sparkles than other grey screens I've seen, but some people don't seem to mind them at all, so it largely depends on you. I will post a couple pictures to show some rough examples. Much of the BD promo material itself shows dimming in the corners.

Is your room easy enough to darken if you need/want to? It'll help (even using the BD) for really dark movies if you can close curtains and turn off lights near the screen. You might even consider something as silly as a couple table-lamps with a bit of cooking foil used inside part of the shade to direct more light toward your seating and away from your screen.
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Last edited by Ftoast; 06-25-2014 at 11:11 AM.
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post #3658 of 3709 Old 06-25-2014, 12:09 PM
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Here are a couple screenshots from a BD promo video. Noting that the both are from the same scene, see how the image changes depending on the viewing angle? When viewed straight-on the top corners are much darker than the rest of the image, but when viewed slightly from the left the top/left corner brightens as the top/right darkens further. Look how dingy and dirty the mountain on the right side looks in the angled shot compared to the straight one. This problem with viewing angles on the BD screen material will happen no matter what your room's lighting situation is.




Here is a rough example of what can be expected with a plain white screen/wall in a somewhat dimly lit room. This is using a screen-size larger than yours (105"-110") and a much dimmer 400lumen projector.
The darker parts of the image are still fairly discernible, the only artifacts present are from a small bit of sunlight directly hitting the right side of the screen, and it costs about $2000 less, as will a fixed-frame smooth white screen.






With the 1070 and a 90" screen, you can expect to be about 4X brighter than this.
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post #3659 of 3709 Old 06-25-2014, 02:42 PM
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Anybody have any ideas on how to remove light surface scratches/marks? Not sure how they got there but I can see them from certain angles.
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post #3660 of 3709 Old 06-26-2014, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSMartins View Post
Thanks for your input Ftoast, highly valued to me! I can also get the W1070, which would give me a max of 90'' for my room from 7.6 feet. Does it sound better? I'm thinking of getting a plain white screen just to test out the picture quality on the projector itself, since those screens are rather cheap, before considering the black diamond. Also my sitting distance would be more or less the same, 7 and a half feet, would I see any artifacts sitting that close to a 80~90'' screen from screen innovations? Thank you so much for your input!

You will get hot spotting, shooting onto a 90" diag. 16:9 BD screen from 7'-6" of throw. Minimum throw distance for that size screen is 9'-9"
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