Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Hey, DP13, I didn't realize this before, but you have THE PERFECT room setup for a rear projection screen which would have much better ambient light rejection than the BD. Unfortunately the best screens like the Stewart starglass are around $8K. You would install the PJ in the other room behind the screen. Just thought I would throw that idea out there.

There are other manufacture out there costing $500 onwards.
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post #452 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Right, the second pic DP13 posted is more washed out than I was hoping for. I have white walls and a white ceiling and so wanted the BD to help with that, but at the price it goes for I need to be able to watch in the daytime with the sun coming into the room as well. Maybe a high lumens projector with the BD is the only ticket for reasonable daytime watching.

Try rear projection if you have the space.
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post #453 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedtsc View Post

Try rear projection if you have the space.

You mean project from behind onto a large screen? Someone who owned a showroom showed me his setup to do that and claimed it gave a brighter image. I don't have the space for that, unless I used mirrors, like he did. I have less than 17 feet.
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post #454 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 05:31 PM
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"If I had a white screen I would be seeing nothing on the screen if calibrated as I have it. "

I don't know what your calibration is, but it seems to me the picture would be just as visible w/a white screen, which would just raise black levels and white levels equally.

Which isn't to say you'd like it as much.

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post #455 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 05:33 PM
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I was searching the net a few hours ago and I was astonished by what I found:

Screen Innovations was producing a screen (prior to 2006) named 'Mirage', which was later (in 2006) renamed to 'Visage' which now (in 2008) is called 'Black Diamond'???

Look for yourselves:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/p...vations-visage (Read the review and be amazed by the similarities)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...ions/index.php

So, what to do we have here?
The same product simply renamed (dictated by marketing) or product evolution? (version1='Mirage' -> v.2='Visage' -> v.3='Black Diamond')

I trully hope for the 2nd...
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post #456 of 3676 Old 05-01-2008, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panosp View Post

I was searching the net a few hours ago and I was astonished by what I found:

Screen Innovations was producing a screen (prior to 2006) named 'Mirage', which was later (in 2006) renamed to 'Visage' which now (in 2008) is called 'Black Diamond'???

Look for yourselves:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/p...vations-visage (Read the review and be amazed by the similarities)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...ions/index.php

So, what to do we have here?
The same product simply renamed (dictated by marketing) or product evolution? (version1='Mirage' -> v.2='Visage' -> v.3='Black Diamond')

I trully hope for the 2nd...

You're probably joking or havent read much from avsforum... Go and get a second hand Mirage, they must be cheap... As far as I am concerned it will be a BD
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post #457 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 12:03 AM
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Hehehe! Panosp, you have now cut some sales for SI.

In this case what we really need is a shootout of Visage and Black Diamond. Are there any major improvements or just minor refinements? I would expect the second to be the case. I think SI lowered the gain to get rid of hotspotting. This was mentioned in both Visage's reviews. But for sure at the cost of picture brightness. Those with ambient light coming from behind the projector should get a Firehawk. There was also a mention of the projector's placement - near top or bottom of the screen for best performance. Does this holds to BD as well?

Somebody from SI should now speak out here and clarify what distinguishes Black Diamond from Visage. What are the real improvements?
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post #458 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 12:15 AM
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AFAIK the Mirage and Visage were Supernova's OEM'd from dnp.

Noah
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post #459 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

AFAIK the Mirage and Visage were Supernova's OEM'd from dnp.

It is.
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post #460 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 03:00 AM
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Hmm, after a quick research I believe that Black Diamond screen is dnp material with added one (1.4 gain) or two (0.8 gain) dark grey layer on the front side which makes it "black". All love the idea of Black Diamond and hope that this time it happens.
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post #461 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"If I had a white screen I would be seeing nothing on the screen if calibrated as I have it. "

I don't know what your calibration is, but it seems to me the picture would be just as visible w/a white screen, which would just raise black levels and white levels equally.

Which isn't to say you'd like it as much.

True a neutral gray screen will lower both white and black levels equally, just like a ND filter. And the payoff comes with now being lower a higher lumen projector is required to bring the brightness back to par on the gray screen. If the outside ambient level hasn't changed you now have changed the balance of power between the projector and the ambient.

The issue of gray scale calibration on a darker screen is that lumens have to be raised to center the range equally between white and black. A different calibration settings would be needed for white. I know the gain numbers could be reported as being the same but it's been my finding when the gain comes in the form of sheen on these dark screens calibration is different. I don't understand why but I suspect first the gains are overstated and secondly somehow really low end blacks and darks on the newer higher CR projectors contain very little light to make use of the gain. But when calibrated with ambient in the room that competition the projector wins on the whole by having higher lumens it only ties or looses down near black depending on how much ambient we are talking.

So in my case with the projector set up for a dark screen and the room filled with ambient switching to a white screen like they did in the SI movie my black detail would be wiped out totally because of the combined effect of the ambient and projected light showing me the true color of the screen.

And true in my setup we would be comparing a much lower gain screen with the gray as to a 1.0 gain white screen, and like I said before I don't know how this screen works and I'm sure it's a fine screen given the right projector and a reasonable amount of ambient and wall colors combined. I have been reading a lot of very high expectations for this screen rooms with southern exposure window walls etc. I think and this is just my opinion that's a long stretch asking for FP to produce any kind of good PQ with those kinds of outside ambient levels.


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post #462 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 06:10 AM
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I am a bit confused. Many people here are talking about the poor ambient light rejection that can be seen in some pictures, but to me the rejection is as expected. With the ambient light visible in these pics, a regular TV (DLP, LCD, CRT, or Plasma) would be nearly useless so why would anyone expect a projector to look perfect? Light is hard to handle and in these pics the ambient light is shining directly on the screen. This screen was made to handle ambient light, but I seriously doubt they were trying to handle a spot light or the sun directly.

When a person speaks of anything ambient, they are talking about something that encompasses the entire environment. The amount of light in the room is included in this definition, but not focused areas. Get some curtains!
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post #463 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haarec View Post

Hmm, after a quick research I believe that Black Diamond screen is dnp material with added one (1.4 gain) or two (0.8 gain) dark grey layer on the front side which makes it "black". All love the idea of Black Diamond and hope that this time it happens.

Do some longer research then, because that is not the case.
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post #464 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moa View Post

You're probably joking or havent read much from avsforum... Go and get a second hand Mirage, they must be cheap... As far as I am concerned it will be a BD

YOU must be joking, because you clearly know nothing about these screens. They are not the same. Just by looking at the screen shots that the people posted here you would be able to tell they are not the same, as oppose to actually reading the info about both of them. SO read more on the AVS rather than spreading erroneous info!
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post #465 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 08:14 AM
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I was so willing to post more pictures on this forum so some of you debating to get a BD would get a better feel for it. I was actually going to post pictures with a white screen and the BD. But after reading some of the comments, it would be like posting pictures to convince you all to get a BD. That's not the case...at least not my case...I'll leave that for SI or the dealers. For that you all can wait for a sample or wait for your dealer to get a BD set up as a sample so you can actually see it. I got in from out of town last night and had time to enjoy the screen. It works for me...better than a white screen would due to my living room setup...and thats all that matters.
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post #466 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 08:34 AM
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DP13: "But after reading some of the comments..."
I hope none of my comments qualify for your statement as I TRULLY want the BD to work in my home theater! Like I said before, I have halted the upgrade of my HT for over a month now and I am anxiously waiting for Tuesday when my BD samples will arrive. So, PLEASE (!!!) post some photos, I am dying to see them!



My comments about the 'Mirage' -> 'Visage' -> 'Black Diamond' were passed to SI yesterday night. Today I received some very interesting feedback which I will share with you. This is what SI told me:


"Black Diamond is a 9x optical improvement over Visage. The Visage only filtered unwanted ambient light from to top and bottom of the screen where Black Diamond filters light from all directions “even light within the path of the projector” . This is what makes the contrast improvement possible. Visage washed out with sidelight or light in the path of the projector the same way a high gain screen does.

Two other main goals with Black Diamond.

1. BD had to be at half the price of Visage.
2. BD had to be roll-able in a fixed format, not shipping in crates like Visage.
3. BD had to be able to use the optics on motorized...."


An other interesting point is that the BD material is "directional", ie I have to make sure to hold the material right side up. The production guys have actually put arrows on the back of the samples.
So, in my opinion, the BD material has to be something really special...

I also asked about the vertical lines that appeared on the 2 screens that have already been purchased and are visible on the posted photos. I was told that this material shouldn't have been shipped and it is being replaced as we speak.
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post #467 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 08:54 AM
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First of all, kudos to those who post pictures, the pics are 99% of the reason I keep coming to this thread hoping for some new posts.

Panosp, that is very good to hear (about the lines and how it is an improvement over previous models)!
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post #468 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 09:26 AM
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Thanks Panosp for making a call and getting that info. Much appreciated. To me that's what this thread is all about. To get info from both sides to be able to make an informed decision before spending some bucks. I am still projecting onto my painted dark brown wall until I decide between a BD and Stew Firehawk G3. As good as the wall looks I would hope that either screen would make me feel good or great for spending a couple grand.
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post #469 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedtsc View Post

Try rear projection if you have the space.

Not to steer the subject away again but here is a rear projection setup I did at my store with a Vutec 92" and Mits HC4900 (throw distance about 10'). The room the projector is in must be dark. As you can tell, the light doesn't seem to bother the screen too much on the outside.
Don't slam the iPhone pic either. I know I need quit using it but it is so convenient.

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post #470 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeckerHead View Post

I am a bit confused. Many people here are talking about the poor ambient light rejection that can be seen in some pictures, but to me the rejection is as expected. With the ambient light visible in these pics, a regular TV (DLP, LCD, CRT, or Plasma) would be nearly useless so why would anyone expect a projector to look perfect? Light is hard to handle and in these pics the ambient light is shining directly on the screen. This screen was made to handle ambient light, but I seriously doubt they were trying to handle a spot light or the sun directly.

When a person speaks of anything ambient, they are talking about something that encompasses the entire environment. The amount of light in the room is included in this definition, but not focused areas. Get some curtains!

Good point, the pics that are less flattering to the BD really have to have a CRT or flat panel next to the BD, with the same type of ambient light shining directly on it, to make a fair comparison. The bottom line is I want to be able to watch in the daytime with white walls, a white ceiling, and the sun streaming in but not shining directly on the TV. Those are my daytime viewing conditions now and they present no problem in allowing me to watch a 20" Sony Trinitron CRT without a washed out image. On occasion, the sun shines directly onto the CRT and is not very watchable...I have to use curtains then and don't expect the BD to perform any better under those conditions and don't need it to. The second reason I want the BD is for when I watch under the best conditions I can achieve, which is at night with all the lights off, but which is so compromised by white walls and a white ceiling that it's not even worth thinking about getting a high-contrast projector.
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post #471 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP13 View Post

I was so willing to post more pictures on this forum so some of you debating to get a BD would get a better feel for it. I was actually going to post pictures with a white screen and the BD. But after reading some of the comments, it would be like posting pictures to convince you all to get a BD. That's not the case...at least not my case...I'll leave that for SI or the dealers. For that you all can wait for a sample or wait for your dealer to get a BD set up as a sample so you can actually see it. I got in from out of town last night and had time to enjoy the screen. It works for me...better than a white screen would due to my living room setup...and thats all that matters.

Thanks for your picture and I'm glad it works for you.

Comparison at this time should be made with a gray with similar gain screen. We all know it is better than white screen.

We are all desperate for a good ambient rejection screen that we want it to work so badly. Let's try to be more objective and wait for more pics and hopefully shootouts to know its advantage/s and limitation.
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post #472 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panosp View Post

.... An other interesting point is that the BD material is "directional", ie I have to make sure to hold the material right side up. The production guys have actually put arrows on the back of the samples.

Do we know if the arrows would be mounted in one direction for a ceiling mounted PJ and in the other direction for a table mount?
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post #473 of 3676 Old 05-02-2008, 02:23 PM
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For the time being no

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike N Ike View Post

Do we know if the arrows would be mounted in one direction for a ceiling mounted PJ and in the other direction for a table mount?

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post #474 of 3676 Old 05-03-2008, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP13 View Post

I was so willing to post more pictures on this forum so some of you debating to get a BD would get a better feel for it. I was actually going to post pictures with a white screen and the BD. But after reading some of the comments, it would be like posting pictures to convince you all to get a BD. That's not the case...at least not my case...I'll leave that for SI or the dealers. For that you all can wait for a sample or wait for your dealer to get a BD set up as a sample so you can actually see it. I got in from out of town last night and had time to enjoy the screen. It works for me...better than a white screen would due to my living room setup...and thats all that matters.

DP13,
Your set-up is almost identical to mine and if you have a few extra shots, I would love to see additional screen shots (lights on and off) of so additional material. I understand if you don't want to post them on the forum.

With that said I have a question as well. It would make sense to me, foolish as it may sound, that the projector would need to be re-calibrated to work best with ambient light. If a projector is calibrated to show accurate colors with no interference, wouldn't you need to tweak it for the interference from either an incandescent bulb or even sun light coming through? I would think one could simply store a setting in the projector to help adjust for that. I don't think it will make it perfect, but I imagine it would help with some of the color inaccuracies that may occur. Is this correct?

Thanks so much for your feedback. Those of use who haven't pulled the trigger yet are extremely grateful!!!

Andrew

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post #475 of 3676 Old 05-03-2008, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Xyst View Post

DP13,
Your set-up is almost identical to mine and if you have a few extra shots, I would love to see additional screen shots (lights on and off) of so additional material. I understand if you don't want to post them on the forum.

With that said I have a question as well. It would make sense to me, foolish as it may sound, that the projector would need to be re-calibrated to work best with ambient light. If a projector is calibrated to show accurate colors with no interference, wouldn't you need to tweak it for the interference from either an incandescent bulb or even sun light coming through? I would think one could simply store a setting in the projector to help adjust for that. I don't think it will make it perfect, but I imagine it would help with some of the color inaccuracies that may occur. Is this correct?

Thanks so much for your feedback. Those of use who haven't pulled the trigger yet are extremely grateful!!!

Andrew

-That is correct. My projector has 3 memories. I've re-calibrated every memory for different times of the day. 1 for when ambient light is at its most (daylight), 2 when ambient light is drastically reduced (night) and 3, for other scenarios, sports, etc. This way the picture is at its best and its as simple as pressing one button on the remote.
-Sorry about the pictures. I won't be posting anymore. I'm sure that people with the BD or with samples of the BD, will agree. The camera shows way more light than there actually is. What you see is not what the camera sees. Its almost as if the camera picks up the light the BD hides to the naked eye.
-Trust me, those that have the BD or the sample, try it, you will know exactly what I'm talking about.
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post #476 of 3676 Old 05-03-2008, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP13 View Post

-That is correct. My projector has 3 memories. I've re-calibrated every memory for different times of the day. 1 for when ambient light is at its most (daylight), 2 when ambient light is drastically reduced (night) and 3, for other scenarios, sports, etc. This way the picture is at its best and its as simple as pressing one button on the remote.
-Sorry about the pictures. I won't be posting anymore. I'm sure that people with the BD or with samples of the BD, will agree. The camera shows way more light than there actually is. What you see is not what the camera sees. Its almost as if the camera picks up the light the BD hides to the naked eye.
-Trust me, those that have the BD or the sample, try it, you will know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you use automatic light metering settings on your camera it tends to overexpose the image you capture if you measure from a dark surface.
The image appears lighter than it should be.

You must use manual exposure settings and measure from a 'grey card' ( http://www.photography.ca/phototips/meter.html ) at the screen location.
Use the measured settings to capture an image that will give a better impression of what you see.
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post #477 of 3676 Old 05-03-2008, 11:03 PM
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Did I miss something? Did someone attack DP13 or his screen? I don't see anything here that should cause offense.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #478 of 3676 Old 05-04-2008, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

YOU must be joking, because you clearly know nothing about these screens. They are not the same. Just by looking at the screen shots that the people posted here you would be able to tell they are not the same, as oppose to actually reading the info about both of them. SO read more on the AVS rather than spreading erroneous info!

Ever heard about irony Mikenificent1 ?
Read my post again... Or think a bit more before posting... Thanks
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post #479 of 3676 Old 05-04-2008, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panosp View Post

I was searching the net a few hours ago and I was astonished by what I found:

Screen Innovations was producing a screen (prior to 2006) named 'Mirage', which was later (in 2006) renamed to 'Visage' which now (in 2008) is called 'Black Diamond'???

Look for yourselves:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/p...vations-visage (Read the review and be amazed by the similarities)

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj...ions/index.php

So, what to do we have here?
The same product simply renamed (dictated by marketing) or product evolution? (version1='Mirage' -> v.2='Visage' -> v.3='Black Diamond')

I trully hope for the 2nd...

And at 50% lower msrp no less!! That's evolution in my books.

_________________________________
Converted to Mac and not going back.....
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post #480 of 3676 Old 05-04-2008, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avdesignshouston View Post

Not to steer the subject away again but here is a rear projection setup I did at my store with a Vutec 92" and Mits HC4900 (throw distance about 10'). The room the projector is in must be dark. As you can tell, the light doesn't seem to bother the screen too much on the outside.
Don't slam the iPhone pic either. I know I need quit using it but it is so convenient.

avdesignhouston,

In your opinion, how did the BD in ambient light compare to a rear projection set-up?

Thanks,
Andrew

Xbox Live: SubPrime Debt

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