Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3676 Old 06-18-2008, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funk74 View Post

It's unfortunate to here this about the 1.4 gain BD screen. I was hoping to get one in a few months when my HT is built out.

HRD, Did Ryan give you any idea of when it would be available again?

Maybe I'll do a DIY screen in the mean time.

Anyone out there doing a 2.35:1 setup with a JVC-RS2? What are your thougts on it?

thanks

I'm in the same boat as you funk. I was really looking forward to a 1.4 retractable at the end of summer. I guess I'm back in the waiting game though until they work out the "kinks".

I saw the 1.4 at a local dealer and thought that was about right for me. I did a direct comparison with a 0.9 Carada Gray screen and I much preferred the 1.4 BD.

I'm curious where a negative gain screen would be useful? (Can ya tell I'm still new at this? )

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post #722 of 3676 Old 06-18-2008, 05:28 PM
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This post was from a few days ago, but I just read it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyst View Post

Agreed, if they offered a trade up program I would be more inclined to give the .8 a shot. It would have to be a pretty solid deal though as I would not spend anywhere near that kind of money on a screen twice. If we're talking about a $100 shipping/restocking fee I'm in, but even a 50% discount wouldn't be worth it. I doubt this would be reasonable from a business sense though.

I too would be inclined to order the .8 now if they would let us trade up when the 1.4 ships again. To avoid abuse, they could make the following guidelines:

1. Side-by-side comparison encouraged at a local dealer to make sure they want the tradeoffs with the 1.4 gain; though it would only be fair to cut the dealer in on a little fee for this.
2. A nominal fee to pay for the material, say $100-250, since they already made profit on the .8 screen, plus S&H.
3. Return of the old screen to SI at customer's expense to avoid resales cannibalizing sales of new 0.8 and 1.4 screens.
4. If the customer ends up NOT wanting the 1.4 gain, they can return it, but pay a restocking fee since it can no longer be sold as new. This isn't as crucial for SI to do, as any returns can go out to other trade-ups, and the goodwill from NOT charging a restocking fee will be tremendous, as the S&H round trip plus the upgrade fee would already be a few hundred dollars.

What do you guys think? (Including SI?)

David
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post #723 of 3676 Old 06-18-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funk74 View Post

It's unfortunate to here this about the 1.4 gain BD screen. I was hoping to get one in a few months when my HT is built out.

HRD, Did Ryan give you any idea of when it would be available again?

Maybe I'll do a DIY screen in the mean time.

Anyone out there doing a 2.35:1 setup with a JVC-RS2? What are your thougts on it?

thanks

Ryan said 2009, just like the other posts here said. My impression is sales of the .8 are so good that SI would rather concentrate on bringing the Reference series of motorized screens and the Reference series of curved screens out.

I saw an RS2 on a 11-foot wide High Power and it looked great. How wide were you thinking of going? I'd be concerned about getting enough brightness with a large screen if you are going to use the RS2.
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post #724 of 3676 Old 06-18-2008, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haarec View Post

Could you tell how big is the screen that you use with VW60 and how big was Black Diamond? Maybe some more info about distance to the projector, mode, etc?

I was comparing the SI screen sample (~2x3 ft) against a smaller Da-lite screen sample (8x11") that were up against an off-white wall. The SI screen sample consisted of a BD vs a ~1.0 white screen sample. The smaller Da-lite sample was overlaying the 1.0 white screen sample. PJ to wall distance was 15ft. Lamp was set to high, iris to auto1 and picture mode to dynamic. I have attached a couple of images. Pics were taken at about 3PM with a window covered with sheer blinds on either side of the screen on the north wall and a row of three windows with sheer blinds within 10 ft on the east wall to the right of the screen samples. A large glass sliding door is adjacent to the windows on the east wall about 17 ft from the screen samples. There is no direct sunlight on the screen wall, just a lot of indirect lighting. The camera images are pretty close to what I saw.
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post #725 of 3676 Old 06-19-2008, 12:06 AM
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Thank you. This is helpfull! Could you make some pics with only a white image instead colorfull? This could help to estimate a real gain of those two versions of Black Diamond and help to choose a right size, considering a light amount we can obtain from a projector. Perhaps some more pics with total black instead of white and also some in dark condition could show a white level in addition to the black level we can see on your pics.

Great comparison!
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post #726 of 3676 Old 06-19-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Ryan said 2009, just like the other posts here said. My impression is sales of the .8 are so good that SI would rather concentrate on bringing the Reference series of motorized screens and the Reference series of curved screens out.

I saw an RS2 on a 11-foot wide Higth Power and it looked great. How wide were you thinking of going? I'd be concerned about getting enough brightness with a large screen if you are going to use the RS2.

Too bad they are putting off the 1.4, I would think there would be more people that want one, judging from this board.

Well I was thinking about putting in the 133" 2.35:1 BD with the 1.4 gain. Also using a JVC RS2 projector with a anamorphic lens (type TBD). My media room will about 20x21 ft when finished. There are a couple of windows on one wall, but I can easily place blackout curtains on them.

The reason I'd prefer the 1.4 is just due to the size of the screen I want and all of the screen calculators I have used seem to indicate that 0.8 gain won't be enough to get an adequate ft-Lamberts with this setup.

I went to austin and saw the 0.8 gain, which looked great, but I know there will be times that I won't have all of the lights off like watching sports and I just believe the higher gain screen will look better.

I wish this would have worked out but it is what it is...

Unless anyone else has any other suggestions.

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post #727 of 3676 Old 06-19-2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funk74 View Post

Too bad they are putting off the 1.4, I would think there would be more people that want one, judging from this board.

Well I was thinking about putting in the 133" 2.35:1 BD with the 1.4 gain. Also using a JVC RS2 projector with a anamorphic lens (type TBD). My media room will about 20x21 ft when finished. There are a couple of windows on one wall, but I can easily place blackout curtains on them.

The reason I'd prefer the 1.4 is just due to the size of the screen I want and all of the screen calculators I have used seem to indicate that 0.8 gain won't be enough to get an adequate ft-Lamberts with this setup.

I went to austin and saw the 0.8 gain, which looked great, but I know there will be times that I won't have all of the lights off like watching sports and I just believe the higher gain screen will look better.

I wish this would have worked out but it is what it is...

Unless anyone else has any other suggestions.

There could be more potential customers wanting the 1.4 than the .8, but it seems there are enough wanting the .8 to keep SI busy making BD screens.

If your budget can swing the RS2, a lens, and a 133" BD, your best bet might be to buy a BD and a High Power both and use whatever looks better for the viewing material and viewing conditions at the time. You can get a High Power in a size that matches the size of the BD easily enough and you could go with a Model C pulldown if you wanted to save money or an electric if you wanted the convenience of that.

I know someone with three 11-foot wide fixed frame cinemascope screens, a High Power, a Firehawk, and a Studiotek.
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post #728 of 3676 Old 06-19-2008, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

There could be more potential customers wanting the 1.4 than the .8, but it seems there are enough wanting the .8 to keep SI busy making BD screens.

If your budget can swing the RS2, a lens, and a 133" BD, your best bet might be to buy a BD and a High Power both and use whatever looks better for the viewing material and viewing conditions at the time. You can get a High Power in a size that matches the size of the BD easily enough and you could go with a Model C pulldown if you wanted to save money or an electric if you wanted the convenience of that.

I know someone with three 11-foot wide fixed frame cinemascope screens, a High Power, a Firehawk, and a Studiotek.

Not to knock your suggestion hrd, and I know there are some die hards out there that use multiple screens, but I think the vast majority of users are more interested in having a general purpose screen.

I demoed the BD 1.4 side by side with a Carada 0.9 gray screen of the same size and to me the BD won hands down. I assume there would be a similar reaction to the 0.8 vs. the 1.4 BD side by side for a lot of people. I was fortunate to see the screen in both full light (glass store front) and a dedicated theater. I thought for the ambient light situation the 1.4 was much more useful.

I have often thought about just using a Sony Dyna clear screen as a stop gap (since they can be had for song) until the 1.4 becomes available again. But it may not be worth the hassle and again we get into the multiple screen conundrum.

Just my 2 cents.

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post #729 of 3676 Old 06-19-2008, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyst View Post


I demoed the BD 1.4 side by side with a Carada 0.9 gray screen of the same size and to me the BD won hands down.

Under the controlled lighting conditions (dedicated home theater), how did the
the BD win hands down? In what way?

Thanks.
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post #730 of 3676 Old 06-20-2008, 09:24 AM
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I had planned on getting the 1.4 gain BD once the motorized version came out, but now that it looks like the 1.4 wont be available for a while (if ever), I am thinking about the feasiblity of using the 0.8 in my set up. I think i may have the lumens (i have an Infocus 7205), but I dont recall whether anyone of the posters who have seen the BD in person, has commented on how the light rejection properties of the 0.8 compare to the 1.4.

any info on this?

thanks
Ian
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post #731 of 3676 Old 06-20-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haarec View Post

Thank you. This is helpfull! Could you make some pics with only a white image instead colorfull? This could help to estimate a real gain of those two versions of Black Diamond and help to choose a right size, considering a light amount we can obtain from a projector. Perhaps some more pics with total black instead of white and also some in dark condition could show a white level in addition to the black level we can see on your pics.

Great comparison!

Sorry, I had already returned the screen samples to my dealer.
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post #732 of 3676 Old 06-20-2008, 11:41 AM
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Too bad. Thanks anyway.
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post #733 of 3676 Old 06-21-2008, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanK View Post

I had planned on getting the 1.4 gain BD once the motorized version came out, but now that it looks like the 1.4 wont be available for a while (if ever), I am thinking about the feasiblity of using the 0.8 in my set up. I think i may have the lumens (i have an Infocus 7205), but I dont recall whether anyone of the posters who have seen the BD in person, has commented on how the light rejection properties of the 0.8 compare to the 1.4.

any info on this?

thanks
Ian

Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a negative gain screen be better at ambient light rejection compared to a positive gain screen?

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post #734 of 3676 Old 06-21-2008, 10:48 AM
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Depends.

If the lower gain is from more tint, it will lower whites as much as blacks.

If it's from more directionality, it could go either way depending on where the light is coming from.

I don't know how the BD works, so it may be none of the above

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post #735 of 3676 Old 06-22-2008, 07:57 AM
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I'd be willing to do a head to head compare for everyone. Right now I have the firehawk sample and Vutec sent me every one of their samples (even though I just asked for one.) Only problem with Vutec's is that they are 8"x11"...not really the best size. I'd like to get a 1.4 sample of BD to do a head to head. Not sure if SI would be willing to do that now that there is an issue/delay...anyone out there have a sample?

My set up is pretty simple. Light controlled (4 sconce lights with dual 100 watt bulbs) 14x16 room, Panasonic PT-AEw000U projector 15' from screen, and the .8 Black Diamond. The projector is uncalibrated (less than 15 hrs on it) but that should be a moot point as the image projected will be used on all samples. For the photo's I'll be using a fellow photographers (used to be in the racket) setup of a Canon 40D and a wide angle 2.8F lens. This will allow me to take much better photo's than that crapCanon p&s that I had since the beginning of time.

Hoping to make this as fruitful for those thinking about buying the .8 rather than the 1.4 since there is a delay. So I'm asking everyone here what are all the conditions you would like to see?
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post #736 of 3676 Old 06-22-2008, 11:42 AM
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My point is to compare plain white page (gain 1.0) with screen material to get know what is a white level (real gain) that can be obtained on BD screens - and - if we can have a pop effect with not expensive LCD/LCOS projector on it. So my "wish" is:

1. light spot 100" diagonal (16/9, 87" wide) or similar.
2. within a light spot: samples and a white page.
3. PJ set on normal mode (AE2000 gives about 800 lumens in this mode)
4. white color projected
5. black color projected
6. each (white and black) in three conditions: with no light at all, dimmed light and full light
7. pics showing a black frame too

A result of this research could be even better if you have a grayscale gradient - from white to black in a few steps. This could show how a screen material handles a greys in diferent light conditions with PJ gamma about 2.3.
I hope this is not too much
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post #737 of 3676 Old 06-22-2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haarec View Post

My point is to compare plain white page (gain 1.0) with screen material to get know what is a white level (real gain) that can be obtained on BD screens - and - if we can have a pop effect with not expensive LCD/LCOS projector on it. So my "wish" is:

1. light spot 100" diagonal (16/9, 87" wide) or similar.
2. within a light spot: samples and a white page.
3. PJ set on normal mode (AE2000 gives about 800 lumens in this mode)
4. white color projected
5. black color projected
6. each (white and black) in three conditions: with no light at all, dimmed light and full light
7. pics showing a black frame too

A result of this research could be even better if you have a grayscale gradient - from white to black in a few steps. This could show how a screen material handles a greys in diferent light conditions with PJ gamma about 2.3.
I hope this is not too much

Either I've had too much sun and beer or I'm and idiot. Either way can you dumb this down?

I'm thinking pick a move/scene (or a few) and I'll compare each screen material under different lighting conditions. I'll also set the projector to whatever preset conditions needed.
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post #738 of 3676 Old 06-22-2008, 09:21 PM
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It would be 6 pics. All samples that are worth something at once - three shots with white color projected, three shots with black color projected - in different light conditions it makes total 6 pics. That is all.
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post #739 of 3676 Old 06-23-2008, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speciman View Post

From my own experience, Josh's comment about testing it in your own room rings true. I have a multi-use room with indirect sunlight and a Sony VPL-VW60 and I found that the 1.4 BD image to have good blacks but rather a weak image during afternoon viewing. I compared it to a Da-lite Hi Power and even though there was some crushing of the blacks the image was much more watchable, there was a lot more pop to the image and less strain on the eyes. If I had a pj with twice the lumens, I'm sure the BD image would have been fine perhaps better than the Hi Power. So eventhough I waited months for the BD screen material to become available, I regretfully had to turn to the Hi Power screen because it provided a better image for my particular pj and lighting conditions. However, I'm glad that the new BD screen has worked out for some other people.

I've had the same experience, high contrast pjs are almost worthless in a bright environment as its the brightness that drives the perceived contrast...the average 300:1; 3000 lumen boardroom pj will smoke almost any home theater pj (10K:1 and 1000 lumen) with lights on.
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post #740 of 3676 Old 06-25-2008, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

Either I've had too much sun and beer or I'm and idiot. Either way can you dumb this down?

I'm thinking pick a move/scene (or a few) and I'll compare each screen material under different lighting conditions. I'll also set the projector to whatever preset conditions needed.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm always excited for a little head to head action. Perhaps you could use some scenes from 8-mile, then the content matches the battle .

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post #741 of 3676 Old 06-25-2008, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyst View Post

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm always excited for a little head to head action. Perhaps you could use some scenes from 8-mile, then the content matches the battle .

Waiting on a free weekend for my friends camera (he's a wedding photog.) The following weekend might be the first chance I get. However, in the mean time...anyone still have a 1.4 BD sample they'd like to see in the head to head? Might help in making a decision to buy a .8 rather than waiting on SI to re-release next year.
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post #742 of 3676 Old 06-26-2008, 06:00 AM
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Where the heck does one buy a 0.8gain of these, if one lives outside the US!
It cannot be found anywhere on the net for sale?!

Just because there was a problem with the 1.4, shouldn`t stop the 0.8 from
have beeing shipped on April 18th! One would think??
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post #743 of 3676 Old 06-26-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

Where the heck does one buy a 0.8gain of these, if one lives outside the US!
It cannot be found anywhere on the net for sale?!

Just because there was a problem with the 1.4, shouldn`t stop the 0.8 from
have beeing shipped on April 18th! One would think??

ProjectorZone sells the BD. I don't know if they will fill orders that require shipping a screen outside the US or Canada. You'll have to ask them.

http://www.projectorzone.com/

Hopefully, AV Science will carry them soon.

You can also buy directly from SI if they will ship to you.
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post #744 of 3676 Old 06-26-2008, 09:02 AM
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Okidoki! thanks for the info!

Wonder what pricerange the curved bd will be
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post #745 of 3676 Old 06-26-2008, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

Okidoki! thanks for the info!

Wonder what pricerange the curved bd will be

I know that SI is selling direct as well. If AVS decides not to be a dealer, you could contact them and see if they can point you in the right direction.

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post #746 of 3676 Old 07-01-2008, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batborsen View Post

Okidoki! thanks for the info!

Wonder what pricerange the curved bd will be

hrd mentioned in post 717 that motorized screens would be about 1/3rd more than fixed, so I say that curved will be as least as much.

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post #747 of 3676 Old 07-06-2008, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi hookem,

Any chance to do a side by side yet? Just wondering if you've seen them next to each other, I know you've been trying to finagle a better phptographer for the post (no offense intended!)

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post #748 of 3676 Old 07-15-2008, 08:37 PM
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I was wondering if anyone with a 2.35:1 Black Diamond can comment on if you need side masking or not when projecting non 2.35:1. I know different projectors may work better than others but I was just wondering. I have a panasonic AX-200 if anyone happens to have the black diamond with this projector.

I'm waiting for the electric roll down black diamond but don't know if they will be offering it in a model with drop down side masking like some other companies do. If they don't and I deceide I want side masking is there any easy way to do it with a roll down screen?

Thanks
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post #749 of 3676 Old 07-19-2008, 10:30 AM
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nice

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post #750 of 3676 Old 07-19-2008, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper2075 View Post

I was wondering if anyone with a 2.35:1 Black Diamond can comment on if you need side masking or not when projecting non 2.35:1. I know different projectors may work better than others but I was just wondering. I have a panasonic AX-200 if anyone happens to have the black diamond with this projector.

I'm waiting for the electric roll down black diamond but don't know if they will be offering it in a model with drop down side masking like some other companies do. If they don't and I deceide I want side masking is there any easy way to do it with a roll down screen?

Thanks

While I don't have a 2.35:1 Black Diamond, I do have the 16:9 .8 gain version with a Mits HC1500. When nothing is projecting on the screen (or when there are black bars), it looks just like a TV that has been turned off. To me at least, it seems to be good enough to not need side masking.

I know it has been said many times but this thing really works wonders with lots of ambient light. I have a lot of light in my room (comes from directly behind the projector and hits the screen directly) and during the day it used to be impossible to watch with the projector but now it is perfectly viewable. While it is still a bit better at night with the room dark, the difference is maginal.

The only real down side is that you need a projector with a high light output for this screen. While I can get a viewable picture with this projector, it still feels a bit dim, especially next to my LCD. But considering how now I can also watch during the day, for me at least it is a good tradeoff.
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