Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 3676 Old 03-13-2008, 05:21 PM
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[quote=hrd;13373549]I like the idea of being able to watch in the daytime and would surely use it for that. But I also have white walls and a white ceiling, which could make this screen the best possible screen for me for watching at night.
QUOTE]


Same situation for me hrd - white walls and white ceiling and I am not willing to paint them black, so even with perfect light control I can't use your typical "Theater" calibrations for iris, gamma, or contrast. I've been clicking on SI's website for what seems like a year - I'll likely buy one sight unseen. I also have 6 45" wood blind windows in my home theater room, and as far as I know SI is the first company making a electric motorized screen (that utilizes this kind of technology), which is a must for me.
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post #122 of 3676 Old 03-13-2008, 05:39 PM
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hrd,
I really hope that the screen works well during the day with some light too. I just hope that it does not give up much at all during night time with the lights off. I do not have 100% light control (I have about 24 feet of windows), but I am working on some nice blackout curtains. My goal is with the curtains and screen during the day the image would be watchable.
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post #123 of 3676 Old 03-13-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadZastrow View Post

I saw a demo of the Black Diamond screen today at a show in Minneapolis, MN. It is unbelievable. The difference is unreal.

They put a normal highend white screen over half of the picture and it was night and day.

You will love it. I can't wait to get my hands on one. The one we saw was 80". They said they can do up to 150" seamless.

A Black Diamond should have been on display at the EHX show today. According to the article in the link, the EHX show is the "official launch" for the Black Diamond.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080303/20080303005250.html?.v=1
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post #124 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChadZastrow View Post

I saw a demo of the Black Diamond screen today at a show in Minneapolis, MN. It is unbelievable. The difference is unreal.

They put a normal highend white screen over half of the picture and it was night and day.

You will love it. I can't wait to get my hands on one. The one we saw was 80". They said they can do up to 150" seamless.

Do you know what projector was used?
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post #125 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 09:29 AM
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ProjectorZone just released their pricing on the Black Diamonds:

http://www.projectorzone.com/screen-...reference.html

Ugh...I am still debating on whether to pull the trigger and spending almost twice as much as a Carada BW. It pains me to think that the screen will cost more than the projector (HC4900)!
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post #126 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 11:12 AM
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I have a very strong feeling that I will not be able to see one of these screens before I purchase it. There are no dealers that display in the Indianapolis area that I can find.

Now that projectorzone.com has them up and listed should I pull the trigger and go for it? I will be using with the Sony Black Pearl (VW60) which I have been waiting to order until I decided on screen.

Still a bit undecided!

Thanks for the thoughts!
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post #127 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 11:38 AM
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A Black Pearl on a Black Diamond? Sounds like art! And it 's actually a combo I'm thinking about too.
But the Black Diamond is not cheap, and nobody really knows if it 's really that good and how it behaves in a dark environment. So I would at least wait for some reviews. Actually, it 's exactly what I 'm going to do. Reviews should be out pretty soon.
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post #128 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 11:45 AM
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Yes, I don't think I am going to get a chance to demo it as well, and would most likely buying it sight unseen. To be honest, SI's video has pretty much sold me...the screen appears to eliminate all of the light scatter in a dark room. There is one scene where you can see the light scatter disappears as they remove the regular screen. Very impressive...but I agree, I would feel more confident and willing to spend more once I can see it and/or have an impartial evaluation.
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post #129 of 3676 Old 03-14-2008, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

I have a very strong feeling that I will not be able to see one of these screens before I purchase it. There are no dealers that display in the Indianapolis area that I can find.

Now that projectorzone.com has them up and listed should I pull the trigger and go for it? I will be using with the Sony Black Pearl (VW60) which I have been waiting to order until I decided on screen.

Still a bit undecided!

Thanks for the thoughts!

SI told me they want to get a screen to Jason to review in April. Also, AV Science might become a dealer, which means you may be able to buy a screen from a dealer that allows returns.
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post #130 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 05:10 AM
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I'm interested to know about their "Super Flat” Rigid Horizontal Screen Tensioning System for their retractable screens. I might buy one if it really works.
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post #131 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

SI told me they want to get a screen to Jason to review in April. Also, AV Science might become a dealer, which means you may be able to buy a screen from a dealer that allows returns.

I've already been waiting over 2 months for the dang screen to come out!

"First quarter" to those of us in the real world means the first 3 months of the year; not April.

Okay.... I'll get off my soap box now.

I didn't get Richard to email me back about them becoming an SI dealer. They might still be in negotiation. I am betting it's a bigger decision than I realize to take on another companies products.

Is there anyway Jason would be willing to chime in to confirm he will be reviewing the Black Diamond and roughly when in April he is scheduled to do so?
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post #132 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 08:17 AM
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I viewed the Black Diamond this week at EHX....IMPRESSIVE in a brightly lit room, to say the least. Not really enough time spent to judge the overall performance of the image due to "show constraints". Demo was Transformers on HD DVD displaying the "I need a credit card sequence" and the projector was the new Projection Design Cineo30.

Incredible presentation of the ability to watch a front projection system under daytime lighting conditions. The image was intensely bright, well saturated colors and contrast looked good (pretty much a bright sunshine outdoor scene), so critical evaluation of black level and shadow detail was not possible.

The "gear girl" who caught my attention from SI claims the product will be available in either fixed or motorized configurations. I will be surprised if the material will allow motorized screens due to the design of the surface, but I really don't think she was that well versed in the technical aspects of the product.

The projector was to die for. You realize what your are missing (RS1 owner on 122" 2.35 screen) when you see an image with the light output at this level, better than plasma.

I was on a short schedule and wish I could have spent more time at their demo as well as others. Perhaps others will be able to provide additional facts that were available from SI at the show.
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post #133 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 12:57 PM
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A bright pj in this situation can be misleading.

Since the black level is set by the environment and not the pj, on-screen CR increases directly with the pj brightness.

Noah
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post #134 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 01:45 PM
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I'd like to see how impressive it is with a projector the rest of us can afford.
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post #135 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanhdtv View Post

I viewed the Black Diamond this week at EHX....IMPRESSIVE in a brightly lit room, to say the least. Not really enough time spent to judge the overall performance of the image due to "show constraints". Demo was Transformers on HD DVD displaying the "I need a credit card sequence" and the projector was the new Projection Design Cineo30.

Incredible presentation of the ability to watch a front projection system under daytime lighting conditions. The image was intensely bright, well saturated colors and contrast looked good (pretty much a bright sunshine outdoor scene), so critical evaluation of black level and shadow detail was not possible.

The "gear girl" who caught my attention from SI claims the product will be available in either fixed or motorized configurations. I will be surprised if the material will allow motorized screens due to the design of the surface, but I really don't think she was that well versed in the technical aspects of the product.

The projector was to die for. You realize what your are missing (RS1 owner on 122" 2.35 screen) when you see an image with the light output at this level, better than plasma.

I was on a short schedule and wish I could have spent more time at their demo as well as others. Perhaps others will be able to provide additional facts that were available from SI at the show.

I think if you projected a 6500 lumens projector on ANY screen in a bright room, it would be watcheable. This test is of no value to me when it comes to evaluating the daylight viewing abilities of this screen, since I have not been able to find a decent 1080p projector in the under 15K price range that puts our more than 1600 raw lumens and I don't intend to spend more than 6K for a projector, anyways.

Someone at SI told me they had to somehow flatten the material to get it to work as an electric, and how that was why the electric screens would be not be out until months later.
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post #136 of 3676 Old 03-15-2008, 06:39 PM
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Yes, that projector is a beast!!! I want to know the performance of the screen with a more affordable 1080p projector, like the HC4900!

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

A bright pj in this situation can be misleading.

Since the black level is set by the environment and not the pj, on-screen CR increases directly with the pj brightness.

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post #137 of 3676 Old 03-18-2008, 08:18 PM
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Just so everyone knows, I e-mailed Screen Innovations asking about screen samples of the new Black Diamond screens. I received the following reply:

I am sorry but we are not giving samples. I understand if you don't want to wait, but it will be well worth it. No one will have the material till after our ship date of April the 18th. We will have a demo screen that will be sold for $199 if you would like to buy that. It is a 28 inch diagonal screen.

Thanks from SI Screens,
Shannon


Too bad. I guess I can understand why they wouldn't want to send out any samples prior to the screen's actual availability, but at the same time, it has already been "officially launched" at EHX, so I dunno.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share.

-Paul
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post #138 of 3676 Old 03-18-2008, 09:33 PM
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Thanks for sharing Paul. I'm not quite sure what that reply means. Is it saying they are not sending samples right now or never. I was very interested in this screen but without a sample to see in my own environment I will not dropping $2 - $3k. And, on principal, not $199 for the privledge of deciding whether to buy the screen. Hope I'm just mis-interpreting .

Mike
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post #139 of 3676 Old 03-19-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minawee View Post

We will have a demo screen that will be sold for $199 if you would like to buy that. It is a 28 inch diagonal screen.

Thanks from SI Screens,
Shannon[/i]

I would think the $199 would be refunded when you return the screen, no? Did they say when the demo screen would be available?
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post #140 of 3676 Old 03-19-2008, 06:56 PM
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I am interested in the Black Diamond, although my room will basically have full light control. I was planning on having a 2.35:1 CIH setup, and this might not need masking when 16:9 programs due to the black color. It may not be perfect without masking, but it will be interesting to see how well it works for this purpose.
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post #141 of 3676 Old 03-20-2008, 11:04 AM
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The black diamond screens come in two different gains, I believe .8 and 1.4. What would be the main determining factor for choosing which gain to purchase? Where the projector is placed? Dark Room vs light room?
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post #142 of 3676 Old 03-21-2008, 12:56 AM
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Is it acoustically transparent? Cheers
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post #143 of 3676 Old 03-21-2008, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by juzmister View Post

Is it acoustically transparent? Cheers

Nothing I have seen says that it is so I'm gonna say no its not.

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post #144 of 3676 Old 03-21-2008, 12:14 PM
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The SI web site describes the Black Diamond as "award winning" (in quotes). Does anyone know what awards it's won? I don't see them mentioned on the site, and I'm interested. Thanks.

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post #145 of 3676 Old 03-22-2008, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juzmister View Post

Is it acoustically transparent? Cheers

No, it is not. I e-mailed to check. If they had an acoustically transparent retractable Black Diamond, that would be my perfect screen. Hopefully, they'll work on that.
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post #146 of 3676 Old 03-22-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

I would think the $199 would be refunded when you return the screen, no? Did they say when the demo screen would be available?

To be honest, after I got that reply, I really didn't care. If I'm looking for a screen NOW, and as a company, my small request for a 6" x 6" sample cannot be accommodated, then forget about it. I hate it when companies recite rules and deadlines as bible when they are the ones who set them in the first place, and then "hide" behind them. You know what? How about thinking outside your little box and try to come up with some sort of arrangement to accommodate the customer - even if I'm just ONE customer. I can think of a number of different ways that a sample could've been arranged for me and still secure the "secrecy" of the product. I would have agreed to pretty much any sort of deposit and return with "keep your mouth shut" stipulations just to fit into my time table. And then after the "launch" of the product (April 18th), instead of me posting on here how I didn't like my dealings with Screen Innovations, I would've been writing a highly praising post about my experience (whether I ended up actually getting a screen from them or not). It's all about how you deal with the people: BEFORE, during and after.

Anyhow, I presumed that when she said,
"No one will have the material till after our ship date of April the 18th." in her reply, I gathered that was the earliest anyone could get any samples.

-Paul
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post #147 of 3676 Old 03-23-2008, 06:23 PM
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Paul,

Surely you see why a company that doesn't know you from Adam is hesitant to trust you! Are you willing to trust me with a crap load of your own money? That is essentially what the company would be doing if they permitted you to have a sample in advance of release. As far as you know I could be your competitor and you would be giving me a headstart producing a competing product or time to release terrible ratings in advance of your release date. They would rather loose the sale to a small number of people than take a risk on a release date that is coming up very soon. A botched product release can bankrupt a small company, they just can't risk that.

I would, however, be surprised if members of the press are being prevented from testing the screens. Unlike releasing to any random person, the press members are known entities and SI can screen to whom they are willing to gamble their product launch with.
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post #148 of 3676 Old 03-24-2008, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeckerHead View Post

Paul,

Surely you see why a company that doesn't know you from Adam is hesitant to trust you! Are you willing to trust me with a crap load of your own money? That is essentially what the company would be doing if they permitted you to have a sample in advance of release. As far as you know I could be your competitor and you would be giving me a headstart producing a competing product or time to release terrible ratings in advance of your release date. They would rather loose the sale to a small number of people than take a risk on a release date that is coming up very soon. A botched product release can bankrupt a small company, they just can't risk that.

I would, however, be surprised if members of the press are being prevented from testing the screens. Unlike releasing to any random person, the press members are known entities and SI can screen to whom they are willing to gamble their product launch with.


I'm getting my first viewing tomorrow @ 10 a.m. SI is doing a show and tell for the press tomorrow at their office and I was graciously invited (no I am not press just an HT enthusiast.) I'll report back to give you my honest feedback.
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post #149 of 3676 Old 03-24-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

I'm getting my first viewing tomorrow @ 10 a.m. SI is doing a show and tell for the press tomorrow at their office and I was graciously invited (no I am not press just an HT enthusiast.) I'll report back to give you my honest feedback.

Thanks, h00kemh0rns, I'm looking forward to reading your report.

I just hope this demo is not as "loaded" as the one in Minneapolis, where the screen was the smallest size they make, or the one at EHX, where the projector had 6500 lumens. I realize it's easier to travel with an 80" screen than a 110" screen, and I heard the EHX demo was a joint demo, but it doesn't help me determine whether the screen will work for me unless the lumens and screen size are reasonably in the ballpark of what I would be using.
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post #150 of 3676 Old 03-24-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Thanks, h00kemh0rns, I'm looking forward to reading your report.

I just hope this demo is not as "loaded" as the one in Minneapolis, where the screen was the smallest size they make, or the one at EHX, where the projector had 6500 lumens. I realize it's easier to travel with an 80" screen than a 110" screen, and I heard the EHX demo was a joint demo, but it doesn't help me determine whether the screen will work for me unless the lumens and screen size are reasonably in the ballpark of what I would be using.

The screen which has been traveling around is 92" and will be the same screen I'll be viewing/comparing against. As far as EHX I had mentioned one of the complaints on here was that the projector used was not in the avg price field. Ryan was adament that the projector used was only a 1000 lumen one. I'll press him more for info or how someone could mistake the Proj.Design Cineo30 as being used.

I agree, this will not be a huge leap if the screen can't perform with typical equipment that the majority of us own (anything from $1500 - $5000.) Sad that I can't afford a $35k projector...would be nice b/c then I'm sure I'd have about $100k in additional equipment
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