Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 06:16 AM
 
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[quote=Kevin 3000;19695631]You also have to consider - tell your installer - what PJ is being used with the 1.4 or 0.8. I woyld advise for a PJ with around 1000 lumens new Lamp get the 1.4 otherwise the 0.8 will soon look dim as the lamp ages.

Ya thats a very good point that i forgot to add
It all depends on your ansi lumens
SI has a calculator that will figure out what is better for you based on your ansi lumens and projected light in the room

What projector are you going with?
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post #1592 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

There is a lot of light in your picture. That is for sure. On the other hand, that image looks washed out. It is watchable, which is an achievement with that amount of light.
I don't think the goal should be just to have a "watchable" image.
I know that you can close those drapes and then image will improve substantially. I guess I am just trying to say that I am puzzled about what your picture is trying to show.


Responding to this link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19677502 with the worst i could show off my screen but still watchable, i usually watch sports in that light and general TV `full screen so brighter images` Movies get the blackout treatment
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post #1593 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 06:43 AM
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With full black out treatment you're better off with any number of screens over the BD.
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post #1594 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

With full black out treatment you're better off with any number of screens over the BD.

Not always.

If your room is properly treated with non-reflective black velvet you are right - a white screen is the way to go. But, if you have a "normal" room with white ceilings and lighter colored walls, the BD can help by reducing the washout that reflected light can produce, even in an otherwise pitch black room. Like most compromises, this comes at some cost.

Affable Nitwit
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post #1595 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

With full black out treatment you're better off with any number of screens over the BD.

Thats true if you want to sit in a black hole watching sports etc hence my choice of screen drapes open watchable daylight viewing, been there tried matt white 1.0 gain - Greywolf 1.8 gain now this BD 1.4 suits my needs.
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post #1596 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 07:30 AM
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I will be going with the 9700; however, even if I go with a brighter projector, as the lamp fades, I still want a watchable picture. With the 1.4, I would assume I could run the PJ at a more conservative mode and prolong the bulb life, no?

I do have light coming in from side windows that I can block out with plantation shutters, but there is still some light. So I am going with the 1.4.

I also think a lot of other screens would work in my situation, but I'm staying on the safe side with the BD. Plus the price is reasonable on the BD and I'm supporting a local company (Austin, TX). I actually went to their showroom/factory and toured the place. Blake was very helpful.

Now a decision on size. 12' viewing distance. Thinking 100". Maybe 106"?
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post #1597 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 07:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shellbmb View Post

I will be going with the 9700; however, even if I go with a brighter projector, as the lamp fades, I still want a watchable picture. With the 1.4, I would assume I could run the PJ at a more conservative mode and prolong the bulb life, no?

I do have light coming in from side windows that I can block out with plantation shutters, but there is still some light. So I am going with the 1.4.

I also think a lot of other screens would work in my situation, but I'm staying on the safe side with the BD. Plus the price is reasonable on the BD and I'm supporting a local company (Austin, TX). I actually went to their showroom/factory and toured the place. Blake was very helpful.

Now a decision on size. 12' viewing distance. Thinking 100". Maybe 106"?

If you are concerned about bulb life then 1.4 is your way to go...
12 feet viewing distance is that your sitting distance aswell?
100 inch is the biggest but if it was me i would do 90 inch...

Thumbs up to you for supportting your Local Company....thats awesome...

wish more people would support there local dealers instead of just saving a buck, then coming on these forums and asking dumb questions that they clearly would have had answered if they went thru there local dealer and not a internet order house that doesnt have any technical info.......
thats my rant of the day....lol

Thats really cool that you had a tour of the SI facility...
thats what i like about SI they are very Consumer Friendly when it comes to customers....
And there customer service is A1....
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post #1598 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraisa View Post

K this is how i gage it,....
if its in a room like sparks lots of windows and uncontrolled Light
Go 1.4 gain

If its controlled man made light ie Pot lights
Go .8 gain...

If I was to put a screen upstairs in my Office that has alot of light during the day definetly would go 1.4 gain...

I believe it's just the reverse.

The darker substrate of the .8 version is precisely to combat more extreme lighting scenarios. That's the whole point of using such an incredibly dark substrate combined with a very directional screen optical coating. That's what is going to absorb heavy room light and keep those shadow areas darker, to maintain contrast in brighter rooms.

The best combination for fighting serious ambient light is a bright projector projecting against a dark screen like the BD .8 version.

The 1.4 version will provide a brighter picture but it doesn't do nearly as well at rejecting ambient light and maintaining deeper black levels. It starts with a brighter screen surface to begin with and is a significantly higher gain, so it's already raised the black levels and is going to reflect and raise whatever ambient light hits it more than the .8. Frankly, when I saw the 1.4 gain screen in action with some ambient light I thought "This performance isn't particularly better in ambient light than lots of other such screens..I would not really like to watch images this washed out."

Whereas the .8 version can be seriously impressive in some ambient light.
I haven't seen anything better for maintaining contrast in challenging conditions, personally. But for the very reasons it does so, it takes a brighter projected image to light up that screen.

The BD .8 screen is more extreme in it's blackness for a reason; it's for more extreme ambient light conditions. It's great there are companies like Black Diamond making these screens as options for us.
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post #1599 of 3689 Old 12-23-2010, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I believe it's just the reverse.

The darker substrate of the .8 version is precisely to combat more extreme lighting scenarios. That's the whole point of using such an incredibly dark substrate combined with a very directional screen optical coating. That's what is going to absorb heavy room light and keep those shadow areas darker, to maintain contrast in brighter rooms.

The best combination for fighting serious ambient light is a bright projector projecting against a dark screen like the BD .8 version.

The 1.4 version will provide a brighter picture but it doesn't do nearly as well at rejecting ambient light and maintaining deeper black levels. It starts with a brighter screen surface to begin with and is a significantly higher gain, so it's already raised the black levels and is going to reflect and raise whatever ambient light hits it more than the .8. Frankly, when I saw the 1.4 gain screen in action with some ambient light I thought "This performance isn't particularly better in ambient light than lots of other such screens..I would not really like to watch images this washed out."

Whereas the .8 version can be seriously impressive in some ambient light.
I haven't seen anything better for maintaining contrast in challenging conditions, personally. But for the very reasons it does so, it takes a brighter projected image to light up that screen.

The BD .8 screen is more extreme in it's blackness for a reason; it's for more extreme ambient light conditions. It's great there are companies like Black Diamond making these screens as options for us.

Its because of companies like SI that people can get back into the 2 pc projection world and away from limited flat panel.....

When people see the BD in action alot of people are shocked that the image is coming from a Projector....
I remember doing a demo once and beside us was a the sharp Aquos and the colours on the BD where killing that lcd flat panel ....
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post #1600 of 3689 Old 12-26-2010, 06:31 AM
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JVC RS10 600 Hour Lamp around 500 Lumens 15ft Throw
BDII 1.4 screen 110"
2x20 watt Halogen Lamps Daylight Test

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post #1601 of 3689 Old 12-26-2010, 06:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post
JVC RS10 600 Hour Lamp around 500 Lumens 15ft Throw
BDII 1.4 screen 110"
2x20 watt Halogen Lamps Daylight Test

Awesome...
But i would be dusting over by the ps3....lol
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post #1602 of 3689 Old 12-26-2010, 11:06 AM
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2- little 20 watt spots illuminating two small areas? Is this something to be touting...or stifling a chuckle over?

Tell ya what, move those little guys out about 6'...level to the center of the Screen, turn them both into the Screen and let 'em shine. They are not big lights....certainly not crazy bright either, so there should be no real risk involved. Why, I'd even suggest you turn every other light off while doing so. Do likewise from 4' to each side of the Screen and 6' out. Show us something to contemplate.

Guys, I'm really on "all our sides" when it comes to getting decent ambient light performance out amongst the Masses, no matter what the price point. Simply put, if it's gonna be stated that such performance can come with either a high or low price tag, the real choice/s need to be shown in/under circumstances that can/should be construed as representing real world situations....not in contrived or inappropriate (ie: silly) examples.

Doing so in the latter only makes it all seem a little bit senseless and more than a bit self-defeating when playing to a critical crowd such as is the reading Membership on this Forum. I can't say it any plainer than that. Exhibit your strong points in a strong, unmistakable manner.

(In truth, and with the JVC RS10, I'd think that showing a scene with lot's of Black content would have performed nicely even with the daylight coming in from the Window on the right.)

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #1603 of 3689 Old 12-26-2010, 01:35 PM
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Those 20 watt lamps are Halogen lamps bright little suckers and are both angled towards the screens center + the daylight factor. I had the lamps further out but wanted to show the screens properties. Will post some more shots soon.

What can you show in comparison? I am only interested in the best performing options.

I only have 500 lumens on tap no light canon here.
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post #1604 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

No comparisons MississippiMan?

Just Googled the lumen output for a 20 watt Halogen around 600 Lumens about the same as an unshaded incandecent 60w bulb, so just imagine the devastating washout this would cause on other screens unless MississippiMan knows of an alternative?

I'd be quick to venture to say you must have missed the examples shown on this thread in the "linked to" post a short while back....but we both know better....yes?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post19612927

Of course I have more, (..a great many...) and all under more lighting duress than has ever been shown here.
But this isn't about promoting one wholly different Genre against another, but rather validating "performance vs cost" claims for a specific Mfg Screen.

You don't want a Screen Shot contest here......that would be unproductive....if not indeed self-defeating. We went over that a short while back when you posted a Dark Room shot of a shot I had taken in significant ambient light. I've spent years making sure I could justify every screen shot I post....that means I do not tip the scales in favor of producing only eye candy. But when I do, it's as sweet a treat as it can be. I'm not alone in that respect...it's a pretty easy thing to accomplish these days under the right circumstances.

(...btw, those are 2- "500 watt" Globe assemblies 8' away and on level with the Top of the "135" diagonal" SF Screen seen in the link. .......and against 20 watt halogens? Not really a fair comparison. Those shots are intended to impress not for sheer image quality, but to show considerable ability to offset the adverse effects of ambient light. In the case shown it's taken to ridiculous extremes because that's what people want to seen done. Give 'em what they want....they'll still want more. )

The truth is, combating the effects of ambient light is the goal. "Combat" as in "to fight". No where has it ever been stated "sensibly" that any normal, residential Screen application can "defeat' the effects. Nope...we all can only "mitigate" the loss of Contrast, by trying to "minimize" the loss through effect.

We do so using Non Reflectrive or Highly Reflective Dark Screens w/High lumen PJs. Variances on that theme work only as well as respective to the balance acquired between Screen/PJ/Lighting.

While there is no Magic Bullet, some ammunition does have more effect than others. Some "Hi-Tech Loads" cost quite a bit, while others fall squarely in the "Cap & Ball" category. And sometimes, a 50 Caliber "Ball" can do more "dirty work" than a Nylon Capped Hollow Point.

But all of it depends upon how well one can use the advantage of a dark surface's properties to staunch the effect that bright light has on dark areas.. For eons we have been trying to bring light into all our darkest corners....now we are regressing. We want Blacker Blacks.

The question remains....can they be found...and had, for something less than the price of a used car? Or...if that is the price....is it giving one the value expected of it?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #1605 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 03:36 AM
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So MississippiMan no alternatives to improve my setup with my projector? Those samples you posted will not help my room as the light sources are a long way from the screen + shaded and there is no daylight in the rooms.

Below are examples of almost like for like 1000 watts shaded light 8` from screen.
4x40 watt halogens unshaded 9` from screen + 2x20 watt halogens directed at screen = 600 watts total room

Anyhow keep up the goodwork you may stumble on that magic mix 1 day but until that day we are stuck with specialist screens.



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post #1606 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 09:50 AM
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Ahem. I see 4 "On" lights currently pointed "down & slightly away from" the screen, another one pointing Down . I'll give you this...point them all directly down. Ditch the Little Spot lamps. Try that. Afterward, reset the lights like I know you like to have them, so that they "don't" work against you. Turn 'em all on. Take images under "full" and "50%" illumination. Let us note the improvement just a little bit of muting and directionality on the lighting can make.

Really, one need only look at your room at a glance to know that you know what helps a situation...and what can hurt. Can you really state you think my expounding on this dedicated Thread about "another option" would be welcome, proper, or even advisable?* Lets be real...and offer up real life questions and answers concerning "these Screens" . Most such Threads usually follow that route.

Ol Man Sol....he's tough.

The Sunlight is a natural source of light, full spectrum, and more a "real life" example of a major reason people might consider such Screens as being a real advantage. Even then, practical common sense is required as far as indirect/directed lighting circumstances, or the room/PJ/Screen must be absolutely optimized together. Extremely dark Gray surfaces being hit with 3k+ Lumens is one route...tried and true. Who would have thought you'd see a 3000 lumen 1080p DLP @ $1595.00. (EH-1020) Although some might say "Why did you say THAT?", if I had such a PJ, I'd intuitively know that a BD-I .9 screen would work splendidly with it, and show images of excellent quality in more adverse lighting than you've cared to show so far. That screen, and the older Sony ChromaVu based their advantage as much on "darkness" as on anything. The 1.4 BD is very much akin to other "dark yet reflective" applications. Up to a point, if a PJ such as the EH1020 was sold as a bundle with a BD .9'er, I'd bet there would be few dissatisfied Customers. With a 1.4 version, some thought as to Projector placement would be necessary, but the end result on Low Lamp would be a real "Ambient Light Lion Tamer".

I know fraisa can relate. He's expressed the importance of fitting the Screen and Projector in carefully with the needs of both the Room and the Customer. He wants to see the Room before a recommendation is given. Then with him knowing what to do out of hand in any given situation, that is what really is helpful. No hemming, hawing...hopeful guesses. Seeing what is needed and expected, one gives them the real skinny, and show 'em what will work to fulfill such promises. If they waffle on equipment or room design.....then all they need to know that choices made that fall somewhere below the suggested Screen/ PJ/Lighting application in effectiveness, will resort to having compromises settle in.

Faced with that, I've seen more Wives opt for 4" Spot Cans and Perimeter Lighting schemes and Husbands who DID NOT want any "I told you so's" coming back to haunt them, so they do what is best. Not always though. That's why I have Gray hair. .

Moving on, I also see two very highly directed Spot Lamps effectively destroying everything on screen within their cone of influence. (...thank the Higher Spirits those "Rectangles" blocked a good portion of what was headed that way!) That's expected....for that is not real life.

BTW...very wise not to have used those spots @ 8' from and even angled at a goodly surface of the Screen...that's a big challenge...and frankly not a plausible scenario nor within normal performance expectations.

I suppose that what is happening here is that I'm asking a few questions and requesting a few examples from a member who has a particular Screen, and who is proud enough to want to show & tell it. Nothing new in that..we all like to do so.

Yes, I've had a few years jump on you Guys having to explain and justify performance claims along the same lines as the SI-BD product line. You get your share of Believers / advocates...and your share of Naysayers as well. The latter always seem to be a lot fewer in number but all the more outspoken for that reason.

I'm not gonna bring down that hard rain on anyone's head. I appreciate this Screen for what it is...does...and what it represents. For those needing such a Screen and who can consider the purchase, properly set up an accommodated for, it will over achieve most expectations.

The real question remains, just how good can the image quality remain at specific levels of "Normal" lighting. Once that is truly settled, and the benchmark established, who then can have any arguments or dismissals? After all that hard work come the real fun...for then comes the time to fool around playing with the "abnormal" instances.

Since I'm considered decidedly "abnormal" by some, I'll be residing with my own miscreant Screen endeavors while waiting for your photo- illustrated response. Honestly...I hope you do your best and wow 'em all. Me as well. Just do them right.



* If you ever are serious about trying out something different, you know what Forum I normally reside in.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #1607 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 10:09 AM
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Now you REALLY don't think the Lighting you showed was in any manner equal to the twin fixtures in the Photo of mine you re-posted?
Those Globes were Venticular Reflective, and essential sent light out in all directions....including sideways. Just so you know...mind you.

...btw, I did promise fraisa I wouldn't post any more supposedly "competitive" shots. I'll stress again, I'm not here for that. I'm here because I know the difference in what is, what might be, and what some might have others think.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #1608 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

People can see for themselves and make their own minds up ...........

What I see are two washed out pictures, one barely watchable, the other unacceptable.

Karl S.
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post #1609 of 3689 Old 12-27-2010, 11:32 AM
 
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With all this indepth talk going back and forth
I am really Glad i posted a pic of the Hockey Fan in the Helmet....lol
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post #1610 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 02:21 AM
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Has the .8 version changed since projectorcentral did there review on it?
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post #1611 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screen Innovatio View Post
Kevin,

If you move your lights forward a bit, you could leave them on all the time.

Blake
They are facing straight down the bulbs proturde out of the holders a bit so unshaded and i do leave them on sometimes as you see them. If i took a pic around the other side they are just as bright 9ft from screen.
5x40 watt halogens when bulbs not blown.
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post #1612 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 08:11 AM
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Removed out of consideration of circumstances.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #1613 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 09:48 AM
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This video post on the site of the official italian BD2 import seller also make the screen look very crap with the lights on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-U-4...layer_embedded
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post #1614 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

That image is clearly manipulated. There is no color, no depth, and the overall contrast has been reduced intentionally, overall brightness bumped up to compensate...the whole thing smacks of a clear attempt to mislead the viewer. Then there is the fact it just looks terrible to start with.

I've tried hard to suggest some screen shot pointers that would help to validate the BD's performance claims, and serve to eliminate the contrary comments that this thread was piling up against it. But you seem to not only want to ignore that effort, your really doing all that much more to perpetrate the same issues that led others to call BS on previous Photos.

Now the image above. Continue on in this manner and you'll essentially destroy what credibility the BD screen has to offer.

Moderators please delete this message as it refers to my pic which is actually unfounded and as its been deleted irrelevant now.??
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post #1615 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 12:17 PM
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I think you've made it quite clear that you simply do not like the Black Diamond screen, and you are of course perfectly entitled to hate if you so choose, but you're getting very close to the line when you accuse people of tampering with their photos. Let's just agree that you don't like what you see and some others do.

Now, let's get back to the BD related discussions.

"Suddenly the thought struck me, my floor is someone elses ceiling" - Nils Ferlin
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post #1616 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 02:19 PM
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JVC RS10 600 Hoursish Lamp
BDII 1.4 Screen TEST
4x40 watt Halogens Un-shaded Bulbs protrude from Eyeball holders about 4mm pointing straight down - 9ft from screen really bright conditions.

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post #1617 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin 3000 View Post

JVC RS10 600 Hoursish Lamp
BDII 1.4 Screen TEST
4x40 watt Halogens Un-shaded Bulbs protrude from Eyeball holders about 4mm pointing straight down - 9ft from screen really bright conditions.


What are you trying to demonstrate with this and the Sin City picture? Because both of them are so washed out, most people would consider them to be unwatchable.

Karl S.
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post #1618 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by karlsch View Post

What are you trying to demonstrate with this and the Sin City picture? Because both of them are so washed out, most people would consider them to be unwatchable.

LOL....Looks very watchable here hard to capture with those lights in the lens but how else can i prove they are on and bright at the same time as the screen. All things considered its amazing its not a total washout.

Some may find it useful.
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post #1619 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 05:19 PM
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Kevin, why did you pick the 1.4 over the .8??
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post #1620 of 3689 Old 12-28-2010, 05:20 PM
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Has the .8 version changed since projectorcentral did there review on it?

Can anyone answer this please? I'm bought to splurge a little on a screen and I need the details!
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