Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:17 AM
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h00kemh0rns: Thanks for the masking answer. It sounds really promising!

Could you please answer some more questions?

1) "BD flat out kicked the matte white screen's (_|_) in every way. Contrast (deeper blacks), whites, light, dark, didn't matter"

Please watch carefully the SI demo video (http://www.siscreens.com/videos/). Right before the middle
of the video you can see a (paused) hand projected on a conventional screen. The right wall and the ceiling of the room are visible as
they are lit by the reflection of the screen. Then the conventional screen is lifted up to reveal the BD.
What is really amazing is that the reflection of the screen completely disappears and we are not able to see the wall and ceiling any
more. (ie we are left in a totally black room). On the other hand -and this is bad- it's clearly visible that brightness is lost. Just look
carefully while the screen rolls up and compare the before and after (whites look more than grey).
Please comment on that. Were you able to make this kind of comparison? Did you notice a loss in brightness? The HD100 quite dim on
large screens already on its own (I plan to use the biggest possible) and this would be the most important decision factor for me.

2) From what I understand, this material is completely different to anything we have ever seen. To start with, 20mm thinness is exotic! Did
they mention how it gets shipped if you want to purchase only the material? Can it be rolled? Or is it shipped (due to limitation of the
fabric) in a frame? Also, did they mention if the material would work on a curved frame?

3) As Mikenificent1 asks, did you look for any hot spots? Was the sharpness even?


Thanks!
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post #182 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:28 AM
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When viewing in a dark room, were there any problems with crushed shadow detail? That would be one of my concerns about a black screen.

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post #183 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeckerHead View Post

Is this number correct? That is more than 3/4 inch!

I was wondering the same thing. Did you mean 2.0 mm thick? That would seem more reasonable.
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post #184 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panosp View Post

Please watch carefully the SI demo video (http://www.siscreens.com/videos/). Right before the middle
of the video you can see a (paused) hand projected on a conventional screen. The right wall and the ceiling of the room are visible as
they are lit by the reflection of the screen. Then the conventional screen is lifted up to reveal the BD.
What is really amazing is that the reflection of the screen completely disappears and we are not able to see the wall and ceiling any
more. (ie we are left in a totally black room). On the other hand -and this is bad- it's clearly visible that brightness is lost. Just look
carefully while the screen rolls up and compare the before and after (whites look more than grey).
Please comment on that. Were you able to make this kind of comparison? Did you notice a loss in brightness? The HD100 quite dim on
large screens already on its own (I plan to use the biggest possible) and this would be the most important decision factor for me.

2) From what I understand, this material is completely different to anything we have ever seen. To start with, 20mm thinness is exotic! Did
they mention how it gets shipped if you want to purchase only the material? Can it be rolled? Or is it shipped (due to limitation of the
fabric) in a frame? Also, did they mention if the material would work on a curved frame?

3) As Mikenificent1 asks, did you look for any hot spots? Was the sharpness even?


Thanks!

I haven't read this whole thread but have read it from the review done by hookemhorns on and also viewed the web page and the video you mentioned above.

I didn't see in the review where the projector was calibrated to one sample or the other. from the experimenting we have done over in the DIY screen forum I can say it's very hard to compare a white screen to a gray screen especially when the gray is a very dark gray that has angular gain properties. Reason being white to black calibration on the two samples will be far apart. With ambient light present a neutral gray screen even without the angular gain will normally produce higher levels of perceived CR and the reason I say perceived is because we are not just dealing with the projector, room and screen but also the iris in our eyes compensating for a change in light level.

In the video as panosp points out the wider dispersive white screen is throwing light to all corners of the room not just the viewer. Of course they have white walls that causes a secondary reflection back to the screen in the form of ambient combine the fact the projector was calibrated to the darker sample most likely and then you get secondary ambient coming onto the screen it's a very washed out image. And if by magic when the screen rolls up the perceived and real CR blooms thru. The music is just icing on the cake.

Screens are passive devices as I'm sure you have heard many times before, our eyes are not they adjust. I wont say this is not an excellent screen for ambient light viewing because I'm sure it is, but a fairer test would have been to compare it with a 1.1 gray screen approximately the same shade of gray and in a room where the walls and ceiling didn't add unduly by being white and also very close to the screen. lastly to be fair gray scale should be calibrated for both samples and shown one at a time. I have projected bright true white off of a coal black screen and had the full range of calibration under super bright indoor lighting. That's linked in one of the threads below in my signature if anyone wants to read it. It does require lumens and lots of them though.

No magic with this screen IMHO just lumens, FL's and gain and some simple rules of physics.

I'm still contemplating the idea they have for a special screen surface just for HD hmmmm


Bud

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post #185 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:19 PM
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[quote=Mikenificent1;13475982]
Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

1) It was mounted on a rack as though it was on the ceiling (if that makes sense.)



4) BD flat out kicked the matte white screen's (_|_) in every way. Contrast (deeper blacks), whites, light, dark, didn't matter.

No mention if you looked for hot spots, sheen/texture, or even sharpness. There is no way the BD could have been sharper than a matte white screen, so I doubt "in every way". I guess I'll have to wait to see it for myself Hopefully BestBuy gets it soon.


Sorry alot of this stuff stayed in my head and didn't make it in the post...

Hot spots - none seen by anyone in the room and we looked at every feasible angle.

Texture - It is smooth with no apparent flecks (as used by some manufacturers to boost brightness)

Sharpness - yes it was sharper IMHO. Take it for what its worth...I saw the comparison and feel it was sharper. I wasn't the only one...

Like I said...the video doesn't do it justice. I understand being skeptical but sometimes there are the real deals out there...this is one of 'em guys.
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post #186 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post

Many thanks for your long post--one question: Is SI in Austin a walk-in-and-look shop or by-invitation-only?

SI is a walk in shop however the BD demo is a traveling unit. I don't know if it's there now or off at another trade show. Best to call.
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post #187 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeckerHead View Post

Is this number correct? That is more than 3/4 inch!

20 mm thick was the quote I got from the Tech Officer.
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post #188 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panosp View Post

h00kemh0rns: Thanks for the masking answer. It sounds really promising!

Could you please answer some more questions?

1) "BD flat out kicked the matte white screen's (_|_) in every way. Contrast (deeper blacks), whites, light, dark, didn't matter"

Please watch carefully the SI demo video (http://www.siscreens.com/videos/). Right before the middle
of the video you can see a (paused) hand projected on a conventional screen. The right wall and the ceiling of the room are visible as
they are lit by the reflection of the screen. Then the conventional screen is lifted up to reveal the BD.
What is really amazing is that the reflection of the screen completely disappears and we are not able to see the wall and ceiling any
more. (ie we are left in a totally black room). On the other hand -and this is bad- it's clearly visible that brightness is lost. Just look
carefully while the screen rolls up and compare the before and after (whites look more than grey).
Please comment on that. Were you able to make this kind of comparison? Did you notice a loss in brightness? The HD100 quite dim on
large screens already on its own (I plan to use the biggest possible) and this would be the most important decision factor for me.

2) From what I understand, this material is completely different to anything we have ever seen. To start with, 20mm thinness is exotic! Did
they mention how it gets shipped if you want to purchase only the material? Can it be rolled? Or is it shipped (due to limitation of the
fabric) in a frame? Also, did they mention if the material would work on a curved frame?

3) As Mikenificent1 asks, did you look for any hot spots? Was the sharpness even?


Thanks!

1) Brightness level did not drop off in fact the inverse occured. What you're seeing is the dispersion (sp?) of light. It's not being scattered to the floor, walls, or ceiling rather concentrated back out.

2) They will be able to ship it rolled. As far as a curved frame I can't comment on this....read into that however you want.

3) No hotspots...sharpness dead on!
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post #189 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLBoy View Post

I was wondering the same thing. Did you mean 2.0 mm thick? That would seem more reasonable.

Not a typo 20 mm. I asked the same thing especially when trying to get the T mounting system to work. Apparently the thicker the fabric the easier it is to get a flat/straight install (so long as you follow their install process.)
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post #190 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 02:55 PM
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Black Diamond vs High Power?
The price sure puts them in different weight category, but I'm still curious.
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post #191 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 03:08 PM
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h00kemh0rns: I appreciate your effort in answering all my questions. Thanks!

Before I discovered the BD I was looking for a curved 2.35:1 screen with 4-way masking; either commercial or DIY. My walls have a light color and there is no way I can't paint them to anything dark. What I read is extremely promising. If it actually works it will both eliminate the need of masking and the change of color. It seems like a real innovation. I'll be monitoring this thread and wait for any possible reviews in the next days.
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post #192 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 05:30 PM
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Hey Hookem,

Do you know when your screen will arrive? Were you able to get any discount, or did you have to pay MSRP?

Thanks for all the info you have provided thus far, I will most likely put an order myself at my local authorized dealer.
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post #193 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcleo19 View Post

Hey Hookem,

Do you know when your screen will arrive? Were you able to get any discount, or did you have to pay MSRP?

Thanks for all the info you have provided thus far, I will most likely put an order myself at my local authorized dealer.

Someone mentioned an online vendor that sells the screens. It's in this thread. I priced out a few screens at their website and there was a very respectable discount. Shipping was reasonable as well, I think $83 for the largest one.
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post #194 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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h00kemh0rns,

I just wanted to say thank you very much for your review! I know that many of us here have been anxious about this screen for a long time and we greatly appreciate you stoking the fires. I can tell there's going to be a lot of sleepless nights waiting for the release (personally for the retractable model!)

Respectfully,
Andrew

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post #195 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 07:33 PM
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yes thank you. im interested in this screen as well and reviews have me stoked. i believe jason said avs will try and get one to review and depending on that they will carry it. so maybe we could get a powerbuy going if its possible
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post #196 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcleo19 View Post

Hey Hookem,

Do you know when your screen will arrive? Were you able to get any discount, or did you have to pay MSRP?

Thanks for all the info you have provided thus far, I will most likely put an order myself at my local authorized dealer.

I was told that ship date would be 4/15 - 4/18...so I would have it a couple days later since I'm about a stones throw away.

Now as far as what I ended up paying is based on who I work for. We get a discount from SI but it wasn't enough for me to go blindly into buying a BD. The price difference, even after the discount, was several hundred dollars difference in what I was looking at getting. So, I was patiently waiting for this demo to convince me the extra money was worth it. Because trust me I could have invested that extra money into some other component/furniture in my HT build out.

After the two hour demo my eyes said "hell yeah"... That's all it came down to. You can be as anal as you want to be with the specs but ultimately its what your eyes tell you and mine said "buy, buy, oh and buy!" If SI was a publicly traded company I would say buy their stock.
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post #197 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

If SI was a publicly traded company I would say buy their stock.

Too funny, I checked just that this morning.
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post #198 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:14 PM
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[quote=h00kemh0rns;13479869]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post



Sorry alot of this stuff stayed in my head and didn't make it in the post...

Hot spots - none seen by anyone in the room and we looked at every feasible angle.

Texture - It is smooth with no apparent flecks (as used by some manufacturers to boost brightness)

Sharpness - yes it was sharper IMHO. Take it for what its worth...I saw the comparison and feel it was sharper. I wasn't the only one...

Like I said...the video doesn't do it justice. I understand being skeptical but sometimes there are the real deals out there...this is one of 'em guys.

now THAT'S impressive! thanks so much for the info!
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post #199 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

I was told that ship date would be 4/15 - 4/18...so I would have it a couple days later since I'm about a stones throw away.

Now as far as what I ended up paying is based on who I work for. We get a discount from SI but it wasn't enough for me to go blindly into buying a BD. The price difference, even after the discount, was several hundred dollars difference in what I was looking at getting. So, I was patiently waiting for this demo to convince me the extra money was worth it. Because trust me I could have invested that extra money into some other component/furniture in my HT build out.

After the two hour demo my eyes said "hell yeah"... That's all it came down to. You can be as anal as you want to be with the specs but ultimately its what your eyes tell you and mine said "buy, buy, oh and buy!" If SI was a publicly traded company I would say buy their stock.

h00kemh0rns, I'm curious...

Are you in the video business and have first-hand experience with a variety of projectors and screens?

Can you tell me why forum members are still posting to the other screen threads?
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post #200 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

h00kemh0rns, I'm curious...

Are you in the video business and have first-hand experience with a variety of projectors and screens?

No I am not in the business I am simply a consumer and HT enthusiast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Can you tell me why forum members are still posting to the other screen threads?

Why would I know this?
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post #201 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 10:08 PM
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Hi Hookem,

Thank you so much for your interesting and informative posts. I'm also looking for a screen, but I have maybe two or three months before I have to have one. I'm interested in this one, but the size limitations are a bit frustrating. I wanted to go bigger than their "maximum one-piece" size limit.

I was wondering, and maybe you asked.... are they able to produce a larger screen by splicing two pieces of fabric together? At 20 MM thick, I can imagine this would be an exercise. I would only do this if the splice was nearly invisible when not being projected on, and totally transparent when the projector was on.

Any ideas? Did you ask about this?

I'm sure there are many others here who would like to go larger, so I can only guess there would be a large market if it were well-done.

Thanks! This is a very intriguing product. And I was all set to go with a Carada BW...

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post #202 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

Someone mentioned an online vendor that sells the screens. It's in this thread. I priced out a few screens at their website and there was a very respectable discount. Shipping was resonable as well, I think $83 for the largest one.

Ah yes, that was me. Projectus is a local SI dealer and they are selling the BD on their website, projectorzone.com. I am pretty much sold and now just trying to decide what credit card to put is on.
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post #203 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG316 View Post

Hi Hookem,

Thank you so much for your interesting and informative posts. I'm also looking for a screen, but I have maybe two or three months before I have to have one. I'm interested in this one, but the size limitations are a bit frustrating. I wanted to go bigger than their "maximum one-piece" size limit.

I was wondering, and maybe you asked.... are they able to produce a larger screen by splicing two pieces of fabric together? At 20 MM thick, I can imagine this would be an exercise. I would only do this if the splice was nearly invisible when not being projected on, and totally transparent when the projector was on.

Any ideas? Did you ask about this?

I'm sure there are many others here who would like to go larger, so I can only guess there would be a large market if it were well-done.

Thanks! This is a very intriguing product. And I was all set to go with a Carada BW...

I asked about this. Larger screens with seams are something SI plans to do later on and they plan to do it for commercial customers who want really large screens, figuring it's not practical to have a seam for home theater use for just a bit more size. I think it's worth considering buying one with a seam. One person has posted in the screen forum that he doesn't notice the seam in his 159" High Power screen. Plus, SI admitted that the seam would be less obvious due to it being black. So, I'd say talk to SI about it if you want considerably larger than 113" 16X9 or 142" 2.35:1, and you don't mind the extra cost, and you don't mind waiting longer if SI does not want to make it right away, but I think the smaller the bump up in size you want over the maximum seamless size, the less worthwhile it is to do.
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post #204 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG316 View Post


Thanks! This is a very intriguing product. And I was all set to go with a Carada BW...

I was in the same exact position as you were...and then I discovered Black Diamond! I was able to justify the extra cost to my wife as well as she hates watching TV in pitch black.
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post #205 of 3727 Old 03-26-2008, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

No I am not in the business I am simply a consumer and HT enthusiast.

It was because you said you get a discount because of who you work for that I thought maybe you were in the business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by h00kemh0rns View Post

Why would I know this?

It was just meant to be humorous, that here this great screen has come out and there's like three new threads in the last two days asking which screen should the OP get.
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post #206 of 3727 Old 03-27-2008, 05:50 AM
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Some thoughts...

Curious, will this screen profoundly impact the race for higher contrast/brighter lumen projectors, making these high spec (and more costly) PJ's less critical?

Also curious whether those poor souls who see DLP rainbows might fare better with this technology (or worse) i doubt that answer is out yet, just ruminating...

And lastly, a 20mm sheet rolled up in a motorized drop screen would be massive. Imagine an average thickness (10mm) area-rug with the general dimensions of a 110" diagonal screen, rolled-up. Now double that! I'm guessing you'd have a roll easily 10 inches in diameter! How's that gonna work?
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post #207 of 3727 Old 03-27-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcleo19 View Post

Ah yes, that was me. Projectus is a local SI dealer and they are selling the BD on their website, projectorzone.com. I am pretty much sold and now just trying to decide what credit card to put is on.

I checked out both websites (Projectus & projectorzone) and I didn't see any Screen Innovations screens. Did SI take it away from them?
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post #208 of 3727 Old 03-27-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speciman View Post

I checked out both websites (Projectus & projectorzone) and I didn't see any Screen Innovations screens. Did SI take it away from them?

Holy crap! Ya, I don't know what happened. I will drop them a line to find out.
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post #209 of 3727 Old 03-27-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speciman View Post

I checked out both websites (Projectus & projectorzone) and I didn't see any Screen Innovations screens. Did SI take it away from them?

No. I just called. They told me that they were asked to take it off their website but if you call you can still get a price quote emailed to you and no they won't get it any earlier than mid-April either.
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post #210 of 3727 Old 03-27-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngarn View Post

No. I just called. They told me that they were asked to take it off their website but if you call you can still get a price quote emailed to you and no they won't get it any earlier than mid-April either.

I'm glad it was up, however briefly, because we were able to find out that the discounts on these screens will take a big bite out of the price.
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Projection Screens , Pure Acoustics Supernova C 250 Watt Center Speaker , Speaker Systems , Screen Innovations

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