Black Diamond from Screen Innovations? - Page 90 - AVS Forum
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post #2671 of 3726 Old 08-31-2011, 09:57 AM
 
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I believe in 16:9, the largest they can do is 115" diagonal.

*****edit*****
exactly what Glenn posted
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post #2672 of 3726 Old 08-31-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The following manufacturers chose to present their products using Screen Innovations' Black Diamond at CEDIA next week. Unquestionably a spectacular testimonial for BD performance and technology.

JVC Procision - Booth # 1127

JVC Professional Products - Hyatt Regency

Sony - Booth 1803

Epson - Booth 3751

Sim2 - Booth 5241

Vivitek - Booth 5531

Wolf Cinema - Sound Room (SR) 15

Panamorph - Booth 3265

Projection Design - Marriott Hotel

Procella Audio - Sound Room (SR) 8

NavNet- Booth 213

Paradigm Electronics - Booth 3224
Absolutely - that is huge! Thanks for sharing that info.

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post #2673 of 3726 Old 08-31-2011, 12:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The following manufacturers chose to present their products using Screen Innovations' Black Diamond at CEDIA next week. Unquestionably a spectacular testimonial for BD performance and technology.

JVC Procision - Booth # 1127

JVC Professional Products - Hyatt Regency

Sony - Booth 1803

Epson - Booth 3751

Sim2 - Booth 5241

Vivitek - Booth 5531

Wolf Cinema - Sound Room (SR) 15

Panamorph - Booth 3265

Projection Design - Marriott Hotel

Procella Audio - Sound Room (SR) 8

NavNet- Booth 213

Paradigm Electronics - Booth 3224
Thats Awesome Info
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post #2674 of 3726 Old 08-31-2011, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
The following manufacturers chose to present their products using Screen Innovations' Black Diamond at CEDIA next week. Unquestionably a spectacular testimonial for BD performance and technology.

JVC Procision - Booth # 1127

JVC Professional Products - Hyatt Regency

Sony - Booth 1803

Epson - Booth 3751

Sim2 - Booth 5241

Vivitek - Booth 5531


Wolf Cinema - Sound Room (SR) 15

Panamorph - Booth 3265

Projection Design - Marriott Hotel

Procella Audio - Sound Room (SR) 8

NavNet- Booth 213

Paradigm Electronics - Booth 3224
Any idea on which gain they would be using?
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post #2675 of 3726 Old 08-31-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ParanoidDroid View Post
Any idea on which gain they would be using?
I have no idea.

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post #2676 of 3726 Old 09-02-2011, 09:09 AM
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Some observations from samples:

I have a sample of the new 2.7 gain and a Vutec Silverstar 6.0.

This was a quick 2 minute review. The projector wasnt setup correctly. It was on the right side of the room @ eye level. I was sitting on the left side. Both screens are angular reflective. I dont have a ceiling mount yet so have to go by this.....

But it was hard to tell any difference in the 2.

The SS had slightly better blacks. Compression noise was a little less noticeable on the SS. Plus the SS is known for its huge viewing angle. I couldnt compare those as it wasnt setup properly for that. The sheen looked about the same for both. Ive heard SS has a noticeably bright sheen on some scenes.

Ill try and setup the screen samples with a properly placed projector soon. But for now, the 2.7 gain looks no better than a Silverstar. I can take pics of someone wants. What's the best setting on my camera for this?

Could someone get some samples and confirm?
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post #2677 of 3726 Old 09-06-2011, 08:46 AM
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I saw the sharp xvz17000 on a 92" BD II .8 gain at my local best buy(magnolia). The salesman also had the 1.4 sample he held up to the screen. With all the lights on in the studio I wasn't that impressed as the room I would like to put the screen on will have a lot more ambient light than their studio.
My question is who has seen the 2.7 gain BD III (not just samples) and what are his/her impressions on it?

Paul Seng
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post #2678 of 3726 Old 09-06-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_Seng View Post

I saw the sharp xvz17000 on a 92" BD II .8 gain at my local best buy(magnolia). The salesman also had the 1.4 sample he held up to the screen. With all the lights on in the studio I wasn't that impressed as the room I would like to put the screen on will have a lot more ambient light than their studio.
My question is who has seen the 2.7 gain BD III (not just samples) and what are his/her impressions on it?

1st,.
The .8 Gain is way way better in the G3.
You do need a good projector with it but most of the screen shots i have posted are on that version.

2nd
Have seen the 2.7 Gain and flip a few pages back and you will see screen shots of the 2.7 gain with a mits 9000

I also gave my thoughts of that Screen
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post #2679 of 3726 Old 09-06-2011, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraisa View Post

1st,.
The .8 Gain is way way better in the G3.
You do need a good projector with it but most of the screen shots i have posted are on that version.

2nd
Have seen the 2.7 Gain and flip a few pages back and you will see screen shots of the 2.7 gain with a mits 9000

I also gave my thoughts of that Screen

Thanks. I'll look for the post

Paul Seng
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post #2680 of 3726 Old 09-08-2011, 11:46 AM
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Black Diamond ZeroEdge at CEDIA.

Attachment 222096
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post #2681 of 3726 Old 09-08-2011, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Black Diamond ZeroEdge at CEDIA.

Attachment 222096

The 80" Zero Edge on the left was getting blasted by a 5000 lumen BenQ I'm just say'in......

I saw a 84" DP Supernova hit by just 600 lumens (by Digital Projection) doing the exact same thing.
For $1700.00 (...but it did have a thicker edge....)

I might just move to Denmark.
(wishfull thinking, eh?)

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #2682 of 3726 Old 09-09-2011, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Black Diamond ZeroEdge at CEDIA.

Attachment 222096

Any idea on which gains these were?
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post #2683 of 3726 Old 09-09-2011, 04:22 PM
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I have a 142" 2.4 Black Diamond 1.4 gain and was wondering if I would need a new screen with this new Epson 3D Projector?

John

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post #2684 of 3726 Old 09-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post


The 80" Zero Edge on the left was getting blasted by a 5000 lumen BenQ

I wasn't really attempting to capture a representation of the image quality, as much as just taking a picture of the booth. Maybe I'll try and take a better pic tomorrow.

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post #2685 of 3726 Old 09-09-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParanoidDroid View Post


Any idea on which gains these were?

1.4 on the left; 2.7 on the right.

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post #2686 of 3726 Old 09-10-2011, 02:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

I have a 142" 2.4 Black Diamond 1.4 gain and was wondering if I would need a new screen with this new Epson 3D Projector?

John

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...first-look.php

For the best 3d experiance you need 2.7 gain,
1.4 will work but certain way you angle your head the 3d can fall off
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post #2687 of 3726 Old 09-10-2011, 02:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

I wasn't really attempting to capture a representation of the image quality, as much as just taking a picture of the booth. Maybe I'll try and take a better pic tomorrow.

Yes please if you can post some more shots...
Thanks
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post #2688 of 3726 Old 09-10-2011, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraisa

Yes please if you can post some more shots...
Thanks
It's difficult (if not impossible) to get an accurate representation of the image using an iPhone 4. This was the best I could make happen...



Attachment 222312



Attachment 222313



Attachment 222314
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post #2689 of 3726 Old 09-11-2011, 03:10 AM
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post #2690 of 3726 Old 09-11-2011, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

It's difficult (if not impossible) to get an accurate representation of the image using an iPhone 4. This was the best I could make happen...

That image shows the 80" Zero Edge getting walloped by a 5000 lumen BenQ.
(previously mentioned) In the first image, the Center metering on the IPhone was biased toward the projected image, and crushed down all the other room lighting.

I have a couple others that show the same thing using my own camera. One can expect such to happen when there is too much light reflecting off a screen...and the use of the 5K lumen BenQ set just 6 feet away was counterproductive to capturing a decent shot..

As seen below:




Obviously, intense brightness was desired to show a "Plasma-like" image under the lighting conditions that prevailed (...although they had 50% of the Overheads turned off...) but that's taking it too far on too small a screen IMO when your supposed to be touting ambient light performance.

One can always make a good showing in a Bicycle Race if one rides a Ducati.

Now when you swing away from that blazing image and over toward the same screen getting hit by 1000 lumens, this is what you see.



If you peek at the left edge of the last shot where you can see the other ZE screen on the left, you can see just how much difference the 5000 lumens makes.


The last photo does a good job of showing real life existing light levels and screen performance on the 80" ZE screen. If they had used a 2000 lumen PJ the balance needed might have been achieved. With just 1000 lumens, the ZE BD is at least accomplishing more than one would expect normally. I can respect what I saw in that image as being a reality-based result.



However this next image of a 84" DNP Supernova getting just 600 lumens shows something else entirely.





Next up...a couple shots of the "Inside the Booth" Demo.





The Demo did NOT include any imagery of dark content, so any effective determination as to how well black levels were /could be preserved wash literally "a wash".***

*** The shot below was the darkest content shown in the Demo. A obvious "Hot spot" exists in the center.



This next image is a screen set to the left side of the main Demo Screen. They only showed a static image. It had to be a "Still" because it never changed the entire time of the show. The overhead lighting was all set behind the screen, so it's effect was inconsequential. Under the sideways directed sconce lighting...contrast obviously suffered. Not bad though....credit where it's due must be given.



Post Script:

After dwelling on the above fer a spell, I thought I'd venture a assessment:

Now let me make one thing perfectly clear....the BD3 did look splendid as showed. And I saw no sparkles. I did see plainly obvious speckles in brightly lit sections of the image, especially in panned scenes, from a 15' viewing distance. (I wear glasses too...) . The dreaded "Dirty Window" effect. But lemmie' tell ya this. It was as noticeable as it was primarily because 90% of all exhibited material was not "contrasty" programming. More confusing is that when there was some contrasty content...a scene with some real black content(...and I never could catch any because it didn't stick around long enough and came along so infrequently...) the screens absolutely looked their best. Maybe they didn't blaze, but the looked very good...and that's a truism there.

Sadly, much of the above is a repeat of what happened at last year's CEDIA. Promotion took precedent over showing the real deal. Almost every location that used a BD screen took pains to at least mitigate worst-case lighting scenarios. Some did use Light Howitzers (5000 lumen jobs) but some, like Epson used the BD screens to their best effect. Of course they don't sell 'em, they just take advantage of them.

The BD lineup has serious competition, and cannot hold any claim to being the definitive ambient light solution. A really good one for certain....but certainly not the only one worth of note...or in a problematical sense, the Best performing...or the best value. That's a "IMO" so others are free to differ, absolutely.

Lastly, please note that I'm extremely critical about particular aspects of screen performance...perhaps more so than any Reviewer ever would be. I expect perhaps too much owing to my own degree of belief of what constitutes performance and appearance as relates to value. So understand that your own experience and satisfaction may, and most likely will not match up against my own. I heard plenty of "That's amazing" ....and "That's Incredible!" coming from my Peers around me, so by all means take that into consideration as well.

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post #2691 of 3726 Old 09-11-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
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Now let me make one thing perfectly clear....the BD3 did look splendid as showed. And I saw no sparkles. I did see plainly obvious speckles in brightly lit sections of the image, especially in panned scenes, from a 15' viewing distance. (I wear glasses too...) . The dreaded "Dirty Window" effect.
The BD lineup has serious competition, and cannot hold any claim to being the definitive ambient light solution. A really good one for certain....but certainly not the only one worth of note...or in a problematical sense, the Best performing...or the best value. That's a "IMO" so others are free to differ, absolutely.

In fact, there is a new High Contrast Light Rejection Screen from "Skyline", that combines the best spec. from "SI Black Diamond" and "Dalite HP"... It's the new High Contrast Screen from "Skyline Screens"! And here you can read a shootout DNP Supernova - SI Black Diamond - and Skyline:

http://www.skylinescreens.com/about-1/recensioni/ is an Italian site.

It's a new 1.8 (2.5 gain is avalaible too...) gain screen, with light rejection properties, that help you to have a brightest white and at the same time a darkest black, with even ambient light... or in a living room with white reflective ceiling and wall. Black diamond is dark, Da lite HP is light, Skyline have dark black and light white! I have bought one 91" and i'm going to describe it...
Years ago, I read a review of the DNP supernova, but records do not fully convinced me and I decided to wait times and better materials. Then came the SI Black Diamond and things seemed better, but the users complained about the owners of the cloth (at least some) some defects unacceptable to me, as speckles, and as sparkles, and more or less visible in some types of installation, definitely unbearable ... Then came the most interesting Skyline, from the technical specifications (gain of 1.8 against 0.8 BD) especially in view of a future 3D projector, and which was said to have no side effects like hot spots or sparkles or speckles etc.. And now i own it, and here you can read my review:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359032
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post #2692 of 3726 Old 09-11-2011, 05:00 PM
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While your screen might be the 1.8 gain Skyline version, the Shootout on the Skyline site compared the .8 gain versions of the DNP and BD screens with a 2.5 gain Skyline.

Hardly anything but a test weighted favorably toward the Skyline. A true comparative test would be involving at least the 1.4 gain Gen.3 BD and the 1.7 gain SNP screens against the 2.5 Skyline.

Pretty much "business" as usual.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359032 >

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post #2693 of 3726 Old 09-11-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

the Shootout on the Skyline site compared the .8 gain versions of the DNP and BD screens with a 2.5 gain Skyline.

A true comparative test would be involving at least the 1.4 gain Gen.3 BD and the 1.7 gain SNP screens against the 2.5 Skyline.

It's true, there will be one next..., but is shown in the shootout, that gain values ​​are real and respected by all manufacturers, and varying versions of the gain, the proportions do not change, it would still have a similar black level but a highest white with Skyline (Ex .: BD 1.4 vs. Skyline 1.8 or Skyline 2.5, black remains the same but the white is in favor of Skyline, and consequently the contrast ...).
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post #2694 of 3726 Old 09-12-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliv7 View Post

It's true, there will be one next..., but is shown in the shootout, that gain values ​​are real and respected by all manufacturers, and varying versions of the gain, the proportions do not change, it would still have a similar black level but a highest white with Skyline (Ex .: BD 1.4 vs. Skyline 1.8 or Skyline 2.5, black remains the same but the white is in favor of Skyline, and consequently the contrast ...).

Those are more "assumptions" than confirm-able facts, as different gains on different screens can introduce many different aberrations, from Color shifts to artifacts...etc. If a Mfg. Gray screen is not ISF Certified as being Neutral...it WILL pusg one way or another.

Gain is not the end all solution by and of itself. When combined effectively with contrast enhancing / preserving tendencies, the equation usually improves. But not always, nor proportionately as you seem to be willing to assume.

If your merely an end user, then such assumptions might be understandable. However something in your remarks seem to point toward your trying overly hard to convince people of "facts" that as of yet have no reference to be judged by. Statements that attempt to throw a Blanket assessment over any screen's potential performance always are to be considered suspect until irrevocably proven.

I've personally had that pointed out to me ...well, let's say more than once.

That is not to say your not right in your assumptions, and if you are, it might indeed bode well for many. Depending on the price point...which was conspicuously absent.

I sometimes post on this thread, but almost never reference any competing Screen Mfg or even a specific DIY application, out of common courtesy and accepted decorum. My mention of the DNP was to make a comparative point, and is itself resting on the boarder line of propriety. Still, it was and remains a good reference point for comparison.

One thing I DID NOT do was post a link to another competing Screen Mfg's website. There are lines I don't cross no matter how effusive I might feel about something.

You should carry this topic about the Skyline Screen products over to a new dedicated Thread....also out of courtesy. There you can make the statements and post the empirical evidence you feel necessary to illustrate your points without having anyone find a hair in your soup for having done so.

But keep everything involving promotion down to a dull roar, and focus on showing EXACTLY what the products can do. By all means post up about any and all valid comparisons, and make your own judgements and feelings known.

Do that, and I assure everyone who wants to respond to your missives will do likewise.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #2695 of 3726 Old 09-12-2011, 01:34 PM
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I agree with Mississippi man in terms of SI marketing, I just came back from CEDIA this year and checked out their booth as well. They were shooting high power projectors into small screens to get the best effect. Also the spark-lies and screen graininess problems have not been addressed. There has just been too many compromises in the material, clearly you can build a screen that enhances contrast without the hot spot, texturing as demonstrated by DNP. Retail pricing wise, they are basically the same. Basically their screen material consists of plastic backing and some sort of metallic paint painted onto a Mylar sheet bonded to the plastic backing. I have seen a lot contrast enhancing materials and the mark of a inferior material is one that boost contrast and at the same time creates a large amount of artifacts in the picture. What boggles my mind is how they managed to sell everyone SI is amazing with all its apparent flaws, great marketing for you. But that's marketing for you which you learn pretty early in business school that it is 80% marketing and only 20% product.

If you want a good ambient light rejection screen look at: Stewart Firehawk (solid contrast boost without the spark-lies), the hardest part in making a screen material that gives contrast enhancement properties is to keep the defects as minimal as possible. Stewart has that done with the Firehawk. SI has simply covered over their short comings with great marketing. They should be applauded for that.

If you want the best contrast enhancing screen that is ISF certified and no sparkles or flaws go with DNP Supernova. SI cannot get ISF certification due to their flaws. I examined their material thoroughly and it had both great ambient light rejection, contrast boost and Reference screen qualities of no texturing. Simply amazing product, but DNP's marketing could use work. Their booth didn't receive anywhere near the same traffic.
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post #2696 of 3726 Old 09-12-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHao View Post

\\

If you want the best contrast enhancing screen that is ISF certified and no sparkles or flaws go with DNP Supernova. SI cannot get ISF certification due to their flaws. I examined their material thoroughly and it had both great ambient light rejection, contrast boost and Reference screen qualities of no texturing. Simply amazing product, but DNP's marketing could use work. Their booth didn't receive anywhere near the same traffic.

Well....short of my going so far as to giving the BD3 the "BS" label, everything stated above is true.

Especially DNP's "shoe lace" presentation! The Gentleman doing most the presentation was kinda a rough looking character. (...probably just a hard workin' fella....) But he was verrrrry polite and verrrry obliging as he didn't hesitate a second when PB-Maxxx & I asked to hold up some DIY screen samples, and so right off they willingly obliged us. Both Reps didn't even lose their cool when we held one uber-dark example up that kinda embarrassed the 135" 1.7 gain DNP. (...we actually got "gasps" from other attendees and a "Head Nod" from the DNP guys...)

But nothing in our arsenal could make a dent in theDNP 2.5 gain version. (shown above) Yeow! Absolutely nothing else compared to it at CEDIA in Performance / Value. I gotta state...I turned a bit Green.
Lottsa work to do and a very lofty pinnacle to aspire to reach.


The Booth itself was low key to a fault, and the location bespoke of their having decided at the last moment to exhibit.

Maybe not though...as the Big Boys have already staked out 2012's locations. 'Tis the way of things..

Anywho, the best thing that could happen would be the SI would get up off their price point and drop down into realistic territory. But I said the same thing about Stewart Screens 6 years ago and.........

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #2697 of 3726 Old 09-12-2011, 10:08 PM
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However this next image of a 84" DNP Supernova getting just 600 lumens shows something else entirely.


Interesting pics from Cedia. What DNP screen material was in that picture ?


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... Both Reps didn't even lose their cool when we held one uber-dark example up that kinda embarrassed the 135" 1.7 gain DNP. (...we actually got "gasps" from other attendees and a "Head Nod" from the DNP guys...)

But nothing in our arsenal could make a dent in theDNP 2.5 gain version. (shown above) Yeow! Absolutely nothing else compared to it at CEDIA in Performance / Value. I gotta state...I turned a bit Green.
Lottsa work to do and a very lofty pinnacle to aspire to reach.

Are you sure about those gain ratings? For some time they have offered a .85 gain and 2.3 gain.

And to be fair to BD- Perhaps their screens are not without trade-offs, but for many it enables them to have a large projection screen where they otherwise might not.
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post #2698 of 3726 Old 09-13-2011, 04:30 AM
 
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Hey Miss Man
Thanks for posting some pics of the booth,
and one thing i love about SI is that they introduce stuff to the rest of the industry IE,
Zero Edge...
They are leading the way and people are definetly taking notice...
Thanks again

Cant wait to get my zero edge screen
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post #2699 of 3726 Old 09-13-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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Hey Miss Man
Thanks for posting some pics of the booth,
and one thing i love about SI is that they introduce stuff to the rest of the industry IE,
Zero Edge...
They are leading the way and people are definetly taking notice...
Thanks again

Cant wait to get my zero edge screen

not 100% true. I've assisted with a few 'zero edge' type of screens already from different manufacturers. both rear and front projection.....pain in the butt to work with.
But i do believe that SI is the first to introduce it as a standard model so definitely give them credit!

benito
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post #2700 of 3726 Old 09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
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I agree with Mississippi man in terms of SI marketing, I just came back from CEDIA this year and checked out their booth as well. They were shooting high power projectors into small screens to get the best effect. Also the spark-lies and screen graininess problems have not been addressed. I don't think it will ever be addressed as their technology is BS. Basically their screen material consists of plastic backing and some sort of metallic paint painted onto a Mylar sheet bonded to the plastic backing. I have seen a lot contrast enhancing materials and the mark of a inferior material is one that boost contrast and at the same time creates a large amount of artifacts in the picture. What boggles my mind is how they managed to sell everyone SI is amazing with all its apparent flaws, great marketing for you.

If you want a good ambient light rejection screen look at: Stewart Firehawk (solid contrast boost without the spark-lies), the hardest part in making a screen material that gives contrast enhancement properties is to keep the defects as minimal as possible. Stewart has that done with the Firehawk. SI has simply covered over their short comings with great marketing. They should be applauded for that.

If you want the best contrast enhancing screen that is ISF certified and no sparkles or flaws go with DNP Supernova. SI cannot get ISF certification due to their flaws. I examined their material thoroughly and it had both great ambient light rejection, contrast boost and Reference screen qualities of no texturing. Simply amazing product, but DNP's marketing could use work. Their booth didn't receive anywhere near the same traffic.

You have no idea how our screen works so please stop posting that you do.
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