Throw vs. gain and BIG screens - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-10-2008, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi

I'm learning that most screens top out a little past a 120", how does screen paint stack up? I am currently 'test' projecting and area 170" diag 16:9 I believe. and I want a good compromise b/w brightness/contrast and size soooo... I'm getting confused b/w the throw distance, and how that will be counteracted by the screen material's gain level. So could I get a bigger picture (dimmer) and then regain some of that light level by getting a better gain on the screen?

Right now I'm just trying to see how big I can really get the picture with my new benq w1000 and watched Appleseed last night at 170" diagonal ( believe that is at the 16:9 ratio - filled up the whole available area - I have a pretty long room, 40 or so by 14). My friend says I may be getting a little ridiculous and should stick around 120" diag. The projected light level seemed ok to me though considering I was using a standard white wall (at night w/ lights off) and we sit back far enough to really enjoy the bigger screen size (we aren't having to look from side to side). Could I realistically get an image that size to really "pop" with a good screen? Its a really good projector from the research I've done here. I'm also planning on following some other advice on this forum and paint the ceiling near the screen flat black. What are the general recommendations on size? I plan on mostly viewing movies at night with the occasional 'super bowl' gathering (moderately back lit). Would the screen paint be adequate for a noob that might not know the difference?

So I guess there are multiple questions packed in here. Feel free to educate me on any one of them, or just let me know if I am beyond help

Thanks!
Mike
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post #2 of 17 Old 01-10-2008, 12:43 PM
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Try a 159" 16:9 High Power screen. Works great and price is good. Unless you have a 10' + ceiling 170" is going to put the screen on the floor for the most part, meaning there's no place to put a center channel etc.
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-10-2008, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutmos View Post

Try a 159" 16:9 High Power screen. Works great and price is good. Unless you have a 10' + ceiling 170" is going to put the screen on the floor for the most part, meaning there's no place to put a center channel etc.

I've been in contact with Da-Lite recently and they are telling me they can do a seamless High Power as large as 74" high now. That means about 151" 16X9 diagonal in a fixed frame screen...they said they won't allow larger than that because they will not make a fixed frame screen with a seam. It's possible to go even larger without a seam in the viewing area by going with an electric or a manual screen, in which case the seam will be where the viewing area meets the border or be in the border.
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post #4 of 17 Old 01-10-2008, 04:12 PM
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Just as a datapoint, you can't see any seam when there is one. On my 159" model C pull down there's supposedly a seam but I haven't been able to find it in the last 6 months.
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-10-2008, 10:47 PM
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Remember that the rule of thumb is by 500 hours most bulbs loose something like half their brightness. If the bulb is just bright enough new (if it is new now) it might not be later. You can simulate the brightness loss with a ND2 filter (neutral density filter) to see what you might be facing in the future. Because of the way the mind and eye process data half the lumens may not seem half as bright but it will be noticeable.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Tutmos - i started looking into those high power screens and you are correct, at 170" the picture goes clear to the floor so I guess I would have to go a little smaller unless I could find a creative way of mounting a pretty heavy center channel on the ceiling Being new to all this, who makes the model C? That's also very helpful in the decision process to know about the seem not being too visible.

hrd - that's the largest I've heard of yet for a fixed screen. nice. So why is it that fixed screens are (generally speaking) smaller than pull downs? I would think that a seem would be more of an issue with a pull down mechanism and less of an issue with a fixed unit. Do people like fixed screens better just b/c they are farmed and look nicer or is there another advantage?

Video_bit_bucket - is that rule of thumb the same with a dlp projector? I seem to remember when researching the projector that the light level didn't degrade as much? Is that just wishful thinking? The projector is new now so your point is very relevant in my case. I will look into getting one of those ND2 filters though, hopefully today I can order one.

Thanks
Mike
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 06:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Tutmos - just answered my own question on who makes the model C :P
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutmos View Post

Try a 159" 16:9 High Power screen. Works great and price is good. Unless you have a 10' + ceiling 170" is going to put the screen on the floor for the most part, meaning there's no place to put a center channel etc.

I remember you mentioned in another thread that you found it a non-issue. In my particular case, a High Power large enough to have a seam in the viewing area is not even a possibility because of my limited wall space. The wall is 137.25" wide. According to Da-Lite, the largest Contour Electrol I could fit would be only 141" diagonal and the largest Model C I could fit would be 149" diagonal. The problem is the case makes for wider screens than the frames of the fixed frame screens do. I could go as large as about 154" diagonal with a Da-Snap fixed frame if Da-Lite would allow a seam to be in the fabric, but they said they would not make me a fixed frame screen with a seam. The fact that I can still get 151" to 152" of that 154" size is nice. Literally a wall-sized image. Even the height makes it wall-size and covers most of the distance from the floor to the ceiling.

I have to get my new projector in so I can try out this kind of size first before going ahead and ordering it. The stock 133" and a custom 144" are still possibilities. With my limited throw distance, the larger the screen size, the fewer projectors I could upgrade to down the road and be able to fill the screen without an add-on lens or a move to another house. The Sony VW200 would top out at about 147".
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 09:35 AM
 
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Since the Hi Power hangs well without a frame, you could order one that has material the exact width of the room; remove the spring retracting assembly and hang the screen attached to an aluminum square tube the width of the room. Granted you probably lose any warranty,but you would gain about 4-6" in screen width. These screens are so forgiving, you do not need to stretch them, just hang them. The bottom draw-down weight tube would also have to be cut to size if necessary. You could then attach some velcro to the tube and wall to keep the bottom stable and tight to the wall.

Just a thought. Bob
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Since the Hi Power hangs well without a frame, you could order one that has material the exact width of the room; remove the spring retracting assembly and hang the screen attached to an aluminum square tube the width of the room. Granted you probably lose any warranty,but you would gain about 4-6" in screen width. These screens are so forgiving, you do not need to stretch them, just hang them. The bottom draw-down weight tube would also have to be cut to size if necessary. You could then attach some velcro to the tube and wall to keep the bottom stable and tight to the wall.

Just a thought. Bob

I could certainly save a lot of money by ordering a manual screen and removing the fabric and making my own frame, although I'm not so good at DIY stuff. I suppose I could hire someone to do it.
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 11:09 AM
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The bulb life/output issue is related to the bulb technology/manufacturer and not the display type as I understand it.

There has been at least one thread that was reporting lots of variation in bulb output from bulb to bulb in the same PJ, believe it was the RS-1. Just interesting to know.

RE the high power screen, you do need to be mindful of the seating position, at 13 feet from the screen someone sitting in the middle of a sofa sliding to the outside will see a significant difference in brightness. There is a spreadsheet someone built in one of the threads that allows you to calculate gain for different seating positions.



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Originally Posted by mcemond View Post

Hi Tutmos - i started looking into those high power screens and you are correct, at 170" the picture goes clear to the floor so I guess I would have to go a little smaller unless I could find a creative way of mounting a pretty heavy center channel on the ceiling Being new to all this, who makes the model C? That's also very helpful in the decision process to know about the seem not being too visible.

hrd - that's the largest I've heard of yet for a fixed screen. nice. So why is it that fixed screens are (generally speaking) smaller than pull downs? I would think that a seem would be more of an issue with a pull down mechanism and less of an issue with a fixed unit. Do people like fixed screens better just b/c they are farmed and look nicer or is there another advantage?

Video_bit_bucket - is that rule of thumb the same with a dlp projector? I seem to remember when researching the projector that the light level didn't degrade as much? Is that just wishful thinking? The projector is new now so your point is very relevant in my case. I will look into getting one of those ND2 filters though, hopefully today I can order one.

Thanks
Mike

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post #12 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Video_bit - I may have been mistaken, your last post seems correct as I looked back and they were talking about differences in contrast and pixel burn out with lcd vs dlp.

I think the link you are referring to is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...model+c+screen

With all the help here I've soundly decided on a High power screen. My room is 14 x 45 so I don't anticipate any angles being too steep and with the ambient light of windows and 'sports lighting' they are seeming more and more like the absolute best.

However I have not found any info on the de-lite site that differentiates retro-reflective screens from angular-reflective, are they all retro-reflective these days (see afore mentioned link)?

Threed - Cool idea on framing the pull down screen
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcemond View Post

However I have not found any info on the de-lite site that differentiates retro-reflective screens from angular-reflective, are they all retro-reflective these days (see afore mentioned link)?

Read Tryg's thread for info on the differences:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065
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post #14 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcemond View Post

Hi Tutmos - i started looking into those high power screens and you are correct, at 170" the picture goes clear to the floor so I guess I would have to go a little smaller unless I could find a creative way of mounting a pretty heavy center channel on the ceiling Being new to all this, who makes the model C? That's also very helpful in the decision process to know about the seem not being too visible.

hrd - that's the largest I've heard of yet for a fixed screen. nice. So why is it that fixed screens are (generally speaking) smaller than pull downs? I would think that a seem would be more of an issue with a pull down mechanism and less of an issue with a fixed unit. Do people like fixed screens better just b/c they are farmed and look nicer or is there another advantage?

Video_bit_bucket - is that rule of thumb the same with a dlp projector? I seem to remember when researching the projector that the light level didn't degrade as much? Is that just wishful thinking? The projector is new now so your point is very relevant in my case. I will look into getting one of those ND2 filters though, hopefully today I can order one.

Thanks
Mike

I don't know why Da-Lite told me they could not do a fixed screen with a seam, but that definitely limits the size to 74" high of High Power fabric. Judging by my past experiences with them, though, I would not be surprised if the next time I called they told me they could indeed do a fixed frame screen with a seam.

Fixed frame looks nice and avoids the issues with waves that can come up over time. Da-Lite fixed frame screens are more expensive than their electric and manual screens, which would limit the popularity with some customers as they get larger. A lot of the cost of the fixed frame goes into the actual frame. If you look at the prices on the Da-Lite website, you'll notice there's a big difference in prices between the smallest and the largest fixed frame, but a small difference in prices between the smallest and the largest electric. That obviously means a lot of the cost of the fixed frame screen goes into the frame, while most of the cost of the electric screen goes into the roller mechanism.

http://www.da-lite.com/products/prod...cID=20&pID=234

http://www.da-lite.com/products/prod...cID=29&pID=288
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post #15 of 17 Old 01-11-2008, 03:23 PM
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If I remember correctly a fair number of people just buy the model C pulldown and cut the material out and mount it to their own frame for a big savings.
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post #16 of 17 Old 01-14-2008, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks for the help, I am going to go with a pull down b/c of the money savings and If I do end up needing the lateral tension of a frame, I am pretty good with wood framing so I'll probably be able to figure something out. Thanks again!
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post #17 of 17 Old 01-14-2008, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcemond View Post

Cool, thanks for the help, I am going to go with a pull down b/c of the money savings and If I do end up needing the lateral tension of a frame, I am pretty good with wood framing so I'll probably be able to figure something out. Thanks again!

Another option is a Da-Lite Perm-Wall. It's close to the price of the pulldown, because the frame is pretty basic and is not sturdy enough to support the weight of the screen and so has to be nailed to the wall or placed in a wall enclosure. If the installation restriction works for you, you could get the tension and wave-free advantages of a fixed frame screen at a pulldown price. The Da-Lite Perm-Wall is mentioned in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=976318
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