Is LED a powerful enough light source? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 05-03-2008, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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As LED technology is coming most likely within the year for FP. Please, post any news and advancements that have been made so that we can create a single thread with all the information that concerns LED as a light source for FP use.
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post #2 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 08:38 AM
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I can't see it used for FP. Most projectors need a very intense point-source light to illuminate a small LCD panel, DMD etc. LEDs really need to be clustered to create lots of light. (and current hi-power LEDs need a heat sink).


They're probably more use on a flat-panel where they can be spread out (and their heat more effectively dissipated).
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post #3 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 08:44 AM
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My first HDTV was a lamp based Samsung 50" DLP.(about two years ago)
I recently very shortly owned a LED Samsung 61" DLP.
I returned it for a couple reasons, but one was that is was too bright. At night, I would ramp the contrast and brightness down big time just so my eyes didn't feel like they were going to bleed. Which of course completely ruined the PQ.

I'm not sure how that transfers to LED PJ's though.
SSpivey could be correct.
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post #4 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 08:47 AM
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If they are anything like what they have on Police vehicles these day's they should be bright enough. We have had some accidents on highways at night because of the intensity of the flashing lights on top of the police cars. I happened to drive by a work zone on the highway this week and the flashing lights on top of the car made me have dark spots in my vision. These new lights on police crusers are very bad. Way too intense.

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post #5 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

There is alot of info going on about LED light sources. Are LEDs powerful enough for FP applications? Can they put out the same amount of lumens as a lamp? I know that when Samsung put LEDs into their RP DLP, people complained that the sets were not as bright as the lamp based models. So how are we gonna light up our 100"+ screens?

I have an automotive benchmark for LEDs. They may exist already, though I haven't seen them, but when LEDs make it into car headlights, then well be ready. In my opinion it isn't a matter of power efficiency or clustering (you can always put more) problems. I just don't think any one has been able to make them bright enough, where brightness is not a trade off...i.e. projectors, headlights, etc.

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post #6 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 09:21 AM
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It's not just lumen output that matters--colour rendering index (CRI) is important too. A projector needs a lamp that emits light across the whole spectrum, otherwise colours will look awful. MH,HPS,Xe do this.

Those police cars just need to emit lots of light--they don't need to make anyone look good...
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post #7 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 09:35 AM
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Yes, the colour accuracy is very important for the projectors. The 3 chip projectors separate 3 colours optically and recombines to produce the final picture.
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post #8 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 12:02 PM
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"A projector needs a lamp that emits light across the whole spectrum, otherwise colours will look awful. "

The holy grail for pj light sources is the three correct R, G, and B wavelengths, i.e. lasers being the most famous example.

The trouble with UHP is that the colors don't have the optimum wavelength or distribution.

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post #9 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 05:40 PM
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We shall see perhaps Cedia, perhaps a year later. remember LEDs don't dim with age so 650 lumens might be equivalent to a 1000 lumens bulb with 200 hours or so on it.

A cluster of a R,G, and B LEDs or multiple clusters might do the trick. something is coming though.

Alan thinks its a year or more off. I think we will see something in the $30K class at Cedia LED based. I dunno fo sure.

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post #10 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 05:56 PM
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Is laser a powerful enough light source?
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post #11 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 06:06 PM
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post #12 of 46 Old 05-04-2008, 06:24 PM
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post #13 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 01:22 PM
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LED Front Projectors are currently being designed, built and tested by more than one manufacturer in Japan. Brightness is the issue right now. So far they've only been able to achieve 250 lumens with a projector the size of the old three gun CRT's.

Laser technology has not been a viable option for front projection so far.

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post #14 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

If they are anything like what they have on Police vehicles these day's they should be bright enough. We have had some accidents on highways at night because of the intensity of the flashing lights on top of the police cars. I happened to drive by a work zone on the highway this week and the flashing lights on top of the car made me have dark spots in my vision. These new lights on police cruisers are very bad. Way too intense.

Ron

Its so idiots see them in their rear view mirror, and avoid hitting the actual police cruiser, ya know the idiots in the lane that should yield to an emergency vehicle pulled off the side of the road.

Perhaps its why they needed brighter leds, so that in the rain and heavy snowfall you can as a safe responsible driver see them to make proper judgment call.

Cheers

Bobby
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post #15 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB2 View Post

Brightness is the issue right now. So far they've only been able to achieve 250 lumens with a projector the size of the old three gun CRT's.

awha?

That sounds like info from the early 2000s....

If you look at the Phlatlight technology (thanks Ohlson! )
You'll see that they already have 16:9 (12mm^2 chip area) single LED chips blasting out 875 lumens for RED, 2100 lumens for GREEN and 400 lumens for BLUE.
Wavelengths are: 626nm RED, 528nm GREEN, 463nm BLUE.

In order to get D6500k out of the above wavelegths we need the following mix:

43.1% RED, 33.5% GREEN, 23.4% BLUE


So, let's take the dimmest (BLUE) LED and work backwards:

400lm (BLUE) at 23.4% means that we'll need
737lm (RED) for 43.1% and
573lm (GREEN) at 33.5% to get D65

BUT!

If you look at the spec, we can safely overdrive BLUE to 600lm (50% overdrive) and still be in the safe/ comfortable region for both RED and GREEN.

So,

If we redo our calculations we have:

600lm (BLUE - OVERDRIVEN) at 23.4% means that we'll need
1,105lm (RED) for 43.1% and
860lm (GREEN) at 33.5% to get D65

Now, add to that the various advantages that LEDs bring:
  • Dynamic Iris Operation
  • 80,000 hour halflife
  • Higher Efficiency (lm/W)
  • Lower thermal load - smaller heatsinks - simpler/smaller power supply
  • No colorwheel (for DLP)
  • Infinite contrast
  • Asynchronous operation (any color can be on or off)
  • Elimination of refresh artifacts

and we have a winner.

Now, back to the numbers, a single chip DLP system has a light conversion efficiency of about 15% (filters, colorwheels, light path losses, lamp inefficiencies etc. etc)

No doubt, an LED illuminated 1-DLP system would have a better efficiency than that but never better than the theoretical maximum of 33%.

Say, a good number would be 25% efficiency.
So, from the above numbers we get....

drumroll.....

a 640 lumen projector!

yay!

Seriously though, it is doable, but obviously, there are issues implementing it or we would have it already...

By the end of 2009, I'll bet we'll have a 1,000 lumen >100,000:1 CR projector.
Anybody willing to take me on?

Next projector will have LEDs, >=1080 res, >=10 bit color, >14bit CR, >9 bit ANSI CR, >=120Hz, >16ft.L on 12ft 2.35:1 screen, <$12bit price

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post #16 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:30 PM
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My info is that 650 is doable now and that we might see it at Cedia, and definately we will see it by Cedia 2009.

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post #17 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My info is that 650 is doable now and that we might see it at Cedia, and definately we will see it by Cedia 2009.

Thanks Mark,

That would put it (650 stable D65 lumens) at the top 20th percentile of present 1080 projectors.

I say, that's OUTSTANDING!

Bring it on! so i can buy the 3rd generation for $2k

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post #18 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrikos View Post

Wavelengths are: 626nm RED, 528nm GREEN, 463nm BLUE.

If these each have very narrow bands then it should be possible to make a screen that will reflect them, but reject a lot of ambient light (by rejecting all wavelengths except for the 3 narrow bands). Might also make it easier/cheaper to make a meter for measuring color balance, where the meter is specifically for projectors putting out those wavelengths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrikos View Post

No doubt, an LED illuminated 1-DLP system would have a better efficiency than that but never better than the theoretical maximum of 33%.

Why 33%? If that is from only have 1 of 3 colors at a time, it shouldn't apply to LEDs given how they can be driven harder while on if turned off for some of the time. That is a reason that LEDs should help single chip DLPs more than other projectors from what I've seen. The 2 technologies go together very well.

Another thing I think is an advantage of LEDs over current bulbs is the ability to put in some blank time between frames (to help motion perception) and then drive them harder when on. Blank time with bulbs means hurting on/off CR since the bulb is still on and also hurts lumens since the bulbs can't just be run harder the other time. Or at least not as much harder as I think LEDs can be. I'm not sure whether LEDs can be run enough harder to completely make up for the blank time, or just somewhat harder.

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post #19 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 03:54 PM
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There is a company that has a 1100 lumen LED FP. It may be shown at Cedia but in a shoe box case. They will try their best.
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post #20 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

If these each have very narrow bands then it should be possible to make a screen that will reflect them, but reject a lot of ambient light (by rejecting all wavelengths except for the 3 narrow bands).

--Darin


Spectral BW at phi=50% is 19nm, 39nm, 25nm for RGB respectively.
You're right, it's tight, not LASER tight though...
Excellent idea Darin. Selective screens would help a lot in high ambient situations. Sports bars anybody?
It may not be ideal for dedicated batcave HT due to other unforeseen issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Why 33%? If that is from only have 1 of 3 colors at a time, it shouldn't apply to LEDs given how they can be driven harder while on if turned off for some of the time. That is a reason that LEDs should help single chip DLPs more than other projectors from what I've seen. The 2 technologies go together very well.
--Darin

That was my thinking, yes. 1 color (of 3) at a time, 33% maximum theoretical.
I agree that 1-DLP and LED is an ideal marriage, but as far as I know, the LEDs can be overdriven 50% which wouldn't correspond to "50% brighter" since our vision is not linear. I may be wrong though. It's happened before...


Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post


Another thing I think is an advantage of LEDs over current bulbs is the ability to put in some blank time between frames (to help motion perception) and then drive them harder when on. Blank time with bulbs means hurting on/off CR since the bulb is still on and also hurts lumens since the bulbs can't just be run harder the other time. Or at least not as much harder as I think LEDs can be. I'm not sure whether LEDs can be run enough harder to completely make up for the blank time, or just somewhat harder.

--Darin

So, if I understand what you're saying:
For a 24Hz film, we refresh the LEDs at, say, 240Hz (for ease of calculation)

So, now we can show the same frame:
10 times - no blanks
9 times - 1 blank frame (11% brighter each of the 9 frames)
8 times - 2 blank frames (20% brighter each of the 8 frames)
.
.
5 times - 5 blanks (100% brighter each of the 5 frames)
.
.
.
1 time - 9 blanks (1000% brighter for the single frame)

to average the same frame brightness.

Of the 10 scenarios above, which is better?

Or, would it depend on the brightness of the frame itself?
More blanks for dark frames
less blanks for bright frames?

Am I in the ballpark at all?

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post #21 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

There is a company that has a 1100 lumen LED FP. It may be shown at Cedia but in a shoe box case. They will try their best.

Is the shoebox made of brushed aluminum?
If so, sign me up!

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Much better for Alan to blab it, than me. I think a fair inference is that an LED HT FP quality machine could be shown in some peotype form at Cedia 2008 but actually being able to order asnd take delivery will be some time off. i don't have a good feel for the tie frame. The beast will be expensive.

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post #23 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khellandros66 View Post

Its so idiots see them in their rear view mirror, and avoid hitting the actual police cruiser, ya know the idiots in the lane that should yield to an emergency vehicle pulled off the side of the road.

Perhaps its why they needed brighter leds, so that in the rain and heavy snowfall you can as a safe responsible driver see them to make proper judgment call.

Cheers

Bobby

I don't disagree with your comments about idiots on the road but these are way too bright. In the dark when they are flashing its like the sun flashing in your eyes. Maybe even worse. It causes black spots like a burn in your vision and you can not see the road after. They had a two car pile up on a highway near me because the cop had someone pulled over and the people driving on the highway lost vision due to the excessively bright flashing. I was surprised I couldn't see the road after I passed the cop on the side of the road. Thank God it was in a work zone and everyone was going slow.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


Alan. Did you ever try to pay a woman's shoe bills?

Just the shoes, I thought it was a pair of shoes and a purse with every outfit
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post #25 of 46 Old 05-05-2008, 06:56 PM
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The thing I don't get about the wavelength-selective screens is how can they put 3 filters on top of each other w/o killing all reflection?

"That was my thinking, yes. 1 color (of 3) at a time, 33% maximum theoretical.
I agree that 1-DLP and LED is an ideal marriage, but as far as I know, the LEDs can be overdriven 50% which wouldn't correspond to "50% brighter" since our vision is not linear."

Brightness is measured in L, not our subjective response.

Anyway, what you called efficiency is actually duty cycle.

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Which "efficiency" is actually "duty cycle"?
Are you talking about luminous efficiency of the light source (lm/W)?
If so, I don't think so.

I agree about the objective lumens measurement, I only wanted to convey the subjective feeling of 50% more lumens. It's not as much as people think.

Next projector will have LEDs, >=1080 res, >=10 bit color, >14bit CR, >9 bit ANSI CR, >=120Hz, >16ft.L on 12ft 2.35:1 screen, <$12bit price

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post #27 of 46 Old 05-06-2008, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Another thing I think is an advantage of LEDs over current bulbs is the ability to put in some blank time between frames (to help motion perception) and then drive them harder when on. Blank time with bulbs means hurting on/off CR since the bulb is still on and also hurts lumens since the bulbs can't just be run harder the other time. Or at least not as much harder as I think LEDs can be. I'm not sure whether LEDs can be run enough harder to completely make up for the blank time, or just somewhat harder.

--Darin

Would this blanking be in any way similar to the blanking that i see on almost every car that has LED tail lights to make them dimmer when the driver isn't stepping on the brakes?

Those led tail lights drive me crazy because when my eyes pan across the road, they leave annoying trails in my vision. This probably depends on the rate they are flashing. Some LED tail lights are more persistent than others. Vertical designs seem to be the most obvious though - like on Cadillacs. Come to think of it, vertical white lines on black backgrounds are the worst for RBE too, from my experience.

Anyway, I just hope they don't come up with another technology that only people who aren't sensitive to its defects can enjoy.
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post #28 of 46 Old 05-06-2008, 06:07 AM
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Some of us who have made the decision to go with large screens have painted ourselves into a corner if we don't see something closer to 2000 lumens.

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post #29 of 46 Old 05-06-2008, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Some of us who have made the decision to go with large screens have painted ourselves into a corner if we don't see something closer to 2000 lumens.

Art

Patience, wise Yoda!
It will happen for you big boys too!

Just let the small ones play in the sandbox for now.

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post #30 of 46 Old 05-06-2008, 09:39 AM
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"Which "efficiency" is actually "duty cycle"?"

Where you said efficiency was 33% because they were on for 1/3 of the time.

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