First Pics from the new JVC HD 350/JV HD 750 and specifications - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 06:45 PM
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miller/dvectord,

Thanks so much for the great write ups on the show. I'm definately excited about the rs20 and its great to hear some comparisons against everything else.

Thanks!

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post #362 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip3kx07 View Post

dvectord,

My question for you is...Can you comments anymore on how they compare. Sounds like the Epson does a better job with blacks, in Jason's review of the HW10 he noted that the sharpness of the HW10 was the best he has seen compared to similar technology's. Was the HW10 sharper then the Epson?

You are welcome!

I saw those two probably 5 minutes apart at the end and also saw them twice each. I really liked both very much --- better than many with higher msrp. I would say that every projector had similar sharpness with the exception of the rs2. My first WOW factor was seeing the sony with their bright demo loop. I obviously can't be certain, but I would be willing to bet that the epson would look just as good with that pristine source material.

Is about 10% better blacks worth $500 to you?
I am very confident that you would love the sony --- the blacks are still way better than the sony hs51.
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post #363 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

I don't post often so I know these rankings may not mean all that much to some people --- but I just wanted to give back a little to the forum that I so much enjoy reading!

Nice summary, thanks for taking the time to post. It's always good to hear opinions from other that don't post very much. If JVC was the only company showing Angelina Jolie in body paint and in 3D then the other manufacturers are sorely source limited


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post #364 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

You are welcome!

I saw those two probably 5 minutes apart at the end and also saw them twice each. I really liked both very much --- better than many with higher msrp. I would say that every projector had similar sharpness with the exception of the rs2. My first WOW factor was seeing the sony with their bright demo loop. I obviously can't be certain, but I would be willing to bet that the epson would look just as good with that pristine source material.

Is about 10% better blacks worth $500 to you?
I am very confident that you would love the sony --- the blacks are still way better than the sony hs51.

Worth $500 more for 10% better black? I would say maybe... well um yes.

But if I also factor in the Epson can do 120hz with there fine frame technology, the 7500 will use the Reon chip with anamorphic lens scaling, and is rated at 1600 lumens. I think I just found my next projector.
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post #365 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Nice summary, thanks for taking the time to post. It's always good to hear opinions from other that don't post very much. If JVC was the only company showing Angelina Jolie in body paint and in 3D then the other manufacturers are sorely source limited


was that Jolie in that segment... it almost looked like CGI to me... ? what movie was that 3D demo using??

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post #366 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tzucc View Post

was that Jolie in that segment... it almost looked like CGI to me... ? what movie was that 3D demo using??

I asked about that source material and I was told that Hollywood was starting to move in that direction and we might see source material in about a year. My wife identified her as Jolie, she is much better with names.

The 3d projector was two rs2's with some lens modification.
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post #367 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 07:59 PM
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I wonder if the Epson would be an upgrade over my RS1.

I'd like more accurate colors and higher brightness.

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post #368 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

From the bottom to the top.

Level 0: My current sony 720p hs-51 (on a dim bulb)
Level 1: (about $500 better) epson home 1080 home ensemble (not 1080 UB)
Level 2: (about $500 better) marantz 11s2, sony hw-70, mits 7000 (mits some ambient light)
Level 3: (about 500-1000 better) sony hw-10, planar 8150
Level 4: (about 500-1000 better) epson 7500ub (better colors, sharper), jvc rs2 (better blacks)
Level 5: about (500-1000 better) the champion --> jvc rs-20 (basically a fixed rs2 with better colors and sharper or an epson with maybe 10% better blacks)

You substantially preferred the Epson 7500 over the Marantz. Why?

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post #369 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You substantially preferred the Epson 7500 over the Marantz. Why?

It is hard to say. It could be that my expectations were so high for the Marantz that it affected my opinion. The demo guy was touting this new coating on the lens that supposedly ups the ansi contrast to 1000. I was expecting this large dlp pop in bright scenes and it just never happened for me. They showed a transformers clip and it was very good, sharp, pretty good blacks, no blurring... just nothing really stood out to me.

With the epson and the jvcs, the blacks really stood out to me.
With the cheaper sony, the bright scenes really stood out.

I really thought that the marantz might be the projector I purchased because my understanding is that it should shine in sports. I wish they had demoed some sports clips.

I don't have any one specific bad thing to say about the Marantz but nothing really separated it from the pack in my eyes.

For what it is worth, my wife also told me she preferred the Epson and JVCs over the marantz before I shared my opinion ---- granted she is no expert either.

If you haven't seen the epson yet, I think you might be impressed.
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post #370 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 09:51 PM
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Speaking of ANSI contrast: did anyone else notice the claims of 1000:1 ANSI contrast for the new Mitsubishi HC7000 LCD projector?

Rich H


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post #371 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 10:12 PM
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Just remember, the RS20 was on a 92" wide screen. The Marantz was projecting on, I believe, a 10 ft wide screen through an Isco. Trust me, the Marantz is sharper. JVC has made some nice improvements in the sharpness compared to what I remember from the RS1. The Marantz projects the most 3D picture that I have seen, and that includes the high end 3-chippers, with the exception of maybe the Wolf.
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post #372 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 10:16 PM
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Millerwill - thanks for the great following posts and all the info. It is truly great to hear that you took great notice of no hints of bright corners, especially given the room was pitch dark.

Glad the colors and brightness looked uniform. It would have been ideal if there was an opportunity to view a full gray field or even a 100 IRE patterns - that's the best way to notice any color uniformity issues.

Did anyone hear a mention of what ANSI CR to expect from the RS20? Several of us measured about 300-320:1 on the RS1. I hope they have managed to bring it up to at least 500:1 but that may be wishful thinking. But given they have redone the light engine ya never know.

Yes indeed this pj is sounding very interesting...
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post #373 of 3703 Old 09-06-2008, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

Just remember, the RS20 was on a 92" wide screen. The Marantz was projecting on, I believe, a 10 ft wide screen through an Isco. Trust me, the Marantz is sharper. JVC has made some nice improvements in the sharpness compared to what I remember from the RS1. The Marantz projects the most 3D picture that I have seen, and that includes the high end 3-chippers, with the exception of maybe the Wolf.

Yes, Marantz was certainly 2.35.
I did not take special notice of screen sizes or gains --- it is quite possible that the Marantz was using a larger screen. The JVC 4K screen size was crazy large.

I'll concede that if I had seen a larger variety of source material then maybe it would have impressed me more.

I can't really think of anything else to add about the Marantz.
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post #374 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 01:02 AM
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Remember that the optical engineer mlang46 theorized that lasers could/should give better ANSI for d-ila. I doubt d-ila will crawl beyond 350 as it is today.
Lcos technology is dependent on sophisticated and automated factory calibration to get good uniformity. That is why we will see some units that are not "perfect". However things seem to move in the right direction.

Is the 1000 ANSI cr for 11s2 credible or is that a marketing card they are trying to play. They could say ANSI is hard to measure correctly. Sharp has measured 800 ANSI so I guess it is within reach.

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post #375 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Speaking of ANSI contrast: did anyone else notice the claims of 1000:1 ANSI contrast for the new Mitsubishi HC7000 LCD projector?

Really! Where have you seen this?
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post #376 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post


Although I FULLY realize that all variables were not properly controlled, I produced a ranking anyway. Again for my own purchasing decisions, I ranked them in levels of what I perceived to be a $500-$1000 increase in picture quality (maybe 10% increase in picture quality), not msrp.

Drum-roll please ....

From the bottom to the top.

Level 0: My current sony 720p hs-51 (on a dim bulb)
Level 1: (about $500 better) epson home 1080 home ensemble (not 1080 UB)
Level 2: (about $500 better) marantz 11s2, sony hw-70, mits 7000 (mits some ambient light)
Level 3: (about 500-1000 better) sony hw-10, planar 8150
Level 4: (about 500-1000 better) epson 7500ub (better colors, sharper), jvc rs2 (better blacks)
Level 5: about (500-1000 better) the champion --> jvc rs-20 (basically a fixed rs2 with better colors and sharper or an epson with maybe 10% better blacks)

So I just got in from CEDIA. And I would have to agree with a lot of your assesment, with a few exceptions. I thought the epson pro cinema 7500UB was one of the biggest disappointments of the show. Which is sad because their staff is outstanding, and Kevin was extremely helpful and knowledgeable. I think the RS20 was the projector of the show, although I didn't have a chance to see the Sammy or Marantz which I hear are stunners.

I took notes after every presentation and I had separate categories for Brightness, Sharpness, Contrast, and overall PQ already printed out and ready to go. Here are my impressions. I strongly encourage people to take this with the grain of salt, as many of these units surely were not final, and probably not even calibrated correctly. I'll attempt to list them in order of importance.

Sim 2 C3X 1080/Host: Man this thing is a torch! Bright, crisp, color saturation was the best I've seen for DLP (although I preferred the RS20 in this regard). The highlight of the demo was HD movies encoded at 45mb mbps, as opposed to blu-rays 19-20mbps. Extremely impressive.

Brightness: 9
Sharpness: 8.5
Contrast: 6.5
Overall PQ: 8.5

JVC RS20: This was the highlight of the show. I spent a good 30 minutes in awe, I haven't been wowed by a projector like this in all my years of home AV. This isn't a lateral upgrade from and RS2, and the difference in brightness and sharpness is not subtle. This is a full step up from the RS2. The 25% increase in brightness and new optics are extremely noticeable. Colors have more pop, the picture is noticeably sharper, and black bars blend into the light controlled room.They had the RS2 and RS20 demo rooms side by side. So i kept going back and forth.. but I stayed put in the RS20 room for a good half hour if that says anything. This is the upgrade RS1/RS2 owners have been waiting for imho, and it's my next projector. It's amazing to see the colors in dark scenes pop off the screen over a pitch black backdrop! Just gorgeous. And here's the kicker, I got to play with the RS20 for a bit and JVC was using the PS3 with a cheapo nyko remote control as the source! And the PQ was stunning! LOL

Brightness: 8
Sharpness: 8.5
Contrast: 8.5
Overall PQ: 9

JVC RS2: What can I say, this is still a favorite. And JVC had it well calibrated. Although the RS2 is too dim for my tastes, it still produces a great film like picture. Did I mention how much I love the RS20?

Brightness: 6.5
Sharpness: 7.5
Contrast: 8
Overall PQ: 8

Sony HW70: A bit underwhelming, it was just OK. I saw this unit after the RS20 demo and well, it just couldn't measure up in any category.

Brightness: 7
Sharpness: 7
Contrast: 7
Overall PQ: 7

Sony W10: This is a tricky one. Originally the Sony rep was using HD video material, and it looked ok. Fairly bright, and sharpness was just ok. Contrast was nothing to write home about. I asked the Sony rep to indulge me with some film material on blu-ray, and he did! He fired up Ghost Rider and well... it looked like crap. Muddy, with blue push. Didn't care for it at all. Sorry sony.

Brightness: 7.5
Sharpness: 7
Contrast: 6
Overall PQ: 6

Mitsubishi HC7000
Not a very good demo, there was a bit of ambient light and I was certain the projector could do better. Blue push right off the bat. I would take this one with the grain of salt. Again, this only reflects a CEDIA demo and will probably be much better when it's finally released.

Brightness: 6.5
Sharpness 7.5
Contrast: 7
Overall PQ: 7

Epson Pro Cinema 7500UB: This was the biggest disappointment of the show for me. Ken and the rest of the Epson staff were so great and knowledgable, it was just a painful demo to sit through. The sad thing is, it was probably calibrated correctly because these guys know their stuff. They were running harry potter on blu-ray and the opening ceremony for the olympics in HD off DVR. This unit had more in common with cheaper Sony W10 than other projectors at the same price point. Contrast was just ok (despite 75,000:1 rating) and the picture had no punch in dark scenes.

Brightness: 7
Sharpness: 7
Contrast: 6.5
Overall PQ: 6.5

That's all I have for now. I said it before and I'll say it again, take these impressions with the grain of salt. I have a very good eye, and I came prepared with plenty of notes! But after all, these are CEDIA demos and may not be calibrated, or even reflective of the final hardware for that matter.

But I can say this, the RS20 I saw is ready for prime time. I can't imagine the PQ getting any better. Seeing the blu-ray demo of Hellboy 2... with those bright golden structures superimposed over a pitch black backdrop... brought a tear to my eye. Talk about wow factor. It is difficult to contain my enthusiasm. Let me put it this way. While I was taking notes, a JVC dealer walked into the RS20 demo room, and with a stunned look on his face said, "Sh*t, I have an RS2 in my showroom and I better sell it...QUICK!"

"Now a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it.."
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post #377 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

But I can say this, the RS20 I saw is ready for prime time. I can't imagine the PQ getting any better.

Then why don't I see a single 10 on your evaluation?
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post #378 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

And here's the kicker, I got to play with the RS20 for a bit and JVC was using the PS3 with a cheapo nyko remote control as the source! And the PQ was stunning! LOL

Tee hee.
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post #379 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 05:05 AM
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dvectord, AlexBPM: Great to read your reports! I'm sufficiently novice at all this that I don't fully trust all my impressions, so it was very good to hear your take. I do hope that Jason can get us a good deal on the RS20!
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post #380 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

So I just got in from CEDIA. And I would have to agree with a lot of your assesment, with a few exceptions. I thought the epson pro cinema 7500UB was one of the biggest disappointments of the show. Which is sad because their staff is outstanding, and Kevin was extremely helpful and knowledgeable. I think the RS20 was the projector of the show, although I didn't have a chance to see the Sammy or Marantz which I hear are stunners.

I took notes after every presentation and I had separate categories for Brightness, Sharpness, Contrast, and overall PQ already printed out and ready to go. Here are my impressions. I strongly encourage people to take this with the grain of salt, as many of these units surely were not final, and probably not even calibrated correctly. I'll attempt to list them in order of importance.

JVC RS20: This was the highlight of the show. I spent a good 30 minutes in awe, I haven't been wowed by a projector like this in all my years of home AV. This isn't a lateral upgrade from and RS2, and the difference in brightness and sharpness is not subtle. This is a full step up from the RS2. The 25% increase in brightness and new optics are extremely noticeable. Colors have more pop, the picture is noticeably sharper, and black bars blend into the light controlled room.They had the RS2 and RS20 demo rooms side by side. So i kept going back and forth.. but I stayed put in the RS20 room for a good half hour if that says anything. This is the upgrade RS1/RS2 owners have been waiting for imho, and it's my next projector. It's amazing to see the colors in dark scenes pop off the screen over a pitch black backdrop! Just gorgeous. And here's the kicker, I got to play with the RS20 for a bit and JVC was using the PS3 with a cheapo nyko remote control as the source! And the PQ was stunning! LOL

Brightness: 8
Sharpness: 8.5
Contrast: 8.5
Overall PQ: 9

AlexBPM thanks for the highly informative observations. I too await the RS20 with great anticipation. I'm not sure what the official Australian price will be but I'm guessing it will be somewhere in the vicinity of $12.000AUD.

Cheers

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post #381 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Then why don't I see a single 10 on your evaluation?

Because I'm thinking AlexBPM is being conservative and realistic and believes like most reasonable AV enthusiasts that nothing in this game is perfect

As suggested by some here the RS20's being observed at CEDIA could possibly be early engineering samples (i.e Prototypes) and changes/tweaks will almost certainly be made prior to full scale production. Mind you that is but pure conjecture on my part.

AlexBPM I give your CEDIA report an official 10!

Cheers

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post #382 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 07:02 AM
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I hope the JVCs perform as well on a 10ft wide screen with a gain of 2.0 as they did on that 92". Did anyone happen to catch the gain of the screen it was being displayed on?

Also, I'm curious why there isn't anyone considering the RS10? Is a difference of around $2200 street really worth slightly better contrast and a CMS to everyone here? That's a difference of about 50% of the RS10's price. It's also within a few hundred of what the Sony will end up going for just by itself. If the RS20 is so superior to all the other projectors at the show, then I'll bet the RS10 will compare quite favorably as well. To me that seems like the best value, although I'm still considering the Sony for a savings of yet another $1000.
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post #383 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 07:19 AM
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I would say that, based on estimated street prices, you'll end up spending 35% to 40% more on an RS20 over an RS10. One of the biggest complaints about the RS1 and RS2 were the uncorrectable, oversaturated gamut. The RS10 and RS20 still have a comparably large gamut, but with the RS20 it's internally correctable - you can even be lazy and just use the THX mode which sounds like it should be pretty close to D65/REC709 out of the box. Throw in the fact that the CR is double that of the RS10, and for me personally (and I would guess a lot of people who have shown interest the new JVCs), that 33% extra becomes money well spent, especially when you consider all the other great features and overall performance of the projector at that price point.

For those who already have a VP with a built-in CMS, I could see the RS10 being a better value than the RS20.

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post #384 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 07:35 AM
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I would say that, based on estimated street prices, you'll end up spending 35% to 40% more on an RS20 over an RS10. One of the biggest complaints about the RS1 and RS2 were the uncorrectable, oversaturated gamut. The RS10 and RS20 still have a comparably large gamut, but with the RS20 it's internally correctable - you can even be lazy and just use the THX mode which sounds like it should be pretty close to D65/REC709 out of the box. Throw in the fact that the CR is double that of the RS10, and for me personally (and I would guess a lot of people who have shown interest the new JVCs), that 33% extra becomes money well spent, especially when you consider all the other great features and overall performance of the projector at that price point.

For those who already have a VP with a built-in CMS, I could see the RS10 being a better value than the RS20.

Was the RS10 on display at CEDIA?
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post #385 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 08:02 AM
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Thanks to everyone who has posted their opinion on every projector seen, kudos to all of you much appreciated.

I just wish the RS20 was shown on a MUCH larger screen and not a 92" one.

I have an RS1 and for crying out loud it's paired up with a 150" width (not diagonal) CinemaScope high powered DA-LITE so I was "extremely" hoping for reviews on this PJ on a larger screen :-(

Now I'm hoping for cine4home to excell on this PJ with a much larger setup.

Btw, the RS1 shines on my screen & yes it's bright enough, I was sorry when I got it & didn't go bigger. Initially I wanted a 170" width CinemaScope & I think the RS1 should have performed well.

The only problem I see now for the RS20, at least for me anyway, is that if I get it I will be forced to upgrade to the larger 170" screen I I initially wanted given the much higher lumens it offers so a lot more to spend ARGH!!!!!!!

Cheers
Chris

Sony VPL-VW500ES, 150" width 2.35:1 screen, Proud owner of 1 of 399 Enzo Ferrari's in the world, a gorgeous yellow Ferrari 599GTB, + a 1970 Road Runner see it
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post #386 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 08:05 AM
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I spent a while (well, really a long while) at the JVC offsite location. In one of several discussions I had with the JVC staff, it was mentioned that several process improvements has resulted in a considerable drop in manufacturing costs for the DILA line. This combined with a sales volume well above initial projections for the RS-n line is what led to the reduced pricing for the new projectors.

The RS20 throws a fantastic image, with plenty of light on the screen. BTW, the RS20 demo was using low lamp mode, not high.

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post #387 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 08:13 AM
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Just got back from CEDIA. Went to see the RS20 on three separate occasions (once each day). Tom Stites was as cordial as ever and a joy to talk to.

I received a short demo of the 16 step iris. It's a menu selected item. Pretty cool. As you step down - the image becomes less bright (of course) and the contrast apparently increases. So yes - it can do better than 30000:1 if your set-up is such that less brightness is acceptable. I was told by the way that w/ iris fully open (as displayed) the 1.3 92" wide screens' brightness was measured at 15 FL. It seemed much brighter than that to me. And it was on low bulb. Brighter than my RS1 anyway. But then I have 900 hours on my bulb.

The thing I like about the adjustable iris is when your bulb is new - you can step down 6-8 clicks (or more) and take advantage of increased contrast. Then as your bulb ages (if you like) - start slowly opening the iris back up. I think it's a great feature.

Another note. Even though we were one mile high in elevation - the RS20 was on low fan - and the projector was running very cool (newly designed side exhaust port). And fan noise was barely noticeable (volume off and nobody in the booth).

Seems w/ the RS20 - JVC has given us just about everything we have asked for. What are we still missing?

Anxious to see what Ekkehart thinks.
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post #388 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

Thanks to everyone who has posted their opinion on every projector seen, kudos to all of you much appreciated.

I just wish the RS20 was shown on a MUCH larger screen and not a 92" one.

I have an RS1 and for crying out loud it's paired up with a 150" width (not diagonal) CinemaScope high powered DA-LITE so I was "extremely" hoping for reviews on this PJ on a larger screen :-(

Now I'm hoping for cine4home to excell on this PJ with a much larger setup.

Btw, the RS1 shines on my screen & yes it's bright enough, I was sorry when I got it & didn't go bigger. Initially I wanted a 170" width CinemaScope & I think the RS1 should have performed well.

The only problem I see now for the RS20, at least for me anyway, is that if I get it I will be forced to upgrade to the larger 170" screen I I initially wanted given the much higher lumens it offers so a lot more to spend ARGH!!!!!!!

Actually, the recent crop of 1080p PJs are more similar in performance than we tend to argue about. To me, the biggest improvement was to go to 12' wide HP screen. I just sold my AE2000, but the Pana was plenty bright on the 159" HP, and compared with VW60 did not lack for much.

My next set-up is likely 15' wide HP scope. Size matters
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post #389 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 09:31 AM
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I haven't posted in this area of the forum for quite some time since I am so incredibly happy with my HT-380, but I just had to read about the new offerings being shown at CEDIA. After reading this thread, it looks like JVC has very possibly designed a truly great product. With increased brightness, a full CMS!!!, accurate color presets, a better lens, and a stepped iris arrangement, I may consider buying another JVC again. My plan was to wait for a lampless tech PJ, but if the RS20 looks as good as it has been described, then I might be tempted to buy one. This time I will make sure to see one before buying, though...

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post #390 of 3703 Old 09-07-2008, 09:37 AM
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Hi Bob. Good to have you back in a JVC thread again (I think ...)
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