First Pics from the new JVC HD 350/JV HD 750 and specifications - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 03:57 PM
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Thanks D. I am more or less fine. I am happy except when my wife yells at me. This does seem to be happening more amd more. But I attribute it to her and not me growing older.

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post #722 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I think the RS20 raises the JVC bar somewhat incrementaly rather than something to rave about. Many qualified observers liked the machine and ranked it as the best they saw at or near the price point. There were close seconds two and some ranked the machine 2nd. ts very subjective based on show observations. In any event the machine is not leaps and bounds better than say the rs2. If one had an external Cms, the fact that the new one has it built in is not significant. it is important if you don't already have an external CMS and you value color accuracy, as one should. But to many the innacurracies of the old made no difference. Some actually preferred the inaccuracies. The lens is better. To me very important but so many thought the old lens was just fine. I think the proto we saw at the show had a better lens. Sharper certainly but not by quantum levels. MTF. I have no idea. Better more efficient optical path. Yes. A meaningful overall improvement Yes. And I would sell my RS2 and buy an RS20 if I owned an RS2. But rant and rave over the level of improvement? No. There was no quantum jump in performane like the RS1 was or even the RS2 over the RS1. Just making it worthwhile better. Kind of hard to ask for more without a technology break through. Noticeable and needed refinements. Yes. And JVC is to be thanked more than be congratulated. I liked the machine and think it is good value. based on what i saw, it removed my disqualifying weaknesses of the RS2. But no rant. They fixed what needed to be fixed and made the machine overal and noticeably better.

I have been ranting and raving about this projector because I believe I saw a dramatic improvement in intrascene contrast. I attribute this improvement to the increased quality of the new lens which has a better anti-reflection coatings.

I am not a fan of ANSI contrast but it is an indicator of intrascene contrast and if the ANSI contrast has improved dramatically to the point that it approaches that of a DLP 500:/1 or better, than I will be more confident that my first impressions were correct.
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post #723 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:10 PM
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Could be. I just don't know yet. They switched lens manufacturers. There are still working with the new one to make it even better.

Mlang you know your optical stuff. I defer to your judgment. Your opinion and observational skills mean a lot in my book

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post #724 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The first HP calculators were in 1967, just as I was graduating RPI with two slide rules. Price was about $625 abd it had a punch card reader if I remember correctly, In 1971, Casio had a $10 scientific calculator that did everything the early HPs did. If I had that sucker in 1963, I estimate I could have graduated 9 months quicker.

Now my first projector was by theater vision. A big lens in a box holding a small CRT television. Then came those early three tube zenith projectors with hardly any geometry or convergence controls. Did have 3 G2 pots and three drive pots. There were big main frames in every engineering college back in those days. You had to type your programs on punch cards and then run them through a smaller computer before feeding them to the main frame. Hugh tape drives in those days. Ugh.

Well, I'm glad I didn't get hooked on HT until ~ 2-3 yrs ago (RS1 being my first pj); sounds like it must have been masochistic back then!
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post #725 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:13 PM
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No. It was good then but flawed. The RS2 was better but still flawed. JVC listened and removed the flaws.

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post #726 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. It was good then but flawed. The RS2 was better but still flawed. JVC listened and removed the flaws.

The reason I'm on Jason's list for a RS20.
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post #727 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

Exactly, you understood me very well

Regards,
Ekkehart

Okay the cats out of the bag then 800-100 lumens with 30,000:1-50,000:1 contrast at those end points. Impressive.
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post #728 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:30 PM
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That's 800 lumens on the high bulb setting, correct?

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #729 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

That's 800 lumens on the high bulb setting, correct?

I assume so (high bulb, min throw, max aperture). The 100 lumen is probably high bulb, max throw, min apertue.
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post #730 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:35 PM
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No only 798. My point. Until we get production samples we won't no anything for sure. As the ANSI drop, the CR will increase. The machine has good on/off amd should be plentu bright with good contrast on modest size and gain screens.

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post #731 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

That's 800 lumens on the high bulb setting, correct?

And remember that high lamp mode in the RS20 is quieter than low lamp mode for the RS1.
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post #732 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Okay the cats out of the bag then 800-100 lumens with 30,000:1-50,000:1 contrast at those end points. Impressive.

Yes. Very nice.

I suspect I would close that Iris up significantly, still have decent lumens and contrast that can't be beat.

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post #733 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Yes. Very nice.

I suspect I would close that Iris up significantly, still have decent lumens and contrast that can't be beat.

As Darin said, the properties of the (high gain) HP screen make this an increasing possibility (provided ones configuration is optimal for the HP).
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post #734 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 06:02 PM
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Its still a real head scratcher as to why JVC would only advertise 30,000:1 if thats at 800 lumens. I see why they wouldn't be sneaky with 50,000:1.... but still, why sell yourself so short?
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post #735 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Its still a real head scratcher as to why JVC would only advertise 30,000:1 if thats at 800 lumens. I see why they wouldn't be sneaky with 50,000:1.... but still, why sell yourself so short?

As someone has said above, it may very well be like the RS1, the specs of which were increased before the final version actually came to market. The RS20 we have seen, and is announced, is still working out the final specifics; we may see different specs when it is finally released.
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post #736 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

As someone has said above, it may very well be like the RS1, the specs of which were increased before the final version actually came to market. The RS20 we have seen, and is announced, is still working out the final specifics; we may see different specs when it is finally released.

Gotta give them credit for being so conservative about their specs.... I wish Cine4home would spill the beans already.
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post #737 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 07:45 PM
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The adjustable iris on the new JVC does make a Da lite high-power screen an intriguing combo, as it would seem you can maximise contrast (higher light return enabling shutting down the iris more).

My projector will be approximately screen height so the Da lite would work for me. That said, I'm a stickler for black levels and even illumination (I don't like the picture to change much as I move off-axis). So I've been figuring on using the Carada Brilliant White screen material with the RS20.
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post #738 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 08:07 PM
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BTW,

This question is probably best aimed at mlang46, but perhaps others can answer as well: When closing down an aperture there is a point where the lens can become "diffraction limited" which results in lower resolution.

I'd be curious at what point, if at all, this problem might make itself known in a projector like the RS20, for those who are trying to close the aperture for maximum contrast.
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post #739 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The adjustable iris on the new JVC does make a Da lite high-power screen an intriguing combo, as it would seem you can maximise contrast (higher light return enabling shutting down the iris more).

My projector will be approximately screen height so the Da lite would work for me. That said, I'm a stickler for black levels and even illumination (I don't like the picture to change much as I move off-axis). So I've been figuring on using the Carada Brilliant White screen material with the RS20.

It's a great screen that works for its own purpose. But I was really hoping that this was going to be the year manufacturers would be pushing higher lumens to its limits, sort of a last hurrah, before laser-driven projectors enter the market. From reading more in these threads, optical redesigning and tweaking process seem to be showing plenty more room for improvement in this area.

I was thinking of avoiding the highpower b/c of the limited viewing angle (preferring a wider seating arrangement in my room) and stick to a more neutral screen, in the hopes that the screen of choice will last for awhile and be more suiteable for the next technology as well.
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post #740 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No only 798. My point. Until we get production samples we won't no anything for sure. As the ANSI drop, the CR will increase. The machine has good on/off amd should be plentu bright with good contrast on modest size and gain screens.

I think Ekkehart has mentioned that the optical block is finished so those numbers should be representative of manufacturered units although manufacturing tolerances will cause variance for everyone. I'm not sure that it's always the case that as ANSI lumens drops that CR will increase. The different bulb settings in my RS1 will yield roughly similar contrasts but the lumens are different. An iris aperture will yield the result you're describing though so it really depends on the nature of the changes that cause the lumens to change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Harkness View Post

This question is probably best aimed at mlang46, but perhaps others can answer as well: When closing down an aperture there is a point where the lens can become "diffraction limited" which results in lower resolution.

I'd be curious at what point, if at all, this problem might make itself known in a projector like the RS20, for those who are trying to close the aperture for maximum contrast.

mlang is much more qualified than I to talk about this one but this sort of thing comes up a lot in astronomy (a hobby of mine) where it's referred to as an airy disk. The aperture in the RS20 won't come close to causing noticeable diffraction because it's much larger than the wavelength of light.

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The adjustable iris on the new JVC does make a Da lite high-power screen an intriguing combo, as it would seem you can maximise contrast (higher light return enabling shutting down the iris more).

Intriguing indeed. I've always preferred lower gain screens and this does present an interesting tradeoff. I assume 1-chip DLP users are used to this sort of tradeoff though.
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post #741 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Okay the cats out of the bag then 800-100 lumens with 30,000:1-50,000:1 contrast at those end points. Impressive.

What are you waiting for, Mark? Go and start the Official RS20 thread!
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post #742 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ximori View Post

What are you waiting for, Mark? Go and start the Official RS20 thread!

I'll wait until I get an actual RS20 in my grubby little hands (or let someone else start the thread once they get theirs).
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post #743 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBPM View Post

You're right.. seeing is believing. And the RS20 was the most jaw dropping projector I saw at the show. Simply stunning, I'd take it over a top of the line DLP any day. Deepest blacks I have ever seen superimposed with incredible sharpness and color depth that simply jumps off the screen. I dont care what the final number are, the RS20 is MINE

btw, what trailers or movies were they showing at the demo?
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post #744 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 10:50 PM
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This really does sound like it must be my next projector, coming from a 9 inch CRT and moving onto a 1080p Dlp I just never seemed to get that sense of realism, (contrast 3 d effect) that I had with the CRT. I hope this unit delivers exactly what everyone is talking about. Three chip DLPs are overpriced in my opinion, and don't offer the elements that I need for ultimate viewing satisfaction. Is there an AVS power buy on these units?

Thanks,

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post #745 of 3703 Old 09-13-2008, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Its still a real head scratcher as to why JVC would only advertise 30,000:1 if thats at 800 lumens. I see why they wouldn't be sneaky with 50,000:1.... but still, why sell yourself so short?

Perhaps they are waiting for more data points. They take their specs seriously. I'd rather improve or add specs later, rather than disappoint later, but what do I know?

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post #746 of 3703 Old 09-14-2008, 01:08 AM
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"I'm a stickler for black levels and even illumination (I don't like the picture to change much as I move off-axis)"

Those are, or can be, two different things, as in the case of the Dalite Hipower, which dims off axis but maintains excellent brightness uniformity except in certain extreme combinations of pj and viewing positions.

Noah
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post #747 of 3703 Old 09-14-2008, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post

It's a great screen that works for its own purpose. But I was really hoping that this was going to be the year manufacturers would be pushing higher lumens to its limits, sort of a last hurrah, before laser-driven projectors enter the market. From reading more in these threads, optical redesigning and tweaking process seem to be showing plenty more room for improvement in this area.

I was thinking of avoiding the highpower b/c of the limited viewing angle (preferring a wider seating arrangement in my room) and stick to a more neutral screen, in the hopes that the screen of choice will last for awhile and be more suiteable for the next technology as well.

If the HP wasn't ideal for me--e.g., if I had a wide seating configuration, outside the sides of the screen--I think the Carada BW (1.3 gain) would be my choice; many happy owners of it here on the Forum. [Since I don't have wide seating locations, I really wanted the retro-reflective, narrower viewing cone of the HP, in order to minimize reflection from side walls and ceiling.]
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post #748 of 3703 Old 09-14-2008, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The adjustable iris on the new JVC does make a Da lite high-power screen an intriguing combo, as it would seem you can maximise contrast (higher light return enabling shutting down the iris more).

My projector will be approximately screen height so the Da lite would work for me. That said, I'm a stickler for black levels and even illumination (I don't like the picture to change much as I move off-axis). So I've been figuring on using the Carada Brilliant White screen material with the RS20.

Rich, as I'm sure you appreciate, the high gain of the HP raises both BL and WL, keeping the ratio (CR, which is a property of the pj, not the screen) unchanged. So if you close down the aperture the result is the same as using a lower gain screen--except that you (may) get higher CR from the pj.
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post #749 of 3703 Old 09-14-2008, 05:27 AM
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I doubt very much that the lens used in the new RSs is one that was specially developed for JVC. Even the what are considered excellent quality Marantz lenses are off the shelf lenses.

I understand this to be true because lens development costs are extremely high. Thus, the cost of developing one for a specific projector would never be recouped in the low volume projector business (unless the projectors cost an arm and a leg).

It is likely that JVC shopped around for an off the shelf lens that met its needs. Perhaps they even have the manufacturer tweak it a little.

I am still skeptical that a new lens will have a very dramatic effect, at least on sharpness, if you have a good RS1/RS2. Now whether the new optical path and lens increases MTF, that is something else altogether.

On another note, I wonder what it is about the new design of the RSs that saves costs over the old one?

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post #750 of 3703 Old 09-14-2008, 05:35 AM
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The answer might be in improved coatings and some tweaking. Remember that Marantz has claimed 1000:1 ANSI from their 11s2 attributing this to improved lens coatings.

Mattias Ohlson
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