Sony VPL-HW10 Just Arrived! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

What does this mean?

It sounds like the expression of a fear many have regarding professional reviewers, whether they be reviewing HT products, Sports Cars, Carpet Steam Cleaners, or Hunting Rifles.

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post #632 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

It sounds like the expression of a fear many have regarding professional reviewers, whether they be reviewing HT products, Sports Cars, Carpet Steam Cleaners, or Hunting Rifles.

I'm afraid it sounds more like you and HHF are still fighting WWII, along with the Aussie.
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post #633 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I'm afraid it sounds more like you and HHF are still fighting WWII, along with the Aussie.

What did I post that would lead you to that conclusion
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post #634 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

What does this mean?

Not sure what kind of answer you are looking for?
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post #635 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Not sure what kind of answer you are looking for?


It seems like you are suggesting some motive for what is going on in Germany. Please elaborate unless you are just speculating.

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post #636 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I'm afraid it sounds more like you and HHF are still fighting WWII, along with the Aussie.

Totally uncalled for, and downright disrespectful. Please take your rhetoric elsewhere and let the conversation stay focused on the discussion at hand...


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post #637 of 845 Old 12-11-2008, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kepople View Post

I bought the Mono Price mount for up to 22#''s and see that this projector weighs 22#'s so I am thinking I need the heavier duty one. Opinon?

WHat mount should I really use with my new HW10?

THanks
kirby


I bought a Chief RPU, and it seems to perform very well. I just need to adjust the almu which connects directly to the projector.


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post #638 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

1st... any info posted here would be forwarded by me to my Sony contacts, which while not the same as getting Sony Germany involved, could be helpful.

Look, I don't want to restart the whole discussion. I just wanted to ask whether you have any news, since you reported earlier that Sony was investigating the (possible, not proven yet) issue.

IMHO the main problem is that Ekki tried to report the problems to Sony Germany and didn't get any useful feedback or any interest in his report at all. Let me remind you that the Sony representative told him that in his opinion Sony should stop doing front projection at all. So IMHO you have it backwards saying that Ekki did the wrong communication. He tried using the proper communication channels and failed (miserably). But as I said, I don't want to restart the discussion. So let's keep it at that.

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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I suspect that some German online retailers are upset that Sony is no longer providing significant monetary "marketing support" such as compensating for review "translations"!

And I suspect that you have no clue what you're talking about. There are some people who deserve some credit and respect for what they have done (and are still doing) for home cinema consumers like you and me. But I don't want to fight with you. If you think it is necessary to throw dirt on an extremely well respected projector reviewer just because he has reported a potential problem with your favourite manufacturer then by all means I won't stop you.
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post #639 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Look, I don't want to restart the whole discussion.

An observation if I may... I thought your attempt at trying to "not start the whole discussion", while rehashing the same old info and adding the little (possible, not proven yet) comment, was a special touch. Touche!

Thanks also for adding in the new info regarding a Sony rep saying the company should get out of the projector business. Just for the record, is that comment part of the old discussion we don't want to restart or have we started a new bash Sony discussion?

Wait, that is part of the old discussion, right? I'm pretty sure I remember posting a Sony link regarding their plans to get out of the business, which was actually an attempt at humor, because the link demonstrated how deep Sony is into projector development. Sorry, my bad, that was part of the old discussion, but we're done.

Whew! I'm glad this is over. Thanks.

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post #640 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 01:40 AM
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Wow. I'm out of here. Sorry for asking whether there was any news about Sony's investigation. My fault. Will not do that again...
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post #641 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

And I suspect that you have no clue what you're talking about. There are some people who deserve some credit and respect for what they have done (and are still doing) for home cinema consumers like you and me. But I don't want to fight with you. If you think it is necessary to throw dirt on an extremely well respected projector reviewer just because he has reported a potential problem with your favourite manufacturer then by all means I won't stop you.

Agreed. I don't know exactly who the comment was direct at (presumably Ekkehart) but I don't think it is right to smear someone through innuendo. If there is anything to report, it should be said directly.

Ekkehart deserves the benefit of any doubt IMO on the things he reports. Why? Because he has been doing comprehensive reviews for years and has CREDIBILITY, which he has earned.

He reported certain facts, both with a sample of projectors that he has conducted measurements on (How many different projectors do you critics perform measurements on? More or less than Ekki?) and with Sony's response to his report on those measurements. Are people saying that the projectors did not measure, or that Sony did not respond as Ekkehart reports? What part is not true?

I suspect that no one will ever answer these questions that I have raised.

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post #642 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Bytehoven
Thanks also for adding in the new info regarding a Sony rep saying the company should get out of the projector business. Just for the record, is that comment part of the old discussion we don't want to restart or have we started a new bash Sony discussion?

+1 Exactly what I was thinking...

Why are people ignoring the fact that the AVS sales people have been dealing with Sony SXRD projectors for years. Surely they would be honest with us.... for some reason this reviewer in Germany has more merit...

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post #643 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

+1 Exactly what I was thinking...

Why are people ignoring the fact that the AVS sales people have been dealing with Sony SXRD projectors for years. Surely they would be honest with us.... for some reason this reviewer in Germany has more merit...

If you are aware of anyone from AVS having weighed in on this issue, I would love to read what they said.

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post #644 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by Lawguy
If you are aware of anyone from AVS having weighed in on this issue, I would love to read what they said.

same back at you..... personally I would think that Jason and Alan would stop selling SXRD preojectors if they knew it was a problem. Don't you think?

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post #645 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

same back at you..... personally I would think that Jason and Alan would stop selling SXRD preojectors if they knew it was a problem. Don't you think?

I do.

Personally, I am skeptical that there is a large SXRD projector problem. but the nature of this particular reported problem (gradual declines in contrast) could be a kind of stealth issue that might not be apparent to many people and might manifest itself after expiration of warranties and might not be as offensive as, say, a green blob that people start openly complaining about it.

My point is just that people should be careful when they attack the motives of people like Ekkehart who have really earned our respect. Basically, if someone like Ekkehart reports an issue, I think we should all take it seriously.

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post #646 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

This topic should be a case study in negative viral internet marketing.

step1: make some vague negative allegations about a company or product.
step2: when asked, provide no detail/supporting evidence.
step3: others pick up allegations and report as fact
step4: when pressed, back off and say "Right now it is just too early to make any "global" assumptions"
step5: the damage is already done

I suppose your scenario is a plausible explanation of the recent events. In fact, since Cine4home has a great deal of credibility with the AV community, their 'negative viral marketing' campaign would be especially effective.


Quote:


I suspect that some German online retailers are upset that Sony is no longer providing significant monetary "marketing support" such as compensating for review "translations"!

No offense, but it seems like you've entered step 1
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post #647 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 06:32 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Lawguy
My point is just that people should be careful when they attack the motives of people like Ekkehart who have really earned our respect. Basically, if someone like Ekkehart reports an issue, I think we should all take it seriously.

I really don't know Ekkehart, as he is in Germany... all I know is that his comments have made me nervous about buying SXRD products, and its a shame because I know I shouldn't be nervous about it, as it is just internet talk... All I wan't is to upgrade my projector, and the internet has made it so confusing... ignorance was bliss back in 1999 when I bought my first projector.

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post #648 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Agreed. I don't know exactly who the comment was direct at (presumably Ekkehart) but I don't think it is right to smear someone through innuendo. If there is anything to report, it should be said directly...

Let me state the facts as I know them:
Sony has significantly reduced their projector sales and marketing budget, particularly in Europe. This has resulted in a significant direct and indirect loss of revenue for large online businesses. Direct revenue/support losses include access to senior tech and engineering resources, access to pre-prod products, "loaner" products, cross promotion/marketing fees, direct advertising fees, site advertising fees, product placement fees, trips, junkets, and misc perks. One surprising (to me) example revenue stream is that Sony and other companies, pays a product placement fee for product reviews and also pays a fee to translate said review into other languages.

As I posted early this year, Sony exiting the RPTV business will have significant negative impact on the projector marketplace. They are not spending the kind of $(euros) on SXRD branding that they did in the past. If one has a business model that depends on revenue streams from Sony marketing there will be issues.

I have great respect for Cine4Home. I consider him second only to gregr as a professional, detailed, and objective reviewer. I have posted such over the years.

I do take issue with his handling of the "suggested" SXRD contrast loss issue. It is at best, irresponsible. If this a real issue AVS members should be alerted, he should provide the details.
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post #649 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Let me state the facts as I know them:
Sony has significantly reduced their projector sales and marketing budget, particularly in Europe. This has resulted in a significant direct and indirect loss of revenue for large online businesses. Direct revenue/support losses include access to senior tech and engineering resources, access to pre-prod products, "loaner" products, cross promotion/marketing fees, direct advertising fees, site advertising fees, product placement fees, trips, junkets, and misc perks. One surprising (to me) example revenue stream is that Sony and other companies, pays a product placement fee for product reviews and also pays a fee to translate said review into other languages.

As I posted early this year, Sony exiting the RPTV business will have significant negative impact on the projector marketplace. They are not spending the kind of $(euros) on SXRD branding that they did in the past. If one has a business model that depends on revenue streams from Sony marketing there will be issues.

I have great respect for Cine4Home. I consider him second only to gregr as a professional, detailed, and objective reviewer. I have posted such over the years.

I do take issue with his handling of the "suggested" SXRD contrast loss issue. It is at best, irresponsible. If this a real issue AVS members should be alerted, he should provide the details.

Thank you for this explanation.

As far as I can tell, the last Cine4Home English language Sony review was the vw50, which was published in April 2006. The last English language Cine4Home review at all was the Epson TW1000 in June 2007. It does not seem like Cine4Home is translating ANY reviews into English anyone, Sony or otherwise. Personally, I can't see how this explains anything.

The lack of support in other areas that you describe, particularly access to tech and engineering resources, if true, does explain a lot and frankly is the reason that Ekkehart has pointed to as a reason he can no longer support Sony, at least in Germany.

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post #650 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

...As far as I can tell, the last Cine4Home English language Sony review was the vw50, which was published in April 2006. The last English language Cine4Home review at all was the Epson TW1000 in June 2007. It does not seem like Cine4Home is translating ANY reviews into English anyone, Sony or otherwise. Personally, I can't see how this explains anything...

I don't know specifically what you are asking me to explain. My only concern as the owner of 3 SXRD devices and potential owner of a 4th is the facts about the "SXRD contrast loss issue".

There is a suggestion that the issues that large online retailers have with Sony Germany is due to the "SXRD contrast loss issue". IMO the issue is over loss of support revenue streams.
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post #651 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

I don't know specifically what you are asking me to explain. My only concern as the owner of 3 SXRD devices and potential owner of a 4th is the facts about the "SXRD contrast loss issue".

There is a suggestion that the issues that large online retailers have with Sony Germany is due to the "SXRD contrast loss issue". IMO the issue is over loss of support revenue streams.

I don't think that Ekkehart ever wrote (nor anyone else for that matter) that the dealer issues in Germany related to this contrast issue. I recall that Ekkehart wrote that he found a contrast issue (one that he feared could be an SXRD issue) on several SXRD projectors, attempted to resolve it with Sony Germany and that these attempts were not successful. Thus, the contrast issue remains unresolved.

Again, if I recall correctly, Ekkehart wrote that this was symptomatic of the kinds of support that Sony Germany was providing and it was because of this lack of support, many German dealers were essentially boycotting Sony.

What you write concerning Sony cutbacks appears to essentially be in agreement with what Ekkehart has described.

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post #652 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by will1383 View Post

I bought a Chief RPU, and it seems to perform very well. I just need to adjust the almu which connects directly to the projector.

Thanks Will for the reply in all this mess...

Can you tell me what else you ordered to go with it?

I was looking at the RPU but looks like you have to order a pipe, mount, and a ceiling plate seperate.

Thanks
kirby
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post #653 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 10:50 AM
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If I was able to make contact with senior Sony US folks regarding issues on a HS51 years ago, Why couldn't Ekki or German Sony dealers also make contact with senior Sony folks? I ended up speaking directly with senior technical staff at the Sony R&D center in California to resolve issues with the HS51 optical block. I'm just a lowly end user customer. Certainly someone from Cine4home or a Sony dealership should have greater access than I.

Sony Germany has it's own structure and perhaps culture for interfacing with owners and dealers, and if it is lacking, it's a shame efforts weren't made to shake things up. Perhaps efforts were made and were unsuccessful.

I think it is safe to say our host Alan, is an engaged HT enthusiast. He has owned many Sony SXRD projectors over the years. I have no doubt he would be 1st in line to address/report any issues with the SXRD product. It's in his best economic interest to make sure his customers have a good long term ownership experience so that he wins repeat business.

Then you consider Jason, also a HT junkie . He shoots from the hip and would likewise be among the 1st to expose any issues with a product.

Finally you take the greater AVS member population. Practically any thread will demonstrate how easily owners will rise up when there are issues with a product.

Something is wrong with this picture.

From my vantage point, I see no issues with Sony technical support. I see no systemic problems with the SXRD technology. I see no evidence of an effort to suppress SXRD owners from reporting projector problems.

All I see is an on going effort to perpetuate the reporting of a handful of undocumented observations and attempts to fill in the blanks regarding a problematic business relationship between cine4home/Germany Sony dealers and Sony Germany.

I still insist, it is not the responsibility of Sony or the community of SXRD advocates, to fill in the missing puzzle pieces on a story which lacked credible specifics to substantiate the implication of systemic problems and absentee company policies.

Those with direct knowledge of the circumstances and specifics are free to make that information known, and to date there appears to be a preference to leave the story "as is", with great room for conjecture. Even after it's clear, attempts by others to fill in the missing pieces only serves to cloud the issue and generate further suspicion of Sony and the SXRD technology, there is silence from the original detractors.

Sometimes silence speaks volumes!

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post #654 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 11:56 AM
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I am finally looking to upgrade my old HS10 to a HW10, but was wondering if the mounting holes are in the same location. I made a custom mount for my HS10, and it would be nice if I could just reuse that same mount. Does anyone know?

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post #655 of 845 Old 12-12-2008, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kepople View Post

Thanks Will for the reply in all this mess...

Can you tell me what else you ordered to go with it?

I was looking at the RPU but looks like you have to order a pipe, mount, and a ceiling plate seperate.

Thanks
kirby

That is correct. I purchased the adjustable pipe and a ceiling plate appropriate for my room. It was expensive, but I worked out a relatively decent deal from the local company who I also bought the projector from.

I'm sorry I haven't posted pictures. My carpet goes down the 22nd of December and I don't have all my drywall up yet, and I have to make paint by then, so I am very busy between that, work, the holidays and the pregnant wife. Sorry guys.. I shoulda said I couldn't get you a picture....


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post #656 of 845 Old 12-13-2008, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by timeslip View Post

I am finally looking to upgrade my old HS10 to a HW10, but was wondering if the mounting holes are in the same location. I made a custom mount for my HS10, and it would be nice if I could just reuse that same mount. Does anyone know?

Hi Timeslip. I just upgraded from the HS20 to the HW10 - and the mounting holes are the same for both (so I'm pretty sure that would be the case for the HS10 as well)

I've taken some screen shots to compare the old HS20 that I use to have with it.
I'll let you make you own decisions - but obviously colour etc is fantastic out of the box on the HW10 (much better than I could ever get with the HS20)
Sharpness is amazing and finally the option to have no overscan is a great benefit (you can see how much picture was missing in the HTWWW scenes)
Needless to say - I'm STOKED :thumbsup:

I forgot to mention - this is projected at 130" on to a plain white painted wall.
I've got some Screen Goo CRT White (with a gain of 1.8) that I'll put up in the next week or so, to see if it makes the pic pop even more
Bargain price here in Australia of AU$2,856.40 (or ~ US$1880) - this must be the first time that us Aussies are getting a projector at a significant discount to the USA.
As an example, the online price for the Pana AE3000 is ~ AU$5600 (or about twice as expensive)

The Fifth Element (Superbit DVD - HS20)


The Fifth Element (Superbit DVD - HW10)


How The West Was Won (Blu-Ray - HS20)


How The West Was Won (Blu-Ray - HW10)


How The West Was Won (Blu-Ray - HS20)


How The West Was Won (Blu-Ray - HW10)


DVD Video Essential calibration pic (sorry, I slightly over exposed this pic)


Kung Fu Panda DVD


Kung Fu Panda DVD


Die Hard 4.0 Blu-Ray


Die Hard 4.0 Blu-Ray (night scene)
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post #657 of 845 Old 12-13-2008, 08:06 AM
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WOW! What a change...Cant wait to get mine out of the box...

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post #658 of 845 Old 12-13-2008, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ozdick View Post

Bargain price here in Australia of AU$2,856.40 (or ~ US$1880) - this must be the first time that us Aussies are getting a projector at a significant discount to the USA.

Interesting ... I currently have a VPL-HS51A (now three years old),
projecting a 96in picture on a DaLite Cinema Vision (1.3 gain) in a
totally light controlled room. I have been watching this thread for
weeks cause I am very anxious to upgrade to the HW10, but have been
stopped by the current US price, especially considering the less
expensive alternatives. I intend to keep waiting, probably through the
first of the year to see if Sony drops the US price.

Note to all, this thread has been fascinating (except for the very
recent discussion about SXRD panel problems). Keep it up; I am
learning lots.
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post #659 of 845 Old 12-13-2008, 06:42 PM
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Owners are saying that the warranty card says 2 years, but sony.com says 1 year.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665533556
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Limited Warranty Term : Product Warranty - 1 Years Parts and Labor except the lamp. Lamp Warranty - 90 Days from date of purchase.


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post #660 of 845 Old 12-13-2008, 07:29 PM
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http://www.aboutprojectors.com/pdf/s...vw80-specs.pdf

This document indicates a 3 year EU warranty on the VW80 and HW10. P.23 near the bottom stats.

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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