Sony VPL-HW10 Just Arrived! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 845 Old 08-30-2008, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by interfx View Post

. Does AVSForums ever do power buys on items like this

Best thing is simply to call AVS (Jason, or some of the others) and see what they can do.
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post #62 of 845 Old 08-30-2008, 06:28 AM
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Sony doesn't have pricing that changes with the quantity purchased so you can't club them to lower prices with a big order. Any and all dealers can sell it for whatever they want. This unit will be all over the internet at prices bumping up very closely to dealer cost. Some will be below cost but those "dealers" will be bait and switch, scams, or make it up by selling you other things or high shipping yada yada. The bad news is that dealer margin on this product is very small and making dealer cost relatively high and relatively close to MSRP. Legitimate discounts just won't be and can't be that much.

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post #63 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 12:03 PM
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Can someone explain this to me: Does it matter if the projector displays a 24fps signal as long as it is either 24, 48, 96, or even 120? Is there a difference?
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post #64 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Can someone explain this to me: Does it matter if the projector displays a 24fps signal as long as it is either 24, 48, 96, or even 120? Is there a difference?

I think the 3:2 pulldown (showing one frame three times, the next two, at 60 hz) 'judder' is gone if the projector can display 24 hertz or any multiple. That is a good thing.

(Grain of salt time: this is just what I've picked up reading around hear, go read the experts if you are concerned about accuracy)

I remember seeing a discussion that the way a normal front projector (at any frequency) shows frames is different from what a film projector does. The digital projector shows one frame for 1/60th of a second, or whatever, and then the next. The movie projector shows a given frame twice: two bright flashes of the picture spaced by 1/48th of a second, the switches to the next. If you graphed the light, you would see a series of bright flashes, two per frame. If you graphed the light from a video projector, I believe you would see a flatter graph, switching from one frame to another at the frequency of the projector.

I've heard of 'dark frame insertion', where the projector would insert black frames, reproducing a more 'film-like' appearance.

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post #65 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Can someone explain this to me: Does it matter if the projector displays a 24fps signal as long as it is either 24, 48, 96, or even 120? Is there a difference?

Yes it does matter. A 24Hz refresh will cause noticable flicker in the image. Many people will also object to the flicker at 48Hz and at 72Hz it becomes flicker free for most people. For example, some of the new Panasonic 1080p plasmas can display a 1080p/24 input at 48Hz and I can see the flicker (also reported in a recent magazine review). Even movie projectors display each frame of the 24 frames per second film multiple times to reduce the perceived flicker in the image.

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post #66 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 05:44 PM
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I believe you on the flicker, but I have to think it's more complicated than just the frequency. The piece of data that is missing is the 'duty cycle', the amount of the full period where the image is fully lit. Even that assumes that the image is 'on' or 'off', where in reality it will likely have some ramp up and ramp down time.

If the frequency is 96 Hz, with each frame displayed 4 times, with a 100% duty cycle (The projector is always showing full light, no 'off' between repetitions of the same frame, instantaneous switching between frames), then I'll argue it won't be measurable different than a 24 Hz display. Any measurement of the picture from the two projectors will show the same thing.

If a 24 Hz display shows more flicker (which I believe), then there must be significant (noticable) dark time between the frames. In that case, cranking up the frequency would make for lots of dark periods rather than just a few, and they'd be less noticable.

The other option would be to make light engines that had a higher duty cycle and display at 24 Hz. All else being equal, this would give more light for a given light source, always a good thing...

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post #67 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

It'll have to kill you longer...I ran out of time before the weekend. I will get this up Sunday for triple sure (yeah yeah, I know I said that).

It's very nice though...

I am waiting impatiently for Jason's review, refreshing every half an hour today!!!!!!

I hope Jason wont postpone further!!!!

Thanks Jason for your service to the community.
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post #68 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 05:57 PM
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Jason is SUNDAY...Please.....Tic Tac Tic Tac....

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post #69 of 845 Old 08-31-2008, 06:04 PM
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Hey, the poor guy is probably out BBQ'ing, kickin' back a cold one, and enjoying the beach...after all, it IS a Holiday weekend!

Of course, there are those of us AVS junkies that are ANXIOUSLY awaiting the review! (Especially those of us with a nearly completed room..)

(Hitting refresh pretty often myself!)

- B
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post #70 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Yes it does matter. A 24Hz refresh will cause noticable flicker in the image. Many people will also object to the flicker at 48Hz and at 72Hz it becomes flicker free for most people. For example, some of the new Panasonic 1080p plasmas can display a 1080p/24 input at 48Hz and I can see the flicker (also reported in a recent magazine review). Even movie projectors display each frame of the 24 frames per second film multiple times to reduce the perceived flicker in the image.

My understanding is that SXRD, DILA and LCD all show a frame permanently until something changes. There is no black time between frames like there is on scanning devices like CRTs.
So for most devices of this kind, there will be absolutely no difference between 24/48/96 or 120hz.

However now that we're up to 120hz, some companies have started to try and add processing algorithms to try and improve 2 things...

1) One thing is that our eyes don't like this sample and hold effect and see motion smear. This is different for different people (a bit like rainbows are) but it can be quite irritating.
Sony has introduced 'Black Frame Insertion' so that in between each real frame of movie, there is now a black frame (in fact they show the black frame at a frequency of 48hz, which is the same as a commercial film-based theater). Our brain prefers motion seen like this and sees less motion smear. The flicker might bother some people, but not me.

2) The second issue is that 24 frames isn't actually very much and some companies are trying to add new interpolated frames inbetween the old ones in order to smooth out motion. The classic scene I can remember seeing 24fps judder on is when Titanic leaves the harbour. You could see the bow of the ship flickering/juddering as it travels across the screen.

Sony call this MotionFlow and some people like it for everything, others like it just for video-based 60hz material like sports, etc. Others don't like it at all.
Panasonic and Epson have both included this in their next products. But I haven't seen 'Dark Frame Insertion' mentioned as yet, which is a shame.

Edit: By the way - I don't think the HW10 includes these Sony features, but I may be wrong.
Edit 2: frame interpolation also helps with the motion smear associated with sample and hold devices, but some don't like it's side effects.

Hope that helps
tt
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post #71 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 06:52 AM
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The VPL-vw200 has dark frame insertion but it really dims the picture if one switches it on.

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post #72 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 07:12 AM
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I've got an 80" screen in a "bat cave"...I'd love to see this feature start showing up on more projectors.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #73 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 08:14 AM
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Jason must have been a victim of Rendition, send in Jason Bourne to find him!
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post #74 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 09:02 AM
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I'm trying to see if this projector would fit my setup. From the info. available (80 inches from a distance of 3.89 m or 153 inches) the further I can be to project a 88inches screen would be 168inches or around 14. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks
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post #75 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 02:46 PM
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Wow what a shameless lier someone is
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post #76 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cc2 View Post

I'm trying to see if this projector would fit my setup. From the info. available (80 inches from a distance of 3.89 m or 153 inches) the further I can be to project a 88inches screen would be 168inches or around 14. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks

I hope that this can help you.
LL

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post #77 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 03:08 PM
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He left himself an "out" when he said, "I will get this up Sunday for triple sure (yeah yeah, I know I said that)".
Leave the guy alone and enjoy your holiday; play with the kids, kiss your wife, clean out the garage, and throw a few steaks on the grill. Jason will get the results up soon enough and you'll place your orders with him on Tuesday

A woman is weeping over shadows on a screen, a man gets excited over ink on a page, a child is frightened over words in a book-
The mind gets caught up in the unreal and people become identified with it. But its power is such that it rules the world.
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post #78 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaño View Post

Jason is SUNDAY...Please.....Tic Tac Tic Tac....



Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

Wow what a shameless lier someone is

Jason has been around this game long enough to know hardcore AVSers are HT masochists. The torture of anticipation is more pleasurable than actually having the device in your posession. If you spend more time on AVS than actually in your HT, you know what I'm talking about.
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post #79 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 03:47 PM
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Jason is currently held captive by the Sony Security Police. He will be released when they feel it is appropriate.

Resistance is futile!
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post #80 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by manos_kastr View Post

I hope that this can help you.

Thanks. Similar number to what I have. Too bad for me...
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post #81 of 845 Old 09-01-2008, 04:58 PM
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I was just starting to count down the days until I order a VW40 and now I'm pleasantly surprised it's been superceded already. This is exciting news.

I wonder what the Canadian MSRP is going to be?

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post #82 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 04:06 AM
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Jason it's monday. Please post the review. We can't wait any longer :-)

Tom J. Panasonic PT-AE500+HTPC
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post #83 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 04:53 AM
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I've actually been wondering if Sony squashed Jason's "pre-announcement" review..(and are making him wait until closer to / after the actual product release at CEDIA?)
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post #84 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBB_63 View Post

I've actually been wondering if Sony squashed Jason's "pre-announcement" review..(and are making him wait until closer to / after the actual product release at CEDIA?)

That sounds very realistic. Or, should I say, very Sony. (And yes, I am the proud owner of a 40" Sony Bravia TV, Sony PSX, Sony Cybershot...etc...)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #85 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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So I lied and I didn't get it up Sunday. It is up now!
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post #86 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll rephrase...I can get it up whenever needed, but the review is posted.
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post #87 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
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So I lied and I didn't get it up Sunday. It is up now!

This is either a great projector or you take it way too seriously.

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post #88 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 08:48 AM
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Jason,

Firstly, thanks for the effort and time.

A question or two.

You mention 16K:1 On/Off, any chance of native (sans Iris), or *is* that native? Crossing appedages.
I also thought the specs were 30K:1, your review states otherwise.
Quote:


As mentioned, the unit is rated at 15000:1 on/off contrast like the VW40 (with iris)

Your mention of sharpness: Is this with lens shift centred? Can you comment on CA with lens shift engaged?

Any sign of anamorphic modes?

ted
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post #89 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 09:03 AM
 
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Thanks Jason.Great review and looks like a winner.How much does this unit weigh please.Thanks/
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post #90 of 845 Old 09-02-2008, 09:23 AM
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The wait is killing me....
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