Input Lag of various projectors - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 424 Old 05-05-2009, 04:39 PM
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Hello,

Have any of you considered the sharp xv-z15000. Its a 1080p dlp with a gaming mode that bypasses any video processing. Sounds like what we are looking for.

Here one member says picture quality is amazing for its price.

Product sheet is here

Review is up in projectorcentral.com

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post #272 of 424 Old 05-06-2009, 07:42 AM
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Sounds interesting. I'd like to see some tests on it. Any idea what chip it's using for its picture processing? I ask because the Panasonic PT-3000, with its proprietary processor, also has a "game mode" to reduce lag by bypassing a lot of processing, but all it really does is improve processing times from really slow to somewhat slow.
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post #273 of 424 Old 05-06-2009, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudSMoke View Post

Simple Test:

Try moving your mouse in windows when using the VGA input on your projector.

Then try moving your mouse again using the HDMI input.
The movement will be more sluggish.

I own an ax200u and ae3000 and a 6500UB.
The differences are substantial.

Anyone with a brain stem would realize lag does exists and yes it does mess with your game.

what is the best between these for gaming in your opinion? thanks!!
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post #274 of 424 Old 05-07-2009, 11:55 AM
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I think the big problem is an awareness issue. When gamers think of lag, they think of the game slowing down due to network latency. If the game isn't slowing down, they assume the game is playing "lagfree". What they don't realize is that even if the game is playing lag free, their screens may be displaying information that other gamers have already seen in the past. Therefore, they are reacting to "old" information. An example of this is in Gears of War. Often times, an opponent can kill you even though they don't appear to be even facing you because your tv/projector is taking so long to display the information being passed from the xbox. If you were using a display that had less input lag, they would be facing you and you would be able to react to the game properly.
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post #275 of 424 Old 06-18-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Found this post in the PT-AE3000 Owner's Thread, for what it's worth. Not sure how much I do/don't trust Rock Band 2's calibration tools, but it's the only sort of measurement I've seen of the AE-3000u at all so far.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post14991029

Um, it looks to me like this is by far the most accurate way to judge lag for a display. All this screwing around with cameras and computers is noble, but flawed compared to the purity of data this $50 plastic guitar will give us.
I'm going to pick up one tomorrow for my Xbox360 and test my CRT, my Samsung A580 (cheap one, has no 120mhz mode), and my AE900U. When my Sanyo Z3000 comes in, I'll test that too. I'm betting the Z3000 gets the same result as the AE3000, about 30ms, the AE900U gets 15ms and the CRT gets 5ms. Any takers?
I love this geeky stuff, this is what avsforum is all about.
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post #276 of 424 Old 06-18-2009, 11:49 AM
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The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.
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post #277 of 424 Old 06-18-2009, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbie View Post

The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.

Good point. On the other side, some of us absolutely SUCK at twitch games, so the slightly greater suck caused by 15ms more lag is like pissing in a thunderstorm... that is, not a big deal.
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post #278 of 424 Old 06-18-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Um, it looks to me like this is by far the most accurate way to judge lag for a display. All this screwing around with cameras and computers is noble, but flawed compared to the purity of data this $50 plastic guitar will give us.
I'm going to pick up one tomorrow for my Xbox360 and test my CRT, my Samsung A580 (cheap one, has no 120mhz mode), and my AE900U. When my Sanyo Z3000 comes in, I'll test that too. I'm betting the Z3000 gets the same result as the AE3000, about 30ms, the AE900U gets 15ms and the CRT gets 5ms. Any takers?
I love this geeky stuff, this is what avsforum is all about.

How is the current method of using cameras and computers flawed?
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post #279 of 424 Old 06-19-2009, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

How is the current method of using cameras and computers flawed?

- Cameras can be too slow, numbers blurred or hard to read.
- Issue with clock software because of PC timing/CPU power
- Lag of computer monitor or output to display device being tested

I guess "flawed" is the wrong word, the phrase " higher potential for error"
is probably more accurate. I drew those examples above from people's real-life experiences in this thread, so they *do* happen.

Whereas, with the Rock Band 2 guitar with optical sensor, there is no possiblity of error and it's much more simple. You hold the sensor up to the screen, the game flashes a white light, and you get the exact delay time. The only things that can cause variations are settings on the display (FI on/off, movie mode) and what kind of resolution (1080p/1080i/720p) which are things we want to test anyway.
Also, for console users it has the extra benefit of testing the lag using the system they are using to play games. (for PC gamers, the other method had the same benefit)
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post #280 of 424 Old 06-22-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbie View Post

The input lag with my HD1 is often the difference between winning and losing a match in SF4. Great for movies and single player, but if you serious about multi you'll want something without as much lag.

I agree completely on the JVC HD1/RS1. The input lag is TERRIBLE. It has gotten to the point I don't enjoy playing my beloved Call of Duty W@W on it. Playing on my CRT I'm a great player. On my JVC I would say I drop to barily average. As must as I love my JVC with its superior picture quality to my 5 year old Hitachi CRT. I just can't stand the LAG!!! Both Ps3s are fed from the same internet feed so that is not the issue.

Anybody have any ideas on how to help with the lag on this particular Projector?
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post #281 of 424 Old 06-22-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

- Cameras can be too slow, numbers blurred or hard to read.
- Issue with clock software because of PC timing/CPU power
- Lag of computer monitor or output to display device being tested

I guess "flawed" is the wrong word, the phrase " higher potential for error"
is probably more accurate. I drew those examples above from people's real-life experiences in this thread, so they *do* happen.

Whereas, with the Rock Band 2 guitar with optical sensor, there is no possiblity of error and it's much more simple. You hold the sensor up to the screen, the game flashes a white light, and you get the exact delay time. The only things that can cause variations are settings on the display (FI on/off, movie mode) and what kind of resolution (1080p/1080i/720p) which are things we want to test anyway.
Also, for console users it has the extra benefit of testing the lag using the system they are using to play games. (for PC gamers, the other method had the same benefit)

- With a 1/125s shutter, you only get one frame, although you may catch a CRT in the midst of refresh, which is why you discard those pictures as measurements.
- The timer clock used in the measurement software is highly accurate. It is not related to the time stored or displayed in your PC.
- The reference display should be a 0 lag CRT.
- When you measure things manually, you can see the min / avg / max lag, not sure if Rock Band 2 gives you those numbers.

However, the Rock Band 2 is pretty fool proof and simple, and is a great option if available.
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post #282 of 424 Old 06-22-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

- With a 1/125s shutter, you only get one frame, although you may catch a CRT in the midst of refresh, which is why you discard those pictures as measurements.
- The timer clock used in the measurement software is highly accurate. It is not related to the time stored or displayed in your PC.
- The reference display should be a 0 lag CRT.
- When you measure things manually, you can see the min / avg / max lag, not sure if Rock Band 2 gives you those numbers.

However, the Rock Band 2 is pretty fool proof and simple, and is a great option if available.

Nice summary. If I was using the PC for gaming, I'd use the Clock method. Rock Band 2 for the consoles. I'll try to post some results up by tomorrow.
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post #283 of 424 Old 06-23-2009, 09:48 AM
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Well I did a baseline test on my CRT via SVIDEO & Composite, 3ms. (pretty close to zero) and my Samsung 52" A580 LCD, 65ms!!! Wow, it's not even a 120mhz interpolated version. I'm getting my Sanyo Z3000 tomorrow, I'll have the number for that and the ol' AE900U then.

(Another thing I need to keep in mind with this testing, is every foot you stand back from a speaker is about 1ms delay time. No big deal in most situations)
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post #284 of 424 Old 06-23-2009, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Well I did a baseline test on my CRT via SVIDEO & Composite, 3ms. (pretty close to zero) and my Samsung 52" A580 LCD, 65ms!!! Wow, it's not even a 120mhz interpolated version. I'm getting my Sanyo Z3000 tomorrow, I'll have the number for that and the ol' AE900U then.

(Another thing I need to keep in mind with this testing, is every foot you stand back from a speaker is about 1ms delay time. No big deal in most situations)

Hi, S_rangeBrew, how does the Rock Band lag measurement work? From your description, it sounds like it measures the time elapsed between sound coming from the speakers, and a flash on the screen. Am I right about that? What would be really nice is something that would measure the difference between the button press and a flash on the screen, and just leave the sound out of it. That would be even simpler and more accurate. Still, it sounds like a pretty good way of measuring lag, and something that more people could potentially do than the camera method.
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post #285 of 424 Old 06-24-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Hi, S_rangeBrew, how does the Rock Band lag measurement work? From your description, it sounds like it measures the time elapsed between sound coming from the speakers, and a flash on the screen. Am I right about that?

No, the guitar has both a photosensor and a microphone built into it, and measures both sound and video lag seperately from each other, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I don't know why I include the sound lag information, I shouldn't have, it just made things more complicated, although it's important for the enjoyment of game like Rock Band.

Quote:


What would be really nice is something that would measure the difference between the button press and a flash on the screen, and just leave the sound out of it. That would be even simpler and more accurate.

The only thing the button press test would do is measure the lag of the console itself to it's own controller input, it would have no relation to video lag, which is what the guitar photosensor measures. As far as anyone can tell the "controller lag" is pretty much zero on any video game, so it's not worth worrying about.

Quote:


Still, it sounds like a pretty good way of measuring lag, and something that more people could potentially do than the camera method.

Yeah, from what I've seen, it seems to give pretty repeatable measurements, and there is very little to screw up. Once I confirmed it measured about 0ms on a CRT TV, I became completely confident in it's results.

I'm pretty amazed at the Terrible lag these new displays have vs. the old CRTs, I didn't realize it was that bad. I can see how someone using a laggy digital display + internet lag could really get shredded in online twitch games. I'm quite curious to test the projectors tomorrow.
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post #286 of 424 Old 06-26-2009, 05:28 PM
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I finished up my testing on on these three devices: An old Panasonic 32" CRT, A Samsung A580 52" LCD flat panel and a Sanyo Z3000 projector. Used the Rock Band 2 calibration system.

As expected the CRT has ZERO lag. Rock Band actually measured it as -3ms.. yes NEGATIVE 3ms. Now that's fast! LOL. If you are a competitive twitch gamer... CRT is your only option, I guess. I used SVIDEO and 480i for this test.

The Samsung A580 is a 1080P 60hz non-FI (Frame Interpolation) Best Buy exclusive model I got last year on their Black Friday sale. It's the same as an A530. This got 65ms lag time. ( I'm wondering if Samsung needs to work on their circuitry, because my friends 720P non-FI Samsung Plasma did even worse than this, 77ms lag time! )

Next up was the Sanyo Z3000 1080P 120hz FI-capable projector. I just put this in my home theater which I use for all my gaming, so I was a bit worried about what I'd get for results on this after seeing the bad numbers on the theoretically simpler Samsungs as pointed out above.
Turns out there was no need to worry. Even with the FI (Smooth Motion) turned on high, the lag was only 48ms. With the FI turned off, it improved to 30ms. Very nice.

So, there are some more data points for people to mull over. I will say the 77ms delay on my friends plasma was slightly noticable in Rock Band, I don't know if the 30ms will be that bad.
I found it interesting that a "High-End" 120hz FI projector was faster than a "low-end" non-FI plasma or LCD.
People with Rock Band 2 should start posting more results from their displays.
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post #287 of 424 Old 06-29-2009, 07:06 AM
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Very nice work! That's consistent with the previous measurements of the Z3000 that I've seen (all of the new "ultra-contrast" LCDs seem to clock in at about 30ms).
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post #288 of 424 Old 06-29-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Very nice work! That's consistent with the previous measurements of the Z3000 that I've seen (all of the new "ultra-contrast" LCDs seem to clock in at about 30ms).

Yes, it seems with decent circuitry, even FI-capable displays can get 30ms or less. I don't know what wrong with the Samsungs I tested. Is this a common issue with that brand?

I know I was personally a bit concerned about getting the Z3000 because it was FI-capable, and I'd heard some horror stories of massive lag on *some* FI-capable displays. This should put those fears to rest, at least for the Z3000. I programmed a user mode called "GAME" (I like how you can name your custom modes) that has the FI turned off for extra bit of response time.

One nice thing about the Rock Band 2 auto-test is that it also tests for audio lag. I found out my Pioneer 1014TX has almost exactly the same lag as my Z3000, so no worries on lip sync issues! Bonus!
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post #289 of 424 Old 06-29-2009, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Yes, it seems with decent circuitry, even FI-capable displays can get 30ms or less. I don't know what wrong with the Samsungs I tested. Is this a common issue with that brand?

In my experience, yes. I had a Samsung 720p DLP with pretty bad lag a few years ago (and with deinterlacing involved, all games were downright unplayable - about a full half-second of lag). When the whole input lag issue started garnering notice, the Samsungs became somewhat notorious for having the worst numbers.
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post #290 of 424 Old 06-29-2009, 11:08 AM
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Btw, it would be great if someone could verify the under 16ms lag projectors so far (the Sony HW10, Infocus IN82/83, Epson 6100) with the Guitar Hero method.

And, of course, I would really love to see some numbers on the Sharp XV-Z15000 using Vyper Drive. Maybe I should see about procuring a used Rock Band 2 myself. It would be much more feasible to go to a projector store with XBox 360 in tow, and take a couple simple measurements, than to tote in my PC with digital camera and CRT monitor.
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post #291 of 424 Old 07-02-2009, 09:10 PM
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Great thread guys. I just started getting curious about projectors and this is the first issue I needed to look into. Keep up the good work.

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post #292 of 424 Old 07-21-2009, 11:13 AM
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New Epson 6100 owner here! In case anyone's wondering - it's the fastest projector I've ever used. Stunningly fast. As fast as the 1080/UB of last year, or any of the older Sanyo Z3/4/5s.

I am very happy with it. I couldn't ask anything more for a gaming device.

=Tommy v2=
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post #293 of 424 Old 07-21-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

New Epson 6100 owner here! In case anyone's wondering - it's the fastest projector I've ever used. Stunningly fast. As fast as the 1080/UB of last year, or any of the older Sanyo Z3/4/5s.

I am very happy with it. I couldn't ask anything more for a gaming device.

Would it be possible for you to gather some measurements, using either the Rock Band 2 or dual-display PC method?
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post #294 of 424 Old 07-21-2009, 09:21 PM
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Glad to see this thread is still going. If consumers are aware, then manufacturers will start making low-lag projectors. I'll be keeping an eye out for what comes up and in the meantime I'll be enjoying my IN83 that I chose over JVC/PIO because of lag.
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post #295 of 424 Old 07-21-2009, 10:08 PM
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The IN83 is such a nice unit. Enjoy.

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post #296 of 424 Old 07-22-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

Would it be possible for you to gather some measurements, using either the Rock Band 2 or dual-display PC method?

Yeah, eventually. I don't have RB or anything of the sort, but I can do the PC method. It'll be a while, since I've put the projector away so I can finish the basement theatre room.

Keep in mind that *that* particular test tells us nothing about the lag on 720p or 1080p feeds, only composite 480i feeds, which is unlikely to be the majority's gaming method. I don't have a modern laptop that'll output any HD res. However, I am absurdly sensitive to lag, and this thing gives me a giant grin on my face.

=Tommy v2=
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post #297 of 424 Old 07-22-2009, 11:22 AM
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For those who may not recall, the Epson 6100 clocked in at about 16ms earlier in the thread.
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post #298 of 424 Old 07-22-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Yeah, eventually. I don't have RB or anything of the sort, but I can do the PC method. It'll be a while, since I've put the projector away so I can finish the basement theatre room.

Keep in mind that *that* particular test tells us nothing about the lag on 720p or 1080p feeds, only composite 480i feeds, which is unlikely to be the majority's gaming method. I don't have a modern laptop that'll output any HD res. However, I am absurdly sensitive to lag, and this thing gives me a giant grin on my face.

Does the projector have a VGA input? You could hook up the laptop to that...that would probably provide the lowest lag number. 480i would provide the worst case scenario. All other inputs should fall somewhere in between.
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post #299 of 424 Old 07-23-2009, 06:44 AM
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Good news! A spec sheet has just been released for the new Infocus SP8602. It uses the same 10-bit Pixelworks video processor as the IN83/82, so it will have the same low lag!

And unlike the IN83 and IN82, it has lens shift, so you won't need a freaking 20 foot ceiling to install the thing. Since the lack of lens shift (combined with absurd projection angle) was the one thing that put the IN83 out of the running for me, this is looking like my new projector of choice.
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post #300 of 424 Old 07-27-2009, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Good news! A spec sheet has just been released for the new Infocus SP8602. It uses the same 10-bit Pixelworks video processor as the IN83/82, so it will have the same low lag!

And unlike the IN83 and IN82, it has lens shift, so you won't need a freaking 20 foot ceiling to install the thing. Since the lack of lens shift (combined with absurd projection angle) was the one thing that put the IN83 out of the running for me, this is looking like my new projector of choice.

For what it's worth, I project a glorious 133" picture from only a 7-1/2 foot high ceiling by slightly tilting the IN83 upward. It yields a slight skew, but nothing that is ever noticed by anyone. Nearly 100 people have seen the image from my setup, and not one of them noticed anything but a huge bright sharp picture.
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