Input Lag of various projectors - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I wonder if Pixelworks even knows how fast they are? They should start marketing this in some way - surely somebody will care. "Our chipsets are in devices fast enough for gaming - don't settle for less!" it might be a good gimmick.

It's hard to say how the new Epsons will be. The spec sheet for the 6500 says Pixelworks WITH Reon VX. I have no idea what that means. Two processors, for extra slowness?

like samsung, they have titled the new chip with the fastest response time you have ever seen, 0.0001s or something like that
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:21 AM
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I'll believe that when I see it! I can't fathom how more steps in processing could make things faster (not that anyone's claiming it will).

I guess one theoretical guess would be:

-Has anyone tested a slow Pixelworks device?
-Has anyone tested a fast Reon or Realta device?
-For the other ones, like Sony, how are they? (these projectors with custom chips are rarely tested it seems)

I just know that whatever's in my Dell 24" monitor should be banned from existence. Massive, crazy lag, completely unusable for 2D gaming, at any resolution. My previous monitor (Samsung 21", 2003 model) was actually pretty good for speed, but it had much worse blurring.

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Old 10-20-2008, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I'll believe that when I see it! I can't fathom how more steps in processing could make things faster (not that anyone's claiming it will).

I guess one theoretical guess would be:

-Has anyone tested a slow Pixelworks device?
-Has anyone tested a fast Reon or Realta device?
-For the other ones, like Sony, how are they? (these projectors with custom chips are rarely tested it seems)

I just know that whatever's in my Dell 24" monitor should be banned from existence. Massive, crazy lag, completely unusable for 2D gaming, at any resolution. My previous monitor (Samsung 21", 2003 model) was actually pretty good for speed, but it had much worse blurring.

Realta's are programmable devices, so based on what you ask them to do, they will be variable speed. The Reon on the other hand is a fixed function device, however it can be configured in several ways. I can't speak for the Realta, but the Reon in my experience is slow. All devices will Reon's that I've seen have a minimum of 2 frames of delay and sometimes more - up to 4 frames. If you make the Reon run in close to a bypass mode it is much quicker, but still causes a delay.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sethk View Post

the Reon in my experience is slow. All devices will Reon's that I've seen have a minimum of 2 frames of delay and sometimes more - up to 4 frames. If you make the Reon run in close to a bypass mode it is much quicker, but still causes a delay.

Augh. Don't tell me that. My Vardia RD-X7 already has a Reon-VX chip, so I don't need it for TV or (Japanese region) DVDs, but I was hoping I'd be able to bypass the TW-4000's Reon-VX chip completely for my Xbox 360, and that the image lag would be as good or better than the TW-2000...

One more reason to make sure I go test these new models before making a purchase decision...

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

I decided to head down to Yodobashi Camera (where photo taking is actually expressly prohibited...) with my laptop and VGA cable and decided to try the same setup with all their 1080p projectors. Unfortunately, the ceiling mounted projector was out of the question, and the Z2000 and TW2000 (1080UB) still both had dead bulbs. (The Z2000 was dead when I first visited a few weeks ago.)

Hopefully Yodobashi Camera gets around to changing the lamps on the Z2000. Since it's using the same processing as the Z3000, it should give us a general idea about how the Z3000 will perform.

Maybe it's about time you earn some Suica points and hop on the JR and take a trip to another Yodobashi.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:49 AM
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Great thread, I'd love to see some info on the Sony vpl-hw10.

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Old 10-22-2008, 12:01 PM
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Has anyone thought of contacting Sony, Epson, Sanyo, etc and passing this thread along to them? If one of these emails get to their engineers, they might take things more seriously, or start advertising if their results are good. It's just one more thing for them to improve on and differentiate their product over each other's.

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Old 10-22-2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Hopefully Yodobashi Camera gets around to changing the lamps on the Z2000. Since it's using the same processing as the Z3000, it should give us a general idea about how the Z3000 will perform.

Maybe it's about time you earn some Suica points and hop on the JR and take a trip to another Yodobashi.

the inputlag from the sanyo z2000 and the new mitsubishi hc5500 are above 80ms, like the benq w5000. for me the infocus x10 is the ultimate full hd gaming machine and i am very happy with it. but hurry, in europe the prices have been gone up from 1200 to 1450 in the last two weeks and i think i know the reason, because its a great projector and every pence worth
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by taubenspikes View Post

the inputlag from the sanyo z2000 and the new mitsubishi hc5500 are above 80ms, like the benq w5000.

Where did you get these numbers? Link?
The Z2000 is using Pixelworks, which you even said yourself was fast.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:24 AM
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Yeah, good question! If you've tested the Z2000, let's see some pics. It's hard to believe it's that high based on previous experience.

Problem with AVS forum is that SO many people own these machines but not many want to test things and post pics. Maybe we should beg in individual model threads?

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Old 10-23-2008, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Maybe we should beg in individual model threads?

VERY good idea.

At least worth a try, eh?
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

VERY good idea.

At least worth a try, eh?

Well.... I've had no luck. :/
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:26 PM
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Those owners are of no use! It's the people who WANT to buy that are the curious ones....go figure.

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Old 10-28-2008, 05:31 PM
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im really interested in hc5500,but input lag is really that high ?? can it be calibrated by switching off some features ?

Im sentive to lag especially in fps like halo.. I used to have samsung lcd tv a656 and lag was annoying without game mode, so can anyone compare to this tv ?
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:37 AM
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I bought the Epson 1080UB. Coming in a few weeks (on backorder). Can't wait to game on this thing! I will post benchmarks for lag, since no one else seems to want to do it!

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Old 10-29-2008, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I bought the Epson 1080UB. Coming in a few weeks (on backorder). Can't wait to game on this thing! I will post benchmarks for lag, since no one else seems to want to do it!

Aww man, I just tested my friend's 1080UB and the lag is so bad...






Ok, ok, I'm just kidding!
Please do let us know the results and your personal opinions. Congrats on your new toy.
The 1080UB is using Pixelworks DNX, so I expect the results will be good.
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:45 AM
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You gave me a mild heart attack there! Damn!

I'll test it and put up the results right away. I just can't wait for this thing! I haven't figured out the size I'm going to project yet, but it's going to be spectacular.

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Old 10-29-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

You gave me a mild heart attack there! Damn!

I'll test it and put up the results right away. I just can't wait for this thing! I haven't figured out the size I'm going to project yet, but it's going to be spectacular.

I always find it nice to decide on a screen after your PJ purchase. It gives you more freedom and confidence to decide on what size and gain you want.


Out of curiosity, I'm dying to know how the input lag is comparing the Epson 1080UB and the Sanyo Z2000, because they're both using the same Pixelworks DNX ICs.

It's a shame that those happened to be the two PJs that Peeter couldn't test at Yodobashi Camera.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Out of curiosity, I'm dying to know how the input lag is comparing the Epson 1080UB and the Sanyo Z2000, because they're both using the same Pixelworks DNX ICs.

It's a shame that those happened to be the two PJs that Peeter couldn't test at Yodobashi Camera.

I heard from another AVS guy here (Tokyo) that Yodobashi's got the new Epson (I'm assuming TW3000) on display already, so while this long weekend is a trip to my wife's grandmother's house for her to meet our son for the first time, I'll almost certainly be at Yodobashi, with a laptop or two, to see if I can't test any new projectors... (Fingers crossed the projector room will still be abandoned like it almost always is. The new models may mean staff, and photos are against the rules...)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:14 AM
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Awesome, can't wait! When we start getting some photographic evidence, we'll have to clean up this thread because it's more discussion than results. Would be nice if there was a thread with results only, for quick reference. If need be, I can even host a page on my website.

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Old 10-30-2008, 02:12 PM
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Just found this short German article on the Sanyo Z3000 120Hz PJ:
http://translate.google.com/translat...y%26as_qdr%3Dd

This roughly (poorly) translated portion makes an interesting note that further solidifies my confidence that the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 with the Pixelworks DNX will be the gamer's choice out of the big 3 120Hz contenders this year.
Quote:


How Sanyo announced on Tuesday evening, the fast response of the image thrower also sports fans rapid transfers or video game fans are available.

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Old 10-30-2008, 02:36 PM
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That's great news. Pixelworks is the new Corinthian Leather, the new Grey Poupon!

All this study of input lag just hurts my head. In the end, I say to myself, "I want to play video games on a giant frickin' screen and I want the character to jump when I press the button. The end."

All this talk between different models and brands, I mean - pick the best one you can afford that meets your lag needs. That's about it. Luckily it's turning out that there's a lot to choose from. Definitely not the same story in flat panel TV land!

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Old 10-30-2008, 02:46 PM
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anyone know about inputlag of epson HC 720 (tw680 in europe) ? all epsons look preatty good with low inputlag.. but i dont know about exactly this model, so ?

thnx for answer
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cajhaj View Post

anyone know about inputlag of epson HC 720 (tw680 in europe) ? all epsons look preatty good with low inputlag.. but i dont know about exactly this model, so ?

thnx for answer

The short answer is that it's using Pixelworks, so I'd say it's a safe bet that's it's a great PJ for gaming.





After all this mind numbing research, it seems that the unanimous results show that projectors using Pixelworks processing always seem to be great for gaming.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

The short answer is that it's using Pixelworks, so I'd say it's a safe bet that's it's a great PJ for gaming.





After all this mind numbing research, it seems that the unanimous results show that projectors using Pixelworks processing always seem to be great for gaming.

thnx for fast answer .) im gonna take this piece, probably tomorrow
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Luckily it's turning out that there's a lot to choose from. Definitely not the same story in flat panel TV land!

Very lucky, indeed. I've gone through so many LCD HDTVs it's ridiculous. I was blown away by how fast my last Epson projector was. It was one of those unreal moments, I almost believed that you couldn't get a display with honestly minimal input lag other than going the CRT route.

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My Epson 77c has lightning fast response time, better than any consumer LCD panel I've owned.



I truly do hope that projectors don't all go the route of the Reon in the not so distant future. I'm not going to kidd myself though, Pixelworks is old tech. It just so happens to fit the gamer's needs. Heck, I say if it's good enough for the 1080UB and Z3000, it's good enough for me.

It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode. What's the most recent LCD flat panel HDTV using Pixelworks? The only ones that comes to mind are the 2006 Olevia 3 series 720p displays.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted ResOGlas
It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode.

Maybe the processors in flat panels TV's are NOT the weak link? The game mode can bypass time consuming processors task, but can't speed up the panel itself. The LCD chips used in projectors have generally been pretty fast, but the panels in LCD TV's have not. 2 different techs with similar name. This is just a guess, I'm no expert....LOL!

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Old 10-31-2008, 06:26 AM
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dlp can handle resolutions with up to 85hz. lcd canĀ“t - they will only accept 60hz and if you have played 10 years on a crt monitor you will feel the difference.
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Old 10-31-2008, 08:08 AM
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I don't believe refresh rate has anything to do with it, or even panel speed. I think all panels are faster than their processor. What's 85hz or 120hz do the output from your console is still 60hz? The Sega Game Gear, like 18 years ago, had an LCD screen that was instant, as did the NEC TurboXpress system years before that. LCD panels are fast enough for anything. Their colour changing speed is a different story, but I don't really care what colour Mario is, I just want him to jump on time!

This is all 100% video processor dependent. LCD monitors got slower before they got faster a few years ago. I've used some late 90s LCDs and they were instant, my 2007 Dell - garbage. Panels have only gotten better since then, processors have only gotten more to do, hence slower.

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Old 10-31-2008, 11:44 AM
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It *almost* baffles me that recent LCD TVs with specific Game Modes can't compete with LCD projectors that don't have a Game Mode.

Over at behardware.com, one of the few professional reviewers that regularly does input lag tests, I've noticed a trend: the larger panels tend to be laggier than the smaller panels. The first 0-lag LCD they tested was 19". Since then, they've found others, including some larger ones, but the general trend holds.

I'm not sure why panel size would affect lag, but I think it's interesting to note that projectors, unlike flat panel TVs, have very small LCD panels. It's just the projected image that's large.
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