Input Lag of various projectors - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 424 Old 11-13-2008, 04:17 AM
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Scaling 720p to 1080 is alot different then the 80ms 1024X768.

The reon does significantly other advanced scaling for obscure resolutions, one of its strengths. It does nothing really moving 720p to 1080. I am testing right now and people over at ign claimed if it was that bad some of us benq owners should notice as one person said he heard the worst was 68ms, but so far none of us see this problem and there are other gamers in the benq thread. The tester also did not test this resolution with his other projectors. He only did 1080p.


Furthermore there is question and been question what exactly is in the benq. Even though is a reon its been scaled to bare bones with almost all of its processing not unlocked even questioning if the reon was pulled from the machine because it did not pass any more hqv tests then the ps3.


I would have liked to see the numbers at 720p which is native for most games at 60 hrtz compared.

You dont have to convince me anything about my projector, almost all of us owners are incredibly happy with it and it has received glowing reviews. Im still happy with the 50ms response time in the one test I dont think its that bad at all for a projector if that is the actual true response time, the one he went with measured 30 and I was told on ign many sets do 30-40. Its unfair to look at the 85ms because he did not do the 768 test with those projectors, only the 1080p.

According to one person not ideal for gaming, but Im testing it and trying connecting to different displays and i dont see any lag that my eyes can comprehend. I have this years panasonic plasma and this years lcd samsung with a game mode that was recomended by pc gamers, and split the signal and cant see any difference.

Also firmware in the benq is constantly changed 1.16 was updated but 2.01 was the latest, sync issues were a problem in previous firmware.
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post #122 of 424 Old 11-13-2008, 01:07 PM
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Here is a good example of processing lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2CZs...eature=related

On the right is the Panasonic AE2000, on the left the AE3000 with frame creation on. You'll notice the image is from the same source, but the image from the AE3000 is slightly behind the AE2000.
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post #123 of 424 Old 11-15-2008, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Now that we're back home, within reach of several Yodobashis...

Arghs.

Very frustrating day. Brought two laptops and my DSLR kit down to Yodobashi today, and was planning to buy a 120 GB Xbox HD (got into the beta for the new dashboard), test some projectors and get a release date for the TW4000.

  • They were sold out of the 120 GB HD
  • They're moving their projector room, and nothing is hooked up yet
  • They still don't know when the TW4000 is coming out


This time I got the business card of a guy who works in the department, after he told me that he should know a firm date by Monday and that they should have boxes ready to sell on the day it goes on sale.

Here's the one photo I did take today: (Projector room under construction)


(Also went to Bic Camera, where I had to wait forever for someone to listen to my question and then wait forever to find out they had no date or idea of when they would have a date for the TW4000.)

Sorry guys. I was hoping to get some tests for the TW3000, AE3000 and Z3000, but it was a no go at Yodobashi and Bic...

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post #124 of 424 Old 11-23-2008, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

Great thread, I'd love to see some info on the Sony vpl-hw10.

+1 (and + many more on behalf of all the gamers?)

Could some owner kindly do the measurements for HW10? Please
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post #125 of 424 Old 11-25-2008, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Go ahead and call me impetuous...I went ahead and paid for my TW4000 today, and it's arriving in the A.M. on Friday.

Basically, I was already leaning towards the TW4000 for more than a month, and with the 4000 costing less than the Epson or Panasonic over here (Japan) and the 3000 not having the blacks I wanted, I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of anything else in my budget being a better match for what I wanted, so I pulled the trigger, sight unseen.

(On topic, I also used half my points for a 5 year extended warranty, and the other half on a new Xbox 360, giving me two [one for the LCD TV, and the newer, quieter, HDMI-equipped, more energy efficient one for the new projector] Xbox 360s. I was playing on the LCD screen for a bit, and there was a tangible different in image lag, My Z3 projector felt more responsive. All in my head? I donno, I'm not too worried about it, I prefer gaming on a projector, so I just hope the TW4000 can be as fast as my Z3...)

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post #126 of 424 Old 11-25-2008, 08:37 AM
 
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Does anyone, anywhere have any spec the Pannys and the Epsons on frame delay in miliseconds.

miliseconds is the easiest way to interpret these delays.

Im confused as to wether we are disusing delays factors in the micro seconds? 10-50 milliseconds?300-700 miliseconds???!!!!!

can someone provide some more insight as to what type of delays we are talking about here or at least some ballpark estimates
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post #127 of 424 Old 11-25-2008, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by peteer01
I went ahead and paid for my TW4000 today, and it's arriving in the A.M. on Friday.

Congrats!

The Epson 6500 is the same thing correct? I'm sure many will be eager to read your thoughts on lag, as AVS will be selling the 6500 in Dec.

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post #128 of 424 Old 11-25-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Go ahead and call me impetuous...I went ahead and paid for my TW4000 today, and it's arriving in the A.M. on Friday.

Basically, I was already leaning towards the TW4000 for more than a month, and with the 4000 costing less than the Epson or Panasonic over here (Japan) and the 3000 not having the blacks I wanted, I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of anything else in my budget being a better match for what I wanted, so I pulled the trigger, sight unseen.

(On topic, I also used half my points for a 5 year extended warranty, and the other half on a new Xbox 360, giving me two [one for the LCD TV, and the newer, quieter, HDMI-equipped, more energy efficient one for the new projector] Xbox 360s. I was playing on the LCD screen for a bit, and there was a tangible different in image lag, My Z3 projector felt more responsive. All in my head? I donno, I'm not too worried about it, I prefer gaming on a projector, so I just hope the TW4000 can be as fast as my Z3...)



Congrats on your pre order, I look forward to your feedback. Be sure you get the 360 VGA cable, I bet the VGA input will bypass the Reon.
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post #129 of 424 Old 11-26-2008, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Congrats on your pre order, I look forward to your feedback. Be sure you get the 360 VGA cable, I bet the VGA input will bypass the Reon.

Ordered it today, showing up on Friday.

Planning to crack open the casing on it, so that I can connect the 360 through both HDMI and VGA to the TW4000, and play around with various settings, see what works best for PQ and what works best for image lag. Hopefully I'll have some good info to report shortly.

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post #130 of 424 Old 11-26-2008, 08:30 AM
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I can't wait to see some real-world impressions of the Epson, I've been waiting for the successor to the 1080UB for a few months now. And don't forget to try setting it to x.v color mode for the 360 through HDMI, as based on the settings you can't use with x.v color (as detailed in the manual), that may also bypass the Reon completely as well.
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post #131 of 424 Old 11-26-2008, 12:56 PM
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Hey, peteer1, congrats on the purchase!

Now that you own the TW4000, I was wondering. In addition to testing the input lag over HDMI and VGA, would it be possible for you to also connect your PC via S-video, so you can test out the projector's performance when de-interlacing is involved? Actually, it would be cool if Yodobashi would let you do that with the Panny as well.

Thanks in advance. Plugging in a NES and playing Super Mario Bros on a 110-inch screen is sort of a lifelong dream of mine.
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post #132 of 424 Old 11-26-2008, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Hey, peteer1, congrats on the purchase!

Now that you own the TW4000, I was wondering. In addition to testing the input lag over HDMI and VGA, would it be possible for you to also connect your PC via S-video, so you can test out the projector's performance when de-interlacing is involved? Actually, it would be cool if Yodobashi would let you do that with the Panny as well.

Thanks in advance. Plugging in a NES and playing Super Mario Bros on a 110-inch screen is sort of a lifelong dream of mine.

Super Mario Bros on a 110-inch screen? Mario's eye would be the size of a (square) penny! Does sound fun though.

Sadly, neither of my two laptops I have have an S-video out or any out video out other than VGA. (My wife's may?)

As for testing at Yodobashi, considering that the TW4000 is arriving at my home tomorrow, I don't have much reason to head back to Yodobashi any time soon, let alone with the SLR and computers...so my testing of other projectors isn't likely to happen any time soon...although I will be testing the TW4000 out, you can be sure.

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post #133 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 06:40 AM
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peteer01, will you be able to test your TW4000 for lag via HDMI? The PS3 doesn't have VGA.

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post #134 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

peteer01, will you be able to test your TW4000 for lag via HDMI? The PS3 doesn't have VGA.

No, sorry. Outside of the chance that my wife's laptop has an S-video out, I don't have any way to test with anything but VGA.

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post #135 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

No, sorry. Outside of the chance that my wife's laptop has an S-video out, I don't have any way to test with anything but VGA.

Go buy a Junk Sega Saturn at a Hard Off for a few bucks, and grab a Saturn S-Video cable. Japanese Sega Saturn had the best overall game lineup in console history IMO. You owe it to yourself to have a Sega Saturn parked next to that 360.
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post #136 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Go buy a Junk Sega Saturn at a Hard Off for a few bucks, and grab a Saturn S-Video cable. Japanese Sega Saturn had the best overall game lineup in console history IMO. You owe it to yourself to have a Sega Saturn parked next to that 360.

Man...I spent about as much on my Sega Saturn as I spend on my Xbox 360s and game collection now...but back then I was a high school/college student barely earning more than minimum wage.

Very fond memories of the Saturn and Dreamcast days.

In other news...I won't be posting for a few hours, because this just showed up.

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post #137 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 07:16 PM
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Wow, I guess they do exist.
Will be looking forward to your review.
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post #138 of 424 Old 11-27-2008, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, I guess they do exist.
Will be looking forward to your review.

The review will probably be a new thread, but here's the quick post with the lag results. First off, the results, in my book, are good.

It turns out that even in PC mode, frame creation is set to "normal" by default. I was unpleasantly surprised to see the Z3 beating the TW4000. Since there's only Japanese menus, I didn't look too closely at them until I was watching Transformers on HD DVD and realized there was some funky stuble action (the guy's stuble when he moved was super unnatural looking) and the audio was slightly off. That's when I realized frame creation was probably on by default, and after the movie I checked out the frame creation setting for PC. (Yup, it was on.) Turning off frame creation, I would say that the TW4000 is probably very slightly slower than the Z3, which is fast enough for me.

Here's the photos, with the setup for each photos in the description:
http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/sets/72157610292661868/

(Yeah, I'm just throwing them all up on flickr...I've got a fun new projector to go play with. The description for each photo says what projector and settings were used.)

I'd really like to hear that HDMI is as fast as VGA (as it should/could be?) so that I could just keep my Xbox 360 hooked up with that.

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post #139 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 07:18 AM
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Lag looks pretty good...can't wait to see the full stats on HDMI!

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post #140 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Lag looks pretty good...can't wait to see the full stats on HDMI!

I don't know what they'll be, but in my first day in Call of Duty: World at War with it, I definitely felt pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if it was faster over HDMI than my Z3 was over Component/D4.

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post #141 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

The review will probably be a new thread, but here's the quick post with the lag results. First off, the results, in my book, are good.

It turns out that even in PC mode, frame creation is set to "normal" by default. I was unpleasantly surprised to see the Z3 beating the TW4000. Since there's only Japanese menus, I didn't look too closely at them until I was watching Transformers on HD DVD and realized there was some funky stuble action (the guy's stuble when he moved was super unnatural looking) and the audio was slightly off. That's when I realized frame creation was probably on by default, and after the movie I checked out the frame creation setting for PC. (Yup, it was on.) Turning off frame creation, I would say that the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3, which is fast enough for me.

Here's the photos, with the setup for each photos in the description:
http://flickr.com/photos/peteer01/sets/72157610292661868/

(Yeah, I'm just throwing them all up on flickr...I've got a fun new projector to go play with. The description for each photo says what projector and settings were used.)

I'd really like to hear that HDMI is as fast as VGA (as it should/could be?) so that I could just keep my Xbox 360 hooked up with that.

I'm trying to interpret the photos I see on Flickr. It seems that the Z3 is on par with or ahead of the laptop, while the TW4000 (with frame creation off) is on par with or behind the laptop. Is my interpretation correct? If so, then how come you say the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3?
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post #142 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to interpret the photos I see on Flickr. It seems that the Z3 is on par with or ahead of the laptop, while the TW4000 (with frame creation off) is on par with or behind the laptop. Is my interpretation correct? If so, then how come you say the TW4000 is as fast or faster than the Z3?

You're absolutely right. Complete brain fart on my part.

When I first opened the projector and tested it out, I was bummed because it was obviously slower than the Z3...after realizing that frame creation was on even for the VGA input, I tested it again and saw the number were much closer to where they should be. I, likely projecting my desires on to the results, stupidly saw the numbers were usually the same or smaller than the PCs and thought "lower = faster". I slapped the results up with out looking at them, and I'm glad you caught my mistake now before I ran around telling everyone how fast the TW4000 is.

Yes, there is a noticable difference with the Z3 being faster than the TW4000...and the lack of available options while using the VGA input makes me think that there's no changing that.

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post #143 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

I don't know what they'll be, but in my first day in Call of Duty: World at War with it, I definitely felt pretty good. I wouldn't be surprised if it was faster over HDMI than my Z3 was over Component/D4.

So you're saying that gaming with HDMI works well?

I have the Panny AE700 and desperately want to upgrade. I play games about 70% of the time on my pj, with movies only constituting 30% of the time.
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post #144 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

You're absolutely right. Complete brain fart on my part.

When I first opened the projector and tested it out, I was bummed because it was obviously slower than the Z3...after realizing that frame creation was on even for the VGA input, I tested it again and saw the number were much closer to where they should be. I, likely projecting my desires on to the results, stupidly saw the numbers were usually the same or smaller than the PCs and thought "lower = faster". I slapped the results up with out looking at them, and I'm glad you caught my mistake now before I ran around telling everyone how fast the TW4000 is.

Yes, there is a noticable difference with the Z3 being faster than the TW4000...and the lack of available options while using the VGA input makes me think that there's no changing that.


Ouch. Well, have you tried enabling x.v.Color to see if the kicks the Reon into bypass mode?
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post #145 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 03:11 PM
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with those sorts of numbers on the epson, exactly how much of a difference would that make while playing games? ive never owned a projector but am looking at getting one soon...it seems with frame creation off the epson was keeping up at the best while the sanyo was ahead sometimes...are the measurements on the epson "normal" so to speak for a projector?
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post #146 of 424 Old 11-28-2008, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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So you're saying that gaming with HDMI works well?

Yes. I specifically bought a VGA cable because I fully expected that to be tangibly faster than HDMI. While there may be a difference, I thought it played over HDMI very responsively while looking absolutely fantastic. Based on my gaming yesterday, I fully expect to continue gaming through HDMI. (There may be some clear benefit that someone else can find to using VGA that might change my mind, but after years of gaming with compenent with my Z3, the TW4000 feels quite responsive through HDMI. I do have noise reduction, frame creation, etc... all turned off for gaming.)
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Originally Posted by WaveyD4vey View Post

with those sorts of numbers on the epson, exactly how much of a difference would that make while playing games?...are the measurements on the epson "normal" so to speak for a projector?

There are probably faster 1080p LCD projectors than this. While the difference in gameplay isn't big enough for me to see compared to my Z3, some hardcore twitch gamers may be able to detect the difference. Perhaps the TW4000 is unable to bypass the Reon, perhaps these numbers are extremely similar to their past projectors, I don't know exactly. (To be clear, all my shots earlier in the thread are with my Dell computer, which someone pointed out is not giving true 60Hz, so the shots yesterday were all done with my wife's laptop, so that's why I'm not exactly sure how the other projectors would have responded with this laptop.)
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Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Well, have you tried enabling x.v.Color to see if the kicks the Reon into bypass mode?

I can select x.v.Color mode for HDMI, but not for VGA. I'd love to see what difference, if any, this makes through HDMI...hopefully someone else can shed some light on this?

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post #147 of 424 Old 11-29-2008, 05:03 AM
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As a avid gamer, I am glad to see a thread on input lag. Input lag with all of these fancy image processors is the bane of gamers everywhere! I went through the same thing trying to find a widescreen 24" LCD for my computer. Come to find out that most screens not only have lag, but significant lag. A good fast display for most people would be a half frame (8ms) or less of input lag. An acceptable display would be one full frame (16ms) of lag. Anything 32ms or over in my opinion is a show-stopper.
To the original poster, you must test with a CRT screen and not a laptop LCD. Your laptop screen will have lag and unless you test your laptop versus a CRT, you will not know how much lag. So your results are skewed to begin with. Altough, there are some LCD's like the one that I found for my computer, based on TN screen technology, that have 2ms or less of input lag.
I personally am looking at the Panasonic AE3000 as it has a input lag reduction gaming mode. Has anyone yet tested how fast the AE3000 is in this mode? Here is a quote from the Projector Central review of the AE3000:

"Gaming Mode. As far as gaming is concerned, video delay is not a good thing, and audio delay does not fix the problem. So the AE3000 has a feature which is not called Gaming Mode, but should be. It is called Frame Response, and it lets you adjust the speed of frame delivery from the buffer. Your options are "Normal" and "Fast." "Normal" will provide normal video processing and results in a frame delay of about 3 frames (assuming Frame Creation is off). "Fast" will eliminate some of the standard video processing overhead and cuts frame delay to about 1.5 frames. You can see the effect on lip synch when switching between Normal and Fast, as lip synch problems pretty much disappear in Fast mode. There is no way for a video picture to appear instantaneously with zero delay on any digital video display, so the Fast frame delivery feature on the AE3000 is about as good as it gets. Put the AE3000 into Fast frame response mode, select Dynamic calibration with a few color tweaks, and you end up with a magnificent high resolution gaming system.

(By the way, we tried to activate Frame Creation while setting Frame Response to "fast" to see if the projector would explode. Apparently, the engineers anticipated this. The AE3000 simply defaults to Frame Creation and ignores the fast Frame Response command. The AE3000 knows when it is in the hands of a stupid user.)"

He does not say how he came upon these numbers he is quoting. He says 1.5 frames of lag, or about 24ms in gaming mode! That is barely passable if it is true. The quoted number of three frames, or 48ms for normal mode is truely horrible. That is almost an entire 1/20th of a second which is really noticeable. I think you would have some lip sync issues watching movies with that much lag.

If the lag on the AE3000 really is that slow, I might have to look into other projectors like the Sanyo PLV-Z3000. Please, keep the posts coming on this important issue!
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post #148 of 424 Old 11-29-2008, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post

If the lag on the AE3000 really is that bad, I might have to look into other projectors like the Sanyo PLV-Z3000. Please, keep the posts coming on this important issue!

Panasonic projectors are very laggy. It's well known in these parts that Panasonic's Game Mode/Selective frame response option merely lower's the lag to that of an average non-gaming specific projector without a game mode.
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post #149 of 424 Old 11-29-2008, 07:52 AM
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1.5 frames of lag at 60hz input is 24ms, not 48. Your other numbers are off by 2x as well.
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post #150 of 424 Old 11-29-2008, 08:47 AM
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Yes, you are correct. I have edited the numbers. I am pretty sensitive when it comes to input lag so the projector with the lowest numbers will be the one I purchase.
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