Input Lag of various projectors - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 02:35 AM
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Sure Thing:

Basically all projectors that feature an elaborate picture processing chip run have an input lag of around 1 frame (30ms). The cheaper processors with less picture enhancing capabilities usually are hardly ever over 16ms delay: Epson TW3800 Infocus IN82.

From what I experienced while testing around 8-10 projectors all that matters is the included picture processor. I discussed each result with my Home Cinema Dealer and he told me which chip was included in which projector. In the end he was able to "predict" the lag of a projector I was about to test by the processor included.

Basically that leaves us gamers with 3 options:

1.) Buy an older/cheaper projector with a decent picture quality (i.E Epson TW3800 or Infocus IN 82) and be happy with the compromise between picture quality in movies and low input lag. Good picture processors simply create input lag.

2.) Buy 2 Projectors 1 for Gaming, 1 for Movies

3.) Buy an up to date modell with an elaborate pixel processing chip and connect your computer via a short high quality VGA Cable. I am unsure how "bad" the picture itself will be and if that really "eliminates" all input lag since I did not test that yet. Could anyone give that a shot ? Ideally on a D-Ila JVC HD350 or the Sanyo Z3000 since I really liked the movie picture and Desktop sharpness of those projectors.

Pictures will follow on Sunday - promised =)

regards,

frex
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post #242 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frexit View Post

Sure Thing:


3.) Buy an up to date modell with an elaborate pixel processing chip and connect your computer via a short high quality VGA Cable. I am unsure how "bad" the picture itself will be and if that really "eliminates" all input lag since I did not test that yet. Could anyone give that a shot ? Ideally on a D-Ila JVC HD350 or the Sanyo Z3000 since I really liked the movie picture and Desktop sharpness of those projectors.

Pictures will follow on Sunday - promised =)

regards,

frex

I have the RS10/HD350 and will be happy to test but I can only connect HDMI via DVI adapter or S-video. I don't have VGA (is that component?) on my PC
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post #243 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 03:29 AM
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I am almost 100% positive that you got VGA on your PC. That is the "classical" D-Sub screen connection which we used for around 10-15 years now.

In Case your PC only got a DVI Out there should be an adapter to VGA. (Almost every grafics card gets shipped with one of those in the box.)

According to common sense the analog transmission of picture signals is not suitable for resolutions beyond 1600x1200 and a Full HD resolution (1920x1080) could significantly reduce sharpness and convergence. The better the cable and output of the grafic card the better the picture will be. Accordingly the question is wether that picture is good enough for gaming purposes..

regards,

frex

PS: This is a VGA cable:

This is the adapter i was talking about:


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post #244 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 03:41 AM
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My Bad: The RS2 does not support D-Sub. Only the HD750 features a D-Sub connector.

regards,

frex
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post #245 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 06:35 AM
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I thought that it was already determined that VGA only circumvents the processor on only some projectors.
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post #246 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 06:39 AM
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Quote:


1.) Buy an older/cheaper projector with a decent picture quality (i.E Epson TW3800 or Infocus IN 82) and be happy with the compromise between picture quality in movies and low input lag. Good picture processors simply create input lag.

As somebody else pointed out in this thread, the newer Infocus IN83 uses the same picture processor as the IN82, so that's one newer option that wouldn't compromise on lag.

As regards VGA, my expectation is that those of you testing it will probably get essentially identical lag to HDMI. Over at behardware.com, they test monitors for lag, and they've said that it always comes out the same regardless of which connection they use. Additionally, I used to have a Samsung DLP TV which I tested for lag, and it came out the same regardless of whether I used HDMI or VGA. The only contributors that made a difference were resolution (requiring upscaling or not), and whether or not the signal was interlaced.
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post #247 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 12:00 PM
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Deuce, that is exactly what I've read on these forums as well, possibly even earlier in this very thread.

By the way, I'm still amazed at how Samsung gets away with such poor lag. I've read so much about their lag and the last time I was in Best Buy, every Samsung that was next to a Sony or a Panasonic, the image was way behind the others. Booo!
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post #248 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

By the way, I'm still amazed at how Samsung gets away with such poor lag. I've read so much about their lag and the last time I was in Best Buy, every Samsung that was next to a Sony or a Panasonic, the image was way behind the others. Booo!

...and that's a good part of the reason why I *used* to own that TV.

Btw, there's a bit of a meme that DLP TVs have worse lag than others. I don't think that's true, and can't think of any reason why it would be. I think that Samsung's DLPs are pretty much entirely responsible for the rumor.
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post #249 of 424 Old 03-27-2009, 04:06 PM
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I thinks it's mostly about the processor. The W5000 uses the Reon processor and the IN82/IN83 uses the Pixelworks processor, yet both are DLP and the W5000 has lag but the IN82/IN83 does not. Same with LCD, The 6500UB and the 1080UB are both LCD, but the 6500UB uses the Reon processor and the 1080UB uses the Pixelworks processor, and again the 6500UB has lag but the 1080UB does not. So it's not really a DLP vs LCD thing. There are no fast LCOS projectors as far as I'm aware of, but that could be due to the lack of facter processors for them, I don't know.
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post #250 of 424 Old 03-29-2009, 08:54 PM
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I tried to connect my PC to the PJ last night but no luck.... I don't know whether my adaptor is bad or what the problem is. I even tried through the S-Video but got nothing! this is pretty bad news as I had hoped to watch some shows via my PC.
I have to think about this some more and figure out the problem. If i ever do get this resolved rest assured that the first thing I'll do is post lag figures.
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post #251 of 424 Old 03-29-2009, 08:59 PM
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The 6500ub uses both the Reon and Pixelworks. The 6500ub's frame interpolation comes from Pixelworks - I actually just read that on the Projectorreviews blog on Frame interpolation.
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post #252 of 424 Old 03-30-2009, 07:27 AM
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Just having a Pixelworks doesn't make it fast, just so we don't assume that. It's the previous generation Pixelworks PW390 processor that's fast, not the new one that the 6500UB uses (the PW9800). Just sayin'.

The Epson 1080, 1080UB and 6100, Sanyo Z700 and IN82/83 all use the PW390. I expect this to be the last year that this processor is used, since it doesn't support 120hz or interpolation, which the marketing department drools over and ruins things for us gamers!

=Tommy v2=
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post #253 of 424 Old 04-18-2009, 01:12 PM
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Projector People showed five projectors on one wall simultaneously.

I was surprised to see that the Epson 6500UB picture lagged behind the others, even the Panasonic 3000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B6Wsgiiqnc

I suspect, though, that Frame Interpolation/Creation was turned on on both, so I suppose that doesn't really tell us anything with regards to gaming, since we gamers would/should turn off FI/FC when playing a fast-twitch game.
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post #254 of 424 Old 04-22-2009, 10:10 AM
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Sony HW10, using my regular settings (RCP, Gamma correction etc. on) hooked up to the HDMI port of my new HTPC, with a CRT hooked up to VGA using mirroring, is measuring 0-20ms delay at 60Hz, with it typically being 0-10ms.

I know mirroring maybe isn't the perfect solution, but I don't have a long enough VGA cable to hook up to the HW10 to use my splitter. (and I don't have anything for HDMI/DVI)



This one was my worst result of 30 photos taken at 1/1000s.
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post #255 of 424 Old 04-22-2009, 11:04 AM
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Excellent, andrewfee! The setup you're using is good (It's the same as they use to test monitors at behardware.com, and they've shown that HDMI doesn't add lag there). That puts the HW10 among the ranks of the fastest tested so far (maybe the fastest)! From what you've said, taking the average would show the lag to be under 15ms. It's great that we're finally getting some solid numbers on these projectors, and we've actually got a decent choice of fast ones.
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post #256 of 424 Old 04-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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In fact, with the Epson 6100, Sony HW10, and Infocus IN83, it looks like we've now got three excellent choices for every point along the price/performance axis, for those looking for an extremely low-lag projector. 6100 for entry-level, HW10 for mid-range, and IN83 for high-end.

What's even nicer is, there's no tradeoff. Each of those projectors happens to be a standout in its class.
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post #257 of 424 Old 04-22-2009, 11:16 PM
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I have a JVC RS10 and I'm waaaay into SFIV. I need to know how best to hook up my Xbox 360 to reduce lag. It is currently hooked up using component and set to 1080p. If the lag is bad this way, maybe it would be better to hook it up with VGA and set it to 720p (SFIV's resolution).

I'm willing to go pretty far to test this. Eg, I've contemplated opening a controller to wire an LED (see Testing CCC2 For Input Lag under "Miscellaneous vids") but I only have a digital camera that captures 30fps. I trust this way more than using a secondary LCD (or even CRT, though I don't own one), which I think just has too many variables. I've read Rock Band 2 has an automated test, but I don't own it. I would buy it on eBay for ~$20 if it were accurate, except apparently it requires a microphone and/or guitar to do the test automatically. This makes it too expensive to try without being sure it can measure accurately.

Is anyone willing to test the RS10 using a 60fps digital recording?
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post #258 of 424 Old 04-23-2009, 04:00 AM
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Ok, well I decided to experiment. Here is a video showing my modded Xbox 360 controller. It now has an LED that lights when up is pressed:

http://n4te.com/misc/inputlag/testing123.avi

I then used my crappy digital camera to capture a video of me pressing up on the SFIV main menu. Here is the video, slowed down to about a frame every 2 seconds:

http://n4te.com/misc/inputlag/frames.avi

It looks like the camera caught the LED just as it was lighting up. I think we can assume that the button was pressed at the beginning of that frame. Two frames go by without the game's menu reacting, then by the third frame the menu has reacted.

The controller is of the wireless type. I don't have a wired controller. I have a charger pack so I could plug the controller into the Xbox 360 for this test, but I'm guessing the controller probably still transmits wirelessly? I guess testing it wouldn't hurt to see if the reaction time is better.

I highly doubt the game software does any intense activities that would lag when up is pressed on the main menu. If the Xbox 360 itself or the game are adding any lag, it is probably only a millisecond or two.

At 29.97 fps there is 33.36 ms per frame. A better video recorder would give us higher precision. This means that the delay from my button press to seeing the screen change was between 66 and 99 ms. This is the best possible and worse possible lag that the JVC RS10 can have when accepting component input, assuming my Casio Exilim EX-S10 actually captures at ~30 fps. I have a composite cable I will test soon for kicks, though I would never actually use that. Unfortunately I don't have an HDMI cable to test with. For those that don't know, the RS10 projector doesn't have a VGA input.

Are there any RS10 settings that might help? 66 to 99 ms isn't very good at all for SFIV considering one frame is 16 ms. That means everything I see is 4 to 6 frames behind. No wonder links are so hard! I broke the bank on this projector with plans to not upgrade for many (5+) years. I really need it to work better for SFIV!

Edit: Thinking about it a little (I'm a software engineer), games are typically single threaded and handle input in the game loop. This means that the game may delay reacting to input for up to one frame. Assuming the main menu is rendered at 60 fps (like the actual gameplay is), the reaction time may be off by 0 to 16 ms. This improves the RS10's best possible lag time to 50 ms, with the worst case scenario still at 99 ms.
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post #259 of 424 Old 04-23-2009, 03:41 PM
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I tested composite input and found it to consistently delay 4 to 5 frames at 30 fps, so 117 to 166 ms. I tested running at 720p component and got the same as 1080p component, 2 to 3 frames, so 50 to 99 ms. I did tests on the SFIV main menu and also the Xbox dashboard menu with the same results.

I could not find any settings on the RS10 that would affect the lag.

It seems there is no difference between plugged and unplugged controllers.

After running many more tests of component 1080p, sometimes it happens in 1 to 2 frames instead of 2 to 3 frames. This is because sometimes the camera catches the LED just as it lights up (resulting in 2 to 3 frames), and sometimes it lights up fully between frames (resulting in 1 to 2 frames). I believe 2 to 3 frames is accurate and the best I can measure with my 30 fps camera. Can anyone recommend a 60 or 120 fps camera I could borrow from a local store?

I tested HDMI and verified it is the same as component. The only input I have not tested is s-video.
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post #260 of 424 Old 04-24-2009, 06:47 AM
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HDMI would be the fastest because there is no digital -> analog -> digital conversion. Also be sure to set the output resolution of the gaming console to 1080p so the there is no resolution scaling taking place. This would have been my projector of choice had it not been for lag. Everyone here at my house is serious about gaming, so I had to go with the IN83. The image is stunning, especially the bright and mixed brightness scenes, but very dark scenes leave me wanting blacks even half as good as the RS10.
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post #261 of 424 Old 04-24-2009, 11:22 AM
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I still got 2-3 frames at 33 fps even with 1080p HDMI. The RS10 is almost perfect for movies. I'm pretty unhappy with the performance for playing SFIV though. This is a very timing sensitive game. I thought linking some of the combos was just really hard, but I now believe I am just 4 to 6 game frames behind. This is awkward playing locally and a huge disadvantage playing online, where internet lag compounds the problem. I have recently been using my HT more for SFIV than movies, and I love getting more use from the HT. It is just really frustrating that I'll be stuck with this lag for many years. It wasn't easy to convince the wife to drop so much cash on the RS10.
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post #262 of 424 Old 04-24-2009, 01:48 PM
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Hey, NaTeDoGG, while I'm sure there's lag there, it's probably not quite as many frames as you're thinking, since the XBox's processing is also being counted into that. I mean, the XBox needs to read the signal from your controller, process it, and decide the output, along with whatever other processing it's doing. I know you tried to account for that, but it's really anybody's guess how much lag is introduced by the console itself.

Do you have a CRT in the house too, by any chance? If so, you can try to do the same test with it as well. Then, you can subtract the lag you get from that from the lag you measured with your RS10, to get a more accurate number.

Anyhow, I know how you feel. When I spent all my money on my first HDTV (a laggy Samsung DLP), and then found out about the lag problem, I felt like I'd been kicked in the face. The annoying thing is, the manufacturers know about this issue, but they keep quiet about it, since not many users know enough about it to make a fuss, so they can get away with it.
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post #263 of 424 Old 04-25-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Anyhow, I know how you feel. When I spent all my money on my first HDTV (a laggy Samsung DLP), and then found out about the lag problem, I felt like I'd been kicked in the face. The annoying thing is, the manufacturers know about this issue, but they keep quiet about it, since not many users know enough about it to make a fuss, so they can get away with it.

I think the bigger problem is that consumers think very little about input lag. I am always astounded by the number of posts in every input lag thread that go on and about how input lag is all in your head, an imaginary concept, the vanity of crazed extreme gamers, and not noticeable to 'normal gamers' etc. And that's on AVSForum! Imagine the average consumer in a big-box store. Not to mention the confusion added by a chorus of other posters who will claim that the LCD response time of [4ms, 6ms, whatever] means that it is a low lag TV and great for gaming, when it may have 150+ ms of input lag.

Be assured my friend, if you care about input lag you are in the minority. No wonder most companies feel fine about slapping a 'game mode' label on a mode with 100ms of lag or more and calling it a day.
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post #264 of 424 Old 04-26-2009, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfee View Post

Sony HW10, using my regular settings (RCP, Gamma correction etc. on) hooked up to the HDMI port of my new HTPC, with a CRT hooked up to VGA using mirroring, is measuring 0-20ms delay at 60Hz, with it typically being 0-10ms.

I know mirroring maybe isn't the perfect solution, but I don't have a long enough VGA cable to hook up to the HW10 to use my splitter. (and I don't have anything for HDMI/DVI)



This one was my worst result of 30 photos taken at 1/1000s.

Amazing - the HW10 has pretty good processing, by all accounts, yet it has very very low input lag according to this. Very encouraging.
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post #265 of 424 Old 04-27-2009, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

I am always astounded by the number of posts in every input lag thread that go on and about how input lag is all in your head, an imaginary concept, the vanity of crazed extreme gamers, and not noticeable to 'normal gamers' etc. And that's on AVSForum! Imagine the average consumer in a big-box store. Not to mention the confusion added by a chorus of other posters who will claim that the LCD response time of [4ms, 6ms, whatever] means that it is a low lag TV and great for gaming, when it may have 150+ ms of input lag.

My personal pet peeve is all the folks who, in the midst of a discussion about input lag, including pictures of lag measurements, and a full explanation of what input lag is, and how it can affect your game even though you likely don't feel it, will interject with "Well, I use TV/projector X, and I don't feel any lag, so I think that one is okay." They're trying to be helpful, but they're more annoying because they're so common.
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post #266 of 424 Old 04-27-2009, 08:35 AM
 
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Simple Test:

Try moving your mouse in windows when using the VGA input on your projector.

Then try moving your mouse again using the HDMI input.
The movement will be more sluggish.

I own an ax200u and ae3000 and a 6500UB.
The differences are substantial.

Anyone with a brain stem would realize lag does exists and yes it does mess with your game.
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post #267 of 424 Old 04-28-2009, 05:04 PM
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We should start a watch dog group for this, somthing like the Association of Gaming Input Lag Exposure, or A.G.I.L.E.
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post #268 of 424 Old 04-28-2009, 06:18 PM
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What we should DEMAND in new projs is a menu option to run the proj with all extra picture enhancements turned off and in 1-1 display mode made for using computers. HTPC with films and gaming is 99% of my use anyway. And there the display adapter is doing most of the work anyway.

Shait Happenz...
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post #269 of 424 Old 04-29-2009, 02:59 AM
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AND, we want 75Hz/96Hz/100Hz possibilities for a smooth reproduction without jerking/stuttering. Many new projs today have only 60Hz as the highest poss. Not good enough.

Shait Happenz...
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post #270 of 424 Old 04-29-2009, 07:04 AM
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Excellent Point! Since there are several criteria that had been left behind when leaving CRT, there should be standard gaming certification levels that display devices could meet and advertise.

To start, the criteria should include motion blur, Hz, and of course input lag. To keep it simple for marketing, maybe it could be a scale from 0-10. Maybe rate each criteria from 0-100 and average them and then divide by 10.

Or how about a standard series of numbers to represent the criteria much like computer memory timing, like 42-47-60 to represent Blur-Lag-Hz and call it the Blurlaghz rating.
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