Dalite High Power or Acousticlly Transparent? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Anyone else try this?

Yes, Prior to ordering an AT VistaScope, I tested identical screen material with and without the AT microperf 2 applied.

Effect on the sound of a non AT screen is, predictably, utterly catastrophic.

Intelligibility is destroyed. Imaging, separation and soundstage is completely trashed. Its exactly as you would expect. Its like putting a heavy duty trash liner over your speaker


The effect of ATs is minimal and is exactly known for each screen material and perf.

I put 3 Genelec 324As behind one. The results were devastatingly good. Off axis performance was not an issue.

For those asking about the effect on the sound, if properly installed, your looking at around 1db at the higher end. Spectral decay (RT60) remains unimpaired.

Make sure nothing, at any masking position, blocks tweeter LOS to seating position and all should be well. AT masks are available anyway.


Hope this helps

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post #32 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

Mrlittlejeans,

are you glad you switched or do you miss your High power?

Scott

I watched the new Indiana Jones last night with the new screen. PQ wise, I kept wondering if it was not as sharp as the HP but having the sound come from behind the screen was awesome.

I miss the added brightness of the HP a bit when gaming, but not enough to contemplate hanging the HP up again. The HP is a roll down so I could hang it from the ceiling in front of the AT screen and only pull it down when I want to game.

To others using a woven AT screen, do you have any issues seeing interpixel gaps or focusing? I've used a piece of paper infront of the AT screen to aid in focusing.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #33 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

To others using a woven AT screen, do you have any issues seeing interpixel gaps or focusing? I've used a piece of paper infront of the AT screen to aid in focusing.

No, but then again between the high fill factor, 1080p and anamorphic lens, I really don't see gaps no matter how I focus it (not to say I can't get it sharp, I can).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitechnice View Post

Where's the link?

Thanks for the pictures that ask about entering/leaving a secure site 100 times

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #34 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

As was pointed out to you previously, that is 100% wrong.

Your information is incorrect and is simply another example of your HP evangelism.

Both have their advantages and applications. To say that HP has a fundamentally better image is wrong and grossly disingenuous.

I could say that none of the "no compromise" HTs on AVS use HP, and then attempt to claim its an inferior product. That would be totally misleading. The fact is correct, but the conclusion wrong.

Both are good solutions for the relevant install.

Well you had better explain clearly in detail because I don't think many people believe you.

Just because "no compromise" HT don't use HP usually means the PRO is trying to sell you a high priced screen and think the multiplex dim picture where you can see when it is not perfectly flat and reflects room light from all angles to wash out the picture is the ultimate standard of quality. I don't believe that.
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post #35 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmay View Post

Well you had better explain clearly in detail because I don't think many people believe you.

This argument carries no weight whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmay View Post

Just because "no compromise" HT don't use HP usually means the PRO is trying to sell you a high priced screen and think the multiplex dim picture where you can see when it is not perfectly flat and reflects room light from all angles to wash out the picture is the ultimate standard of quality. I don't believe that.

Part of being a "no compromise" HT is having a screen that IS (IS!) perfectly flat. NO COMPROMISE... DO IT RIGHT! That's what it means! No compromise means you manage your light properly. NO COMPROMISE... DO IT RIGHT!

That being said, from what I hear the HP does indeed seem to produce very fine results. It's just that my speakers can't be behind it.

More simply: If you're watching a screen that's not "perfectly flat", you're NOT in a "no compromise" HT.
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post #36 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

The high power material is also thicker than Dalite's matte white, etc and is why it is not necessarily as prone to wrinkles.

The HP isn't any less prone to wrinkles than any other screen. I've had 4 now (all pull downs) and they have all had wrinkles. One of the advantages of the HP is because of the way they reflect light back to the source, every dot sends light back to you, so you can't see the wrinkles (except on fast horizontal pans if you are looking for them under those relatively rare circumstances). But, like most other things (for most people), you get used to it and your brain ignores it for you.

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post #37 of 72 Old 10-27-2008, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK,
Got a sample(very large) on an AT screen(one of the newer weaves).
Put it front of my speaker, sounds great.
Here's my dilema now... The pic looks good on the screen but side by side with the HP it looks kinda dull in some scenes. Not all. The HP has that "pop".
I will say the blacks are definitly blacker.
My projector is calibrated for the HP, so that may help some.

Do you think once the HP is out my eyes would adjust. I don't see the material.
Speakers behind would be nice.
What to do, what to do????
Projector is Sony VW60. low lamp mode.

Thanks!!!
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post #38 of 72 Old 10-27-2008, 08:34 PM
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Well you won't have a HP next to the AT when you're actually watching.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #39 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

OK,
Got a sample(very large) on an AT screen(one of the newer weaves).
Put it front of my speaker, sounds great.
Here's my dilema now... The pic looks good on the screen but side by side with the HP it looks kinda dull in some scenes. Not all. The HP has that "pop".
I will say the blacks are definitly blacker.
My projector is calibrated for the HP, so that may help some.

Do you think once the HP is out my eyes would adjust. I don't see the material.
Speakers behind would be nice.
What to do, what to do????
Projector is Sony VW60. low lamp mode.

Thanks!!!


What's your actual screen size?

I have a 133" screen, and in order to get the lumens I desired when accounting for bulb aging, I went with a HP.

For me, the minor compromise in sound was well worth it for the vast improvement I find with a brighter picture on a larger screen.

As always, YMMV.

-Steve
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post #40 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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2:35 is 40.5" X 92"

16:9 is 48" X 85.5"

What do ya think at that screen size?

Thanks
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post #41 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 08:48 AM
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That's not a very large screen. Do you have enough room on the side to put the speakers?

The reason I went with the AT was because I built a screen that is 127" wide in a room that is 132" wide. I also bought some maggies which are wider than your average speaker and need to be a few feet out from all walls. This meant I wouldn't have been able to have my 110" highpower behind the speakers.

Then again, with that size screen, you probably don't need a highpower to get 12ftl if that is your target brightness (I didn't, but I liked the punch with video games. With movies, I like it a bit darker).

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #42 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 08:50 AM
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The simple question you need to ask yourself is if your PJ can, and will continue to, provide the fL number you need with a modest gain. If it can, you can select an AT screen.

If it cant you, need some help in the form of gain.

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post #43 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 09:51 AM
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For what it's worth I am now testing out a Da Lite High Power screen at home (sent to me by a forum member). Yup, it's darned bright and punchy, even with an old Panasonic AE900 projector in low bulb mode with over 2,000 hours on the bulb!

BUT...damn this screen has a "viewing cone" like nothing else. Get outside that narrow sweet spot and you really see the image brightness dropping off fast.
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post #44 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 09:57 AM
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Right,
and when you see that "drastic" drop off in brightness that's what you'll see when seated in the sweetspot of your of your non-HighPower screen.
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post #45 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

Right,
and when you see that "drastic" drop off in brightness that's what you'll see when seated in the sweetspot of your of your non-HighPower screen.

heh. That's the truth. Also, I found that as long as I was still in front of the screen, there was very little dropoff.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #46 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

2:35 is 40.5" X 92"

16:9 is 48" X 85.5"

What do ya think at that screen size?

Thanks

You need about 300-350 Lumens to hit 12ftL on those screens with no gain. An SMX-type AT material would drop that requirement about 15%. So you're looking at more like 260-300 Lumens if that's the material you have. I think that's in the realm of possibility for a VW60.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #47 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyR View Post

Right,
and when you see that "drastic" drop off in brightness that's what you'll see when seated in the sweetspot of your of your non-HighPower screen.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what "non-HighPower" screen it's being compared to and the viewing angles involved.

A friend of mine dropped over last night. He is no videophile per se but has owned a projection set up (he has a Panasonic projector like mine) with a gray screen for many years before I did. He enjoyed the image from front on but when he moved to some off-axis seats he was quite amazed at how the image changed. He even noticed it shifting in his seat. At the end, he found the viewing cone annoying and his view was that he really wouldn't want a screen that provided such an uneven viewing experience when watching movies with company.

I myself am having trouble with the notion too, the idea that if I'm in one position I'm not seeing what others are seeing, and visa versa. I haven't written the High Power off yet, but it certainly is presenting some issues I would rather not have to deal with.
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post #48 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 11:59 AM
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I love my hi power.

Anywhere in front of the screen is plenty bright, and off to the side is still very even and bright enough if you don't make yourself nuts by walking back and forth comparing.

It's been a non issue to me. I never sit off to the side when I go to a movie theater, so it's kind of irrelevent what the picture looks like from the side in my own home theater.
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post #49 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 01:11 PM
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I have a similar quandary. I just moved into a new house and I'm getting a basement HT ready for a projector in the December time frame. The room is long and narrow, 23' x 10' to be exact, and I have floorstanding speakers about a foot wide each, so plus a couple inches on each side i'm looking at knocking about 32" off my screen width and having the fronts pretty much flush against the side with the center angled up a bit from the floor (the ceiling is only 80" high, so not alot of room down there, either).

I'd love to have the extra screen width to possibly do a CIH setup with the Panasonic PT-3000 or just to get a bigger 16x9 screen, but that would necessitate the AT material. but with that, I could better position my front 3 speakers so they aren't flush / on the floor for a more natural soundstage. On the other hand, while I do have light control, ambient light viewing is still a concern for the WAF, video games, and having people over for sports or TV (I know I won't be wanting to sit in the dark to watch the superbowl). I could position the FP for an ideal HP viewing angle (about a foot above a sitting head), but that would also necessitate a bit of extra finagling, and ceiling mounting would be much easier IMO.

So I guess my question is, do I go for the extra size and speaker flexibility or for the image pop? Budget will also play a factor, and I know I can get a reasonably priced HP pull down, but I am not as clear as to the pricing for the AT material. What do I do? Help!!
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post #50 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

2:35 is 40.5" X 92"

16:9 is 48" X 85.5"

What do ya think at that screen size?

Thanks

The larger of your 2 dimensions is ~28 ft^2.

As others have mentioned, if you are looking for ~16-20 lumens with calibration and bulb againg, you should be able to do that withthe VW60 no problem without gain using the AT screen.

If you want more punch in the ~30 FL catagory, consider the HP.

And altho there is some change in gain side-to-side, you only notice it while moving. Even the non-optimal seats are noticably brighter than a unity- (or even nagative-) gain screen.

-Steve
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post #51 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 02:41 PM
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Hi Steve-

Are you still going with the HiPower screen, over there in Ashland ? Any aspirations of trading up from the Sony VW-60 ? You have a GREAT setup.
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post #52 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Hi Steve-

Are you still going with the HiPower screen, over there in Ashland ? Any aspirations of trading up from the Sony VW-60 ? You have a GREAT setup.

Hey Tom, how goes? Thanks for the kind words.

Yup, still running the same Hi Power you saw almost 2 years ago here in Ashburn, altho I did re-tension it to eliminate some sag that I intrpduced in my first go-round of building the frame.

So far I've not seen a significant enough inprovement in the 60 to consider eating the depreciation on the 50 and upgrading... and the 70 seems rather expensive with Sony's new pricing policy, given it's evolutionary improvements.

I figure in another 2-3 of years we'll be looking at 6-digit CR's, and perhaps LED or laser based units. I'll probably be ready to upgrade by then.

In the meantime, my surrent setup continues to wow me and everybody who sees it. Speed Racer on Blu Ray was a visual assault that demonstrates just how good the picture can be.

What did you end up doing for your install?

-Steve
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post #53 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 05:04 PM
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In the meantime, my current setup continues to wow me and everybody who sees it. Speed Racer on Blu Ray was a visual assault that demonstrates just how good the picture can be.

What did you end up doing for your install?[/quote]
Wellll...I'm still a fence-sitter for a few reasons, but I am stoked about the numbers being thrown around re that JVC RS-20 in combo with the HiPower. I think your basement completely "intimidated" me in the sense that I could not come anywhere close to the jaw-dropping experience that you exhibited (yes, "wow" is accurate), so I just ran out last February and bought a Sony SXRD 1080p rear projector ( 60 A-3000 ) to tide me over for about a year (coming up ! ) while quality went up some more (check) and prices went down some more (check). Yea, the VW-70 intrigues me, but for the $$$, the JVC RS-20 looks mighty good.
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post #54 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 06:44 PM
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Quote:


A friend of mine dropped over last night. He is no videophile per se but has owned a projection set up (he has a Panasonic projector like mine) with a gray screen for many years before I did. He enjoyed the image from front on but when he moved to some off-axis seats he was quite amazed at how the image changed. He even noticed it shifting in his seat. At the end, he found the viewing cone annoying and his view was that he really wouldn't want a screen that provided such an uneven viewing experience when watching movies with company.

I myself am having trouble with the notion too, the idea that if I'm in one position I'm not seeing what others are seeing, and visa versa. I haven't written the High Power off yet, but it certainly is presenting some issues I would rather not have to deal with.

This can be a concern. We have 16 feet of sofa in front of 118" of screen ( 196" wide with HDTV ). I don't find the picture shifts at all with either our Firehawk G3 r Da-Lite HCCV. No matter where you sit!

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post #55 of 72 Old 10-28-2008, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Anyone else try this?

Yes. When I first installed my 133" HP and fired it up, I forgot to move the speakers from behind the screen.

It was very muffled sounding, no highs at all.

Not surprising given that the HP is a thick vinyl-type material.

I agonized over HP vs AT, but just couldn't stomach the dim image (my first screen was the Dazian fabric).

I'm hoping to get the major benefit of AT (center speaker image up where it's supposed to be) with the Trinnov processing in the upcoming Sherwood Newcastle receiver.

Noah
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post #56 of 72 Old 10-29-2008, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Wellll...I'm still a fence-sitter for a few reasons, but I am stoked about the numbers being thrown around re that JVC RS-20 in combo with the HiPower. I think your basement completely "intimidated" me in the sense that I could not come anywhere close to the jaw-dropping experience that you exhibited (yes, "wow" is accurate), so I just ran out last February and bought a Sony SXRD 1080p rear projector ( 60 A-3000 ) to tide me over for about a year (coming up ! ) while quality went up some more (check) and prices went down some more (check). Yea, the VW-70 intrigues me, but for the $$$, the JVC RS-20 looks mighty good.

The JVC's do spound to be really nice units... I'll be interested in what you think of it should you decide to pull the trigger....

-Steve
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post #57 of 72 Old 10-29-2008, 03:36 PM
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Wrinkled High Powers?

I have the fixed version but need to go with a eletric roll down for my new location. I really like the high power material. Did you guys have the tensioned version of the screens and still got wrinkles? I think that would drive me crazy.

 

 

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post #58 of 72 Old 10-30-2008, 12:57 AM
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I have an electric; it has waves that you can see with room light but they're invisible w/a projected image, which is one of its well known advantages.

Noah
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post #59 of 72 Old 10-30-2008, 08:18 AM
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My Hi-Power ended up with some sagging/wrinkles because I didn't get the tension right on my first go-round in building my own fixed frame screen.

But as Noah said, you can't see it on the actual projected picture due the the retro-reflective nature of the screen.

Nonethless, I fixed it because I could see them when the PJ wasn't on and the can-lights were aiming downward on to the screen. If your screen is retractable when not in use... you may not care.

-Steve
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post #60 of 72 Old 01-03-2013, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post



An acoustically transparent HP would be interesting if even possible.

From your mouth to the HT God's ears; the Holy Grail of screens. smile.gif I know that some AT screen makers have looked into coatings for weaves, but the issue is clogging the openings. You would think that they could make the fabric strands out of a High Power-like material, then weave it into a fine surface that would have gain.
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