Dalite High Power or Acousticlly Transparent? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 10-20-2008, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted this here because I know allot of you already have one or the other of these and don't visit the screen forum.

I know these are kinda far apart in screen choices but it's where I am.
Total light control, Sony VW60, 92" wide screen.
Just looking for opinions and pros or cons.
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post #2 of 72 Old 10-20-2008, 08:30 PM
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depends on what you are focused on. Image or acoustics.

There is no doubt if you want the best image it's the High Power.

if you want slightly more accurate sound and a compromised image then a AT screen.

I tell most people if you sat someone down blind and evaluated a AT verses a properly setup uncompromised screen for sound, 1 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference. If you did the same comparison of image, 10 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference
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post #3 of 72 Old 10-20-2008, 08:36 PM
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Are you planning on "optimally" mounting the projector to get the full gain if going with a HP? If so, I'd think the blacks would suffer quite a bit with a 106" diagonal high power. I used a 119" with a non-optimally mounted VW60 and even then the blacks suffered a bit compared to a 1.4 gain Carada (110"). On the other hand, if you prefer squinting during bright scenes over inky blacks when watching Dark City, the VW60 is not very bright and a HP may work well. You could also just choke down the fixed iris or use an ND filter until the lamp ages. Also, if using a manual or electric, even the thick HP material is prone to waves and horizontal creases. I use a HP with my RS1 but it is mounted on a 2' extension pole from my 10' ceiling. When table mounted, I find it too bright (it has low lamp hours and is much brighter than the VW60)
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post #4 of 72 Old 10-20-2008, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Rob,
Yes projector will be mounted low(right above head) and it will be a fixed mount screen either way.

Thanks,
scott
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post #5 of 72 Old 10-20-2008, 09:14 PM
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To me it comes down to simply do I want my speakers hidden behind the screen? For me, the answer is yes, as having the sound sources at screen level evokes a more accurate, involving experience. Especially with dialogue, as the "disconnect" of having voices emanate from above or below the screen is eliminated.

Aesthetics are also a factor, as are limitations in the room itself.


If these factors are less important to you than a very, very bright image, then consider the HP.

Remember its properties, though, as it is retro-reflective. I had a 92" wide HP in my theater at one time. When my projector was ceiling mounted, there was a noticeable drop in the gain from initial experiments with it table mounted. But if you indeed have the projector mounted close to your head, it should offer better results for you than I had. My projector was mounted probably around 3 feet above my head.

Also, I had a very wide seating area, and the cone was not optimal for the far seats.

Hope these thoughts can be of some help as you try and figure this out.



Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

I posted this here because I know allot of you already have one or the other of these and don't visit the screen forum.

I know these are kinda far apart in screen choices but it's where I am.
Total light control, Sony VW60, 92" wide screen.
Just looking for opinions and pros or cons.

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post #6 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

I posted this here because I know allot of you already have one or the other of these and don't visit the screen forum.

I know these are kinda far apart in screen choices but it's where I am.
Total light control, Sony VW60, 92" wide screen.
Just looking for opinions and pros or cons.

Why are you considering an AT screen? I guess that's my first question. I use one, but that's because the size I wanted left no room for speakers anywhere but behind it. That said I notice no ill effects from the AT screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

if you want slightly more accurate sound and a compromised image then a AT screen.

I really question if the image is compromised with an AT screen or not....

Quote:


I tell most people if you sat someone down blind and evaluated a AT verses a properly setup uncompromised screen 1 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference. If you did the same comparison of image 10 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference

What would they see that's so obvious? Assuming you picked screens with the same gain. What are the compromises? If you can get the gain you need, what's wrong with an AT screen, visually?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #7 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Why are you considering an AT screen? I guess that's my first question. I use one, but that's because the size I wanted left no room for speakers anywhere but behind it. That said I notice no ill effects from the AT screen.

To get the sound "on the screen"
Right now I have in-wall speakers and it seems a bit disconnected.
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post #8 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:11 AM
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It depends on seating distance and other factors.

In my theater I sit 1.7 screen widths from the image. No one can tell the speakers are around the perimeter. Everyone can tell when I switch screen types for image.

It's really a catch 22. If you sit close enough to necessitate an AT screen...you can also see the screen material itself
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post #9 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:25 AM
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It's a personal trade-off.

Hi-Power: brighter image (if your geometry works, which it sounds like yours does)

AT screen: better sound imaging, better aesthetics (hidden speakers)

With a vw60, a light controlled room, and a your screen size (92" wide"), you should have plenty of light if you use a short to mid-throw distance. I would go with AT screen unless you need to use long throw.

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post #10 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I sit 9.5 feet and 12.5 feet from screen. (two rows and riser)
Does this affect any decision?
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post #11 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:47 AM
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[quote=Tryg;14908408]It depends on seating distance and other factors.

In my theater I sit 1.7 screen widths from the image. No one can tell the speakers are around the perimeter.[quote]

Yeah, if I had room on the sides I probably wouldn't have bothered with AT, but like I said, no room on the sides.

Quote:


Everyone can tell when I switch screen types for image.

It's really a catch 22. If you sit close enough to necessitate an AT screen...you can also see the screen material itself

What gives it away? Moire? Because at 1.4-1.5x width, where I sit, I can't see the screen structure at all (it's an SMX), I think you've got to be within 1x if not maybe 1x height to actually see the screen structure. And the weave is fine enough that even with my 1080p machine and 110" wide screen there's no moire since the one pixel still spans several holes in the mesh.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #12 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 07:00 AM
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scottyb

the best way to know if it's all right for you is to get a piece of Phifer sheerweave 4500 this is the same/similar material used in some popular brands. Try the 4400 too
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post #13 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Are you planning on "optimally" mounting the projector to get the full gain if going with a HP? If so, I'd think the blacks would suffer quite a bit with a 106" diagonal high power. I used a 119" with a non-optimally mounted VW60 and even then the blacks suffered a bit compared to a 1.4 gain Carada (110"). On the other hand, if you prefer squinting during bright scenes over inky blacks when watching Dark City, the VW60 is not very bright and a HP may work well. You could also just choke down the fixed iris or use an ND filter until the lamp ages. Also, if using a manual or electric, even the thick HP material is prone to waves and horizontal creases. I use a HP with my RS1 but it is mounted on a 2' extension pole from my 10' ceiling. When table mounted, I find it too bright (it has low lamp hours and is much brighter than the VW60)

If it's too bright, all you need do is turn down the adjustable aperture. Blacks won't suffer.

Edit: Oops; I thought we were talking about an RS10/20, but see we're not.
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post #14 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 09:08 AM
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Personally, since you already have the HP...I would stick with it (unless the audio really bothers you).
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post #15 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 10:06 AM
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A friend of mine placed his speakers behind a highpower, and it sounds fine. You might give that a try since you already have the screen. You might be surprised. I never really could believe those tiny holes worked anyway.

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

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post #16 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 01:18 PM
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I have used a highpower for the last few years and just built an AT screen this past weekend using the Phifer Sheerweave 4500, which I believe is the material used in the Seymour AV screen and similar to the material used in the SMX screens.

I like the experience of having the sound come from the screen rather than around it. I think it draws you in a bit more when you can't see the speakers. On the other hand, I had a hard time focusing the projector with the screen material. I had to use a piece of paper in front of the screen to properly focus as I couldn't see the pixel gaps on the screen material itself. I'm not sure if this is an issue unique to my setup or if it is common across woven AT screens. Either way, it doesn't appear soft from my viewing distance so I'm not too worried about it. I don't see any moire and I don't see the screen texture from my viewing distance.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #17 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Mrlittlejeans,

are you glad you switched or do you miss your High power?

Scott
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post #18 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

If you sit close enough to necessitate an AT screen...you can also see the screen material itself

Really? Even an SMX? I sit 10' from an SMX and can't see the screen material. I mounted the weave at 15 deg and there are no moire' patterns either. I was thinking of trying an HP sample out of curiosity. Maybe I shouldn't!
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post #19 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:14 PM
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I have had my SMX AT screen up for a few weeks now and not a single person that has came by to watch a movie or check out the room {atleast 50 ppl by now} have noticed the screen has a weave.

They all ask where are the speakers, I tell them they are behind the screen and the screen has a weave. They go up to the screen and say "Wow, thats cool"

Honestly in my room from 5 feet away you can't tell the 120" screen isn't solid white.
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post #20 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Any of you guys switch from a Highpower?
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post #21 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyb View Post

Any of you guys switch from a Highpower?

Not me. I haven't even seen a HP. Ignorance is bliss?
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post #22 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

Really? Even an SMX? I sit 10' from an SMX and can't see the screen material. I mounted the weave at 15 deg and there are no moire' patterns either. I was thinking of trying an HP sample out of curiosity. Maybe I shouldn't!

How close do you need to be to see the weave on the SMX? My rows are 8.5 and 12.5 feet away and was mostly concerned about the front row. I really like the idea of the AT screen and it wouldn't be easy to get the projector at the rght height for a HP screen.
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post #23 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tds1 View Post

How close do you need to be to see the weave on the SMX? My rows are 8.5 and 12.5 feet away and was mostly concerned about the front row. I really like the idea of the AT screen and it wouldn't be easy to get the projector at the rght height for a HP screen.

I'll check tonight.

One thing the SMX screen does is throw light EVERYWHERE! There's no discernable dimming as far off axis as I can get in my theater. This can be a good thing and a bad thing. The walls, ceining and floor are really lit up. They are dark colors, but they do get a lot of light.
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post #24 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

A friend of mine placed his speakers behind a highpower, and it sounds fine. You might give that a try since you already have the screen. You might be surprised.

Anyone else try this?
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post #25 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

Anyone else try this?


The only reason I am not going to say definitively no is that I have never tried it, or heard of someone doing something like this.


That being said, though, my thoughts are putting your speakers behind a screen that is not acoustically transparent would be akin to playing your speakers with a blanket in front of them. Not gonna work....

If this were not the case, then there would be no market for AT screens... they exist for a really good reason....
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post #26 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradjohnsonfan View Post

The only reason I am not going to say definitively no is that I have never tried it, or heard of someone doing something like this.


That being said, though, my thoughts are putting your speakers behind a screen that is not acoustically transparent would be akin to playing your speakers with a blanket in front of them. Not gonna work....

If this were not the case, then there would be no market for AT screens... they exist for a really good reason....


That's what I would think as well. The high power material is also thicker than Dalite's matte white, etc and is why it is not necessarily as prone to wrinkles. An acoustically transparent HP would be interesting if even possible.
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post #27 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 07:23 PM
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Yeah, I'm really interested the SMX "high gain" material.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #28 of 72 Old 10-21-2008, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tds1 View Post

How close do you need to be to see the weave on the SMX? My rows are 8.5 and 12.5 feet away and was mostly concerned about the front row. I really like the idea of the AT screen and it wouldn't be easy to get the projector at the rght height for a HP screen.

I have a 10' wide screen. So at that size the pj's pixels are seen before the screen's perforations. Once the pixels become visible it's very difficult to tell when you're actually seeing the perforations. I see the pixels at about 8' from the screen. But your pixels would be smaller, as I assume your screen is smaller given that you're only sitting 8.5' back.

So I think you're OK. But, can't you get an SMX sample? That'd be the safest test.
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post #29 of 72 Old 10-22-2008, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

depends on what you are focused on. Image or acoustics.

There is no doubt if you want the best image it's the High Power.

if you want slightly more accurate sound and a compromised image then a AT screen.

I tell most people if you sat someone down blind and evaluated a AT verses a properly setup uncompromised screen for sound, 1 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference. If you did the same comparison of image, 10 out of 10 would be able to tell the difference


As was pointed out to you previously, that is 100% wrong.

Your information is incorrect and is simply another example of your HP evangelism.

Both have their advantages and applications. To say that HP has a fundamentally better image is wrong and grossly disingenuous.

I could say that none of the "no compromise" HTs on AVS use HP, and then attempt to claim its an inferior product. That would be totally misleading. The fact is correct, but the conclusion wrong.

Both are good solutions for the relevant install.

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