rs20 verses panny 3000 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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How much better is the rs20? Jason will you be comparing them soon?
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:13 PM
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I am suprised no one has commented on this - any takers - has anyone seen these side by side or in any kind of demo situation. A shoot out would be awesome.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Tywoniak View Post

I am suprised no one has commented on this - any takers - has anyone seen these side by side or in any kind of demo situation. A shoot out would be awesome.

It could be no one has commented because this same question has been asked in the other RS20 threads.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:52 PM
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I'm just curious - as most people want to compare the RS20 to the 3000. Does this mean it is a foregone conclusion that the Panny 3000 would perform better than the RS10??? Pricewise that comparison seems much more appropriate.
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:22 PM
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I am interested in this as well, but no one has seen them both side by side as they have not been released formally yet. I guess the only people that may have seen both would be the ones that attended cedia. We are gonna have to wait a little longer. Art's review will be up earlier next week.
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I think all of us in the rs20 crowd might be alittle scared that for the money it outperforms the jvc. Kinda like telling a kkk joke to a group of REV Write fans. lmao
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:50 AM
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I picked up a Sony HW10 SXRD projector today, and have an AE3000 coming next week. I will be reporting my observations in other threads but will echo them here.

To potentially the same degree as the JVC, the HW10 with it's greater native contrast, might fall victim to the AE3000's high 446:1 ANSI contrast and greater DI range.

We'll see. I'm thinking there will be scene compositions that serve one or the other best, and then one has to balance a broad range of performance.

While I have not calibrated the HW10, I have played around with some service menu adjustments of the auto iris that expands how dark the HW10 can go on low APL scenes, vastly helping the projector look good on the lower end.

If anyone has service menu access commands for the AE3000, please post or send them to me via a PM. I'd like to explore the AE3000 to the same degree I have been able to explore the HW10 so far.

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Old 10-29-2008, 08:14 AM
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I like my AE2000, and am certain the AE3000 will be a big improvement, but I'd like to go with anything but another LCD projector from Panasonic. I need powered focus and zoom, a good lens shift, and something that can throw a decent picture from 19 feet away, that limits me to JVC or Panasonic, it seems. Both my LCD projectors have had some sort of small imperfection that my eye was always drawn to, whether it was non-perfect convergence, or colour uniformity issues. I'm hoping a much more expensive model like the RS20 would be better built--no dust-blobs like the Panasonic's are notorious for--and no imperfections that are considered passable by a lower standard of quality control. For these reasons I'm hoping the RS20 is a way better projector then the AE3000, otherwise it'll be difficult to justify the higher price tag. Let's hope the reviews and comparisons get published soon.

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tds1 View Post

I'm just curious - as most people want to compare the RS20 to the 3000. Does this mean it is a foregone conclusion that the Panny 3000 would perform better than the RS10??? Pricewise that comparison seems much more appropriate.

Agreed, if you look at the data from Cine4Home's previews of the RS20 and AE3000, you'll see they're not really in the same class. The RS20 hits 40k:1 native in calibrated form, while the AE3000 only hits 3k:1 native and 13k:1 dynamic in calibrated form.

The RS10 supposedly can hit between 13k-20k:1 Native.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I think all of us in the rs20 crowd might be alittle scared that for the money it outperforms the jvc. Kinda like telling a kkk joke to a group of REV Write fans. lmao

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Only question is if it's "double the price" better or not.

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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

I picked up a Sony HW10 SXRD projector today, and have an AE3000 coming next week. I will be reporting my observations in other threads but will echo them here.

To potentially the same degree as the JVC, the HW10 with it's greater native contrast, might fall victim to the AE3000's high 446:1 ANSI contrast and greater DI range.

I can easilly see the SXRD machines having a tough time against the AE3000 since they both use DI, and apparently now have similar native CRs. But JVCs got nothing to worry about based on Cine4Home's data.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

...If anyone has service menu access commands for the AE3000, please post or send them to me via a PM. I'd like to explore the AE3000 to the same degree I have been able to explore the HW10 so far.

Try if it is the same code sequence of the AE2000/AE900:
REMOTE: POWER button ("POWER OFF"), RIGHT-ARROW ("CANCEL"), UP-ARROW, DOWN-ARROW, UP-ARROW, DOWN-ARROW, ENTER button.
Fernando
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Agreed, if you look at the data from Cine4Home's previews of the RS20 and AE3000, you'll see they're not really in the same class. The RS20 hits 40k:1 native in calibrated form, while the AE3000 only hits 3k:1 native and 13k:1 dynamic in calibrated form.

The RS10 supposedly can hit between 13k-20k:1 Native.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Only question is if it's "double the price" better or not.

I can easilly see the SXRD machines having a tough time against the AE3000 since they both use DI, and apparently now have similar native CRs. But JVCs got nothing to worry about based on Cine4Home's data.

I sounds like native on/off contrast is the ONLY important parameter...

So motion handling, colour accuracy, image processing, sharpness, ANSI contrast, uniformity, grey scale, "POP" etc. etc. etc. has nothing to do with how good a projector is???

For me at least, there are many projectors that are far better than the RS2 (haven't seen the R20), so I wouldn't be too sure the RS10 triumph its cheaper competition from Sony, Panasonic, Epson et al.

In the end it's the pictures the projectors throws that will tell which is better. Specs can only take you so far...
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferbal View Post

Try if it is the same code sequence of the AE2000/AE900:
REMOTE: POWER button ("POWER OFF"), RIGHT-ARROW ("CANCEL"), UP-ARROW, DOWN-ARROW, UP-ARROW, DOWN-ARROW, ENTER button.
Fernando

Thanks ferbal... I'll give it a try and confirm if it works.

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Old 10-29-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

....I can easilly see the SXRD machines having a tough time against the AE3000 since they both use DI, and apparently now have similar native CRs....


JVC doesn't have dynamic iris; it (RS20) uses 16 step fixed aperture.

EDIT:- After re-reading stranger89's original post, it's apparent that I mistook the context. He was talking about Sony (not JVC). Sony does have DI like the Panny.
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jigesh View Post

JVC doesn't have dynamic iris; it (RS20) uses 16 step fixed aperture.

Correct....no DI.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I sounds like native on/off contrast is the ONLY important parameter...

Of course not. But I know for me at least, it's probably the image parameter that is most obvious when it's performance is lacking.

Quote:


So motion handling, colour accuracy, image processing, sharpness, ANSI contrast, uniformity, grey scale, "POP" etc. etc. etc. has nothing to do with how good a projector is???

Of course they are, but we know the RS20 can have essentially perfect color accuracy, has a Reon VX processor (which is very good), ANSI contrast I'm not sure how important it really is (this is coming from a DLP fan), I could go on, but On/Off and Native contrast are really the distinguishing factor with these machines, other than price.

Quote:


For me at least, there are many projectors that are far better than the RS2 (haven't seen the R20), so I wouldn't be too sure the RS10 triumph its cheaper competition from Sony, Panasonic, Epson et al.

In the end it's the pictures the projectors throws that will tell which is better. Specs can only take you so far...

Very true. I was just responding to what I've seen most commonly lately:

"Ooh! The AE3000 has 60,000:1 On/Off contrast!"
"LCD has finally closed the contrast gap with "
etc.

No doubt LCD has made great strides this year, but that doesn't mean it's caught up. Looking at it objectively, LCD (based on the AE3000's reviews like Cine4Home) has basically caught up with Sony's SXRD and maybe DLP.

But JVC seems to be (somewhat quietly) making advancements almost as fast as LCD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigesh View Post

JVC doesn't have dynamic iris; it (RS20) uses 16 step fixed aperture.

Don't think I said anything different.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I can easilly see the SXRD machines having a tough time against the AE3000 since they both use DI, and apparently now have similar native CRs. But JVCs got nothing to worry about based on Cine4Home's data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigesh View Post

JVC doesn't have dynamic iris; it (RS20) uses 16 step fixed aperture.

True but he didn't say D-ILA (JVC) machines, he said SXRD (Sony) machines. Sony's does use dynamics iris's unlike the JVC's.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

..Don't think I said anything different.

JVS has "static" iris, not dynamic that's what I implied. I assumed you meant dynamic iris by acronym "DI." Dynamic iris has potential to its own problems as opposed to "set-it-and-forget-it" iris settings. I also assumed your comment was with respect to RS20, but as someone pointed out, Sony uses DI unlike JVC, you are not wrong - I just assumed a different context (JVC RS20).
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:36 PM
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"I sounds like native on/off contrast is the ONLY important parameter... "

No one said that.

As it has been for years, it's still the parameter most in need of technological improvement, though much less so.

That doesn't mean there might not be pj's with faults worse than low on/off CR, but that would be because of building to a price, not because the technology isn't yet available.

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Old 10-29-2008, 02:58 PM
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Noah, Stanger

Of course, on/off contrast is a VERY important parameter! But I dont think that if a projector has better on/off it's automatically better than everything else, which is the impression I got from stangers post:

"But JVCs got nothing to worry about based on Cine4Home's data."

What data besides the on/off contrast measurements are you referring to?

I interpreted it to be valid for both JVCs projectors. I also, like you, believe the RS20 will be a great projector that probably will best the LCDs in most ways (maybe not ANSI C). However, I'm not at all convinced the RS10 will, especially considering its skewed colours.
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Old 10-29-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigesh View Post

Dynamic iris has potential to its own problems as opposed to "set-it-and-forget-it" iris settings.

The two biggest problems I saw on early Sony DI, was being able to see the iris changing, and white balance errors when video processing was going on. The latter was real bad on the HS51 & 51A/60, and was sometimes referred to as "clay face" on the VW-100 Ruby.

However, if the VW40/VW60/VW70/VW80 & VW200 are equal or better than the HW10 as far as DI artifacts, it's no longer seems an issue. I have yet to see the auto iris at work and I see no white balance errors when DI is working on low to mid APL scenes with lights or other white elements in the scene composition. Reproduction looks perfectly natural.

I look forward to viewing a well calibrated VW80 & VW200 at some point, to see just how good SXRD could be. It's probably not worth the extra cabbage to me, but I'm curious.

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Old 10-29-2008, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

..However, if the VW40/VW60/VW70/VW80 & VW200 are equal or better than the HW10 as far as DI artifacts, it's no longer seems an issue. I have yet to see the auto iris at work and I see no white balance errors when DI is working on low to mid APL scenes with lights or other white elements in the scene composition. Reproduction looks perfectly natural...

Good to know. Thanks.
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:07 PM
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somehow JVC should have implemented a DIris instead of static
the advertised on off nrs are with iris closed fully and lumens are virtually gone
imho the JVCs will be used with iris almost fully opened and rely on their panels native on off ratios

LCD and Panasonic in particular seem to have made huge step ahead in terms of the ansi contrast which i find more important for that pop/3D effect that the race towards higher and higher contrast, especially once you're in CH set up.

DLP has to worry though. how many affordable brands still do DLP ???
Infocus ? sharp gone, yam gone, marantz gone or almost
SIM2 now has to propose sub $5K machines too.

DLP remains king of ANSI contrast though. and if optics follow remain the sharper of course (1CHIP).
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:46 AM
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Couldn't agree more. ANSI and Lumens are almost equal in my mind to contrast. The JVC's figures with Iris stepped up and low bulb were miserly (70 lumens?????) Brightness is critical for that pop effect as is ANSI for 3D and the Panny (on paper) seems to have twice the lumens as the JVC which IMO is huge
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Couldn't agree more. ANSI and Lumens are almost equal in my mind to contrast. The JVC's figures with Iris stepped up and low bulb were miserly (70 lumens?????) Brightness is critical for that pop effect as is ANSI for 3D and the Panny (on paper) seems to have twice the lumens as the JVC which IMO is huge

Ekkart has since said with their second HD750 that they were getting 40k:1 @ 400 lumens IIRC, which is a big improvement over their initial prepro model.

And by Cine4Homes own measurments, the AE3000 was actually a bit dimmer than the HD750 (depending on manual iris) once calibrated.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:21 AM
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Stanger

Interesting to know. Did they also say why the wide discrepancy? Hopefully those figures represent production models and not some "ringer" unit sent to a reviewer. Also, if they were both production that it doesn't reflect a wide variation in unit to unit performance either. Do you have a link to cine4home's 3000 preview? Couldn't find it on their site.
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:35 AM
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The first unit was preproduction. All ekkart said (as I recall) was that they got newer units (HD350 and HD750) to test again and the new ones were much brighter.

Here's the 3000 preview:
http://www.cine4home.de/news/PanaAE3...000Preview.htm

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Old 10-30-2008, 06:55 AM
 
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I forgot how to have it translated.
I know babelfish but how do i get it there?
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:06 AM
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Use Google translator.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Of course not. But I know for me at least, it's probably the image parameter that is most obvious when it's performance is lacking.



Of course they are, but we know the RS20 can have essentially perfect color accuracy, has a Reon VX processor (which is very good), ANSI contrast I'm not sure how important it really is (this is coming from a DLP fan), I could go on, but On/Off and Native contrast are really the distinguishing factor with these machines, other than price.



Very true. I was just responding to what I've seen most commonly lately:

"Ooh! The AE3000 has 60,000:1 On/Off contrast!"
"LCD has finally closed the contrast gap with "
etc.

No doubt LCD has made great strides this year, but that doesn't mean it's caught up. Looking at it objectively, LCD (based on the AE3000's reviews like Cine4Home) has basically caught up with Sony's SXRD and maybe DLP.

But JVC seems to be (somewhat quietly) making advancements almost as fast as LCD.

I don't think I could have said it better myself. Based on the new Cine4home numbers, the RS20 should be quite the performer.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:27 PM
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JVC specs differ from many others companies because you get a projector out of the box that is set to D65 at the factory. The specs therefore reflect this fact. Others do not set the projector to D65 so the specs by most are just a number, and a number I wouldnt put a lot of faith in. I like the fact that you now have an option for a 16 step lens with the RS20. Getting a contrast number using a dynamic iris is not telling the entire story. What I notice when it is utilized is that to date with any projector what I get is a black that is close to a JVC black but then I lose all the highlights in the image. Dynamic iris = less dynamic range in the image.
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