Official Planar PD8150 Owners Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #301 of 344 Old 11-17-2015, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
These RARELY show up on the used market. Unless you're okay with waiting for one to show up buying one new may be the best option. Swapping them out is easy. There's a PDF around that Planar/Runco made on how to do it. It shouldn't take more than 20 minutes to swap them.
I just contemplating putting the money towards a new projector. I have a anamorphic lens and play with sled for this one though... Perhaps I should double check my throw distance.

Thanks Seegs.

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post #302 of 344 Old 11-17-2015, 04:34 PM
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Here is the instructions for swapping out the lens. It's relatively straight forward once you see what has to be removed in order to get the lens out.

http://hometheaterphotos.com/project...eplacement.pdf
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post #303 of 344 Old 11-18-2015, 09:59 AM
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Should I replace the bulb at the same time?

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post #304 of 344 Old 11-18-2015, 11:24 AM
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post #305 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 02:04 AM
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I have an idea of 'upgrading' the light path of my PD8150 by treating internal metallic (reflective) surfaces with black velvet (only the path between the DMD and the lens). Any idea on the possible effects of this treatment? Is there a theoretical increase of contrast and decrease of brightness?
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post #306 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
I have an idea of 'upgrading' the light path of my PD8150 by treating internal metallic (reflective) surfaces with black velvet (only the path between the DMD and the lens). Any idea on the possible effects of this treatment? Is there a theoretical increase of contrast and decrease of brightness?
You'd want to be careful as it can get very hot inside the light path. The material you use should have a very high temperature rating before degradation occurs. If the material starts to fall apart you'll eventually end up with bit of it on the DMDs surface or worse, your projector will catch on fire.

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post #307 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 06:24 AM
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You have a very good point. I've thought about the risk of ignition but I doubt the temperature inside that part of the projector rises above 100°C, which should be safe for the fabric theoretically. But! I haven't thought about the little particles that will eventually come off and could potentially contaminate DMD/lens/lamp. I'll have to find an alternative then. Currenly I have black tape. I think it should do for the sake of the experiment. Then I can switch it to something more black if I like the result.
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post #308 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post
You have a very good point. I've thought about the risk of ignition but I doubt the temperature inside that part of the projector rises above 100°C, which should be safe for the fabric theoretically. But! I haven't thought about the little particles that will eventually come off and could potentially contaminate DMD/lens/lamp. I'll have to find an alternative then. Currenly I have black tape. I think it should do for the sake of the experiment. Then I can switch it to something more black if I like the result.
If you have or have access to an IR thermometer, run the unit with the lid off for a few hours and measure the external surfaces of the light path in the area you are talking about to get and idea.. not as hot as inside but some you know minimum temp

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post #309 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 08:39 AM
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If you do end up adding something to the light path, please let us know what kinds of contrast enhancements we can expect.

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post #310 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 10:22 AM
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I'd recommend trying it on a cheap "disposable" projector first to see if it helps before risking a great Planar
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post #311 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If you do end up adding something to the light path, please let us know what kinds of contrast enhancements we can expect.
Of course I will. I will do full pre- and post-calibration measurements and post the results. Also expect some photos. But it won't be before I order this: http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm, because I decided not to use half-measures.

I also happen to have several spare standard lenses for the Planar. I might also modify one of the lenses with this material for the test purposes. I will have to find an experienced person to do this job. I definitely expect a loss in brightness but I really wonder how much increase in contrast I will be able get.

Now the last part of the modification should be the switch to a DC4 chip which I am yet to obtain.

Last edited by Elix; 11-19-2015 at 02:18 PM.
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post #312 of 344 Old 11-19-2015, 02:47 PM
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Of course I will. But it won't be before I order this: http://www.protostar.biz/hitack.htm, because I decided not to use half-measures.
Good luck with that, last I had heard in the Black Theater thread the supplier here was not responding.. of course you may have better luck in your heck of the woods.

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post #313 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Good luck with that, last I had heard in the Black Theater thread the supplier here was not responding.. of course you may have better luck in your heck of the woods.
Thanks for the heads-up. I might have found an alternative:
http://www.firstlightoptics.com/misc...-material.html
http://www.edmundoptics.com/lab-prod...material/1502/
https://www.acktar-store.com/store/m...20x30cm-10pcs/ (wow it's expensive)

But I've decided that the black tape will serve as a proof-of-concept for now.
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post #314 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 06:44 AM
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Flat black powder coating!
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post #315 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 07:12 AM
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If I can offer a bit of advice as I used to modify my Sharp 12K, Benq W10000 and JVC RS series.

Fabric can easily catch on fire depending on where you put it in the light path.
The lamp would melt/burn a hole in the fabric after a month or so of usage in my case and I did test the fabric (synthetic felt) beforehand for flammability.
Taking zoom lenses apart is a tricky business. I am not familiar with Planar, but the few lenses I have taken apart were all greased up inside so marking the lens is extremely easy.
Ultra steady hands are a must. Cleaning the lens perfectly once smudged is almost impossible and I had a laboratory grade molecular level gel style cleaner...

Sticking anything inside a lens such as fabric is tough as the parts are moving all the time and there is very little room so unless you decide on fixed lens position lining a lens is very tricky.
Most of the DLP machines use shiny metal parts inside optical paths, all the mechanical irises, color wheel chamber etc.
After experimenting with painting the irises black I would say the paint can degrade quite quickly.

I have painted the entire DLP chamber black on my pj, all around the dlp chip and the prism. Based on all the mods I have performed I would say I got the biggest bang for my buck by controlling the light dump zone.

Second best would be painting the iris black. I would leave internals of the lens alone from my personal experience.

There is a special paper for flocking telescopes: "Protostar" flocking paper (http://www.fpi-protostar.com/flock.htm) that you might want to look into.

It would be interesting to see if you can make the Planar better.

My Benq after all the mods was spectacular and easly the best DLP machine ever created.

However after a month of sleepless nights testing I might have been slightly biased
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post #316 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 07:14 AM
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Flat black powder coating!
I don't need any powder particles flying in the light path.
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post #317 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 07:24 AM
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Not to PooPoo the idea, but I have to wonder why the manufactures would not do this exact same thing from the get go.. Unless it is because the coatings would be problematic and those that would not would add significant cost (less profit) to the manufacturing. Good luck and if you end up with a dead projector (god forbid) I would be interested in your Iris and controller.

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post #318 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mbonikow View Post
If I can offer a bit of advice as I used to modify my Sharp 12K, Benq W10000 and JVC RS series.

My Benq after all the mods was spectacular and easly the best DLP machine ever created
Wow, thanks for chiming in! I haven't thought about painting the iris, that might be a good idea. But it is difficult to access the iris on the Planar, maybe a little too risky. You say the paint degraded quickly. Do you still recommend using the paint? What was the paint?

Was the brightness affected perceptually? How much did the contrast improve, have you tried measuring it?

The things you describe regarding the fabric troubles me. The black tape that I have might also be affected, namely the sticky part. I will test it by sticking some of it on the heat pipe that runs rather hot here in the winter.
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Not to PooPoo the idea, but I have to wonder why the manufactures would not do this exact same thing from the get go.. Unless it is because the coatings would be problematic and those that would not would add significant cost (less profit) to the manufacturing. Good luck and if you end up with a dead projector (god forbid) I would be interested in your Iris and controller.
Haha! Thanks for your support!

P.S. Good, but not black enough) http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-248.../dp/B003CT4AKC

Last edited by Elix; 11-23-2015 at 07:40 AM.
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post #319 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post
Wow, thanks for chiming in! I haven't thought about painting the iris, that might be a good idea. But it is difficult to access the iris on the Planar, maybe a little too risky. You say the paint degraded quickly. Do you still recommend using the paint? What was the paint?

Was the brightness affected perceptually? How much did the contrast improve, have you tried measuring it?

The things you describe regarding the fabric troubles me. The black tape that I have might also be affected, namely the sticky part. I will test it by sticking some of it on the heat pipe that runs rather hot here in the winter.

Haha! Thanks for your support!
Yeah, well I have done my fair share of fixing things till they were broke!

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post #320 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Not to PooPoo the idea, but I have to wonder why the manufactures would not do this exact same thing from the get go.. Unless it is because the coatings would be problematic and those that would not would add significant cost (less profit) to the manufacturing. Good luck and if you end up with a dead projector (god forbid) I would be interested in your Iris and controller.
I would have to imagine a part of it is labor. I can only imagine some of this would be labor intensive. That may be why the Planar and other high end DLPs are so much better than the "cheap" ones.

Quote:
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Wow, thanks for chiming in! I haven't thought about painting the iris, that might be a good idea. But it is difficult to access the iris on the Planar, maybe a little too risky. You say the paint degraded quickly. Do you still recommend using the paint? What was the paint?
From what I've read, I wouldn't want to touch the iris on the Planar, it's an extremely light/fast piece, and I'd worry first about destroying it, but also about increasing the weight and throwing off the calibration.
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post #321 of 344 Old 11-23-2015, 08:55 AM
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From what I've read, I wouldn't want to touch the iris on the Planar, it's an extremely light/fast piece, and I'd worry first about destroying it, but also about increasing the weight and throwing off the calibration.
My thoughts precisely... I also wouldn't want to touch the sealed part of the light path.
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post #322 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 12:54 AM
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I have failed.
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post #323 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 01:59 AM
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I have failed.
In what way? I hope you aren't talking about damage.

I just saw the posts above and was going to mention that while painting things black may seem like the best approach I would tend to go another way if you are okay with reducing the white level a certain amount.

For instance, if you were okay with reducing the white level by 2x then adding silver colored metal to block half an opening before the chips and half the iris in the lens such that you are blocking the same path would be a way to improve on/off CR. The ANSI CR is already pretty high on these.

I can try to explain why blocking half of each opening tends to work well with DLP projectors if anybody wants, although I seem to recall a paper from TI that explained it better than I ever have.

I would also ask people to be very careful about running these projectors with things open as far as avoiding eye damage.

--Darin
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post #324 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 02:25 AM
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In what way? I hope you aren't talking about damage.
I will explain later with pictures by editing this post.

Edit.

I failed at upgrading my Planar because... the inner chamber where the light falls on the DMD and then redirects to the lens has a matte black coating already. It is blacker and more matte than the tape I was planning to treat it with. And I even did a stress-test for it by sticking it to the pot and boiling some water. It passed.

Black velvet is totally unsafe. The only material that'd provide an increase in contrast in this case (besides magic pixie dust) is vantablack:

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post #325 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 06:29 AM
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In what way? I hope you aren't talking about damage.

I just saw the posts above and was going to mention that while painting things black may seem like the best approach I would tend to go another way if you are okay with reducing the white level a certain amount.

For instance, if you were okay with reducing the white level by 2x then adding silver colored metal to block half an opening before the chips and half the iris in the lens such that you are blocking the same path would be a way to improve on/off CR. The ANSI CR is already pretty high on these.

I can try to explain why blocking half of each opening tends to work well with DLP projectors if anybody wants, although I seem to recall a paper from TI that explained it better than I ever have.

I would also ask people to be very careful about running these projectors with things open as far as avoiding eye damage.

--Darin
In the PD8150 the iris isn't in the lens. It's just before the relay optics as the light enters the sealed portion of the light engine. I would imagine the process and results are still similar for what you'd have him do.
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post #326 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 07:33 AM
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ohh no.. I hope the projector still works and only the modification attempt failed?
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post #327 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
In the PD8150 the iris isn't in the lens. It's just before the relay optics as the light enters the sealed portion of the light engine.
Thanks. I forgot that their dynamic part is inside the projector. I'm not sure what words to use since a fixed opening can still be an iris and they do have an iris in the lens. I seem to recall it is like a circle with part of it cut flat.

If I was doing it I would want to block maybe half the iris inside the projector so that at all iris positions it cuts above half the light. You wouldn't want to block the same half the DI will block or the other half, as both would be non-ideal. The DI should still cut about the same percentage of light as it closes.

Then after blocking half of that open up the front of the lens and put a piece of paper where the lens iris is. Put up a 10% gray and a black image and look at the pattern of the light going through that opening. If half of it is lit with the 10% gray pattern and half is pretty dark, then block the dark part.

Uniformity on the screen might go down some from this, but might still be worth it. I'm figuring a person could probably get 5k:1 to 6k:1 native on/off CR like this, depending on the chip. I don't recall what the Optoma H79 had. The limits of that chip in that projector seemed to be around 10k:1 or so native on/off CR with super closed openings.

When we get the first real 4K DLPs I wonder if their CRs will be any better than this Planar 8150. Wouldn't surprise me if they are actually worse than the 8150 for on/off CR.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #328 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Thanks. I forgot that their dynamic part is inside the projector. I'm not sure what words to use since a fixed opening can still be an iris and they do have an iris in the lens. I seem to recall it is like a circle with part of it cut flat.

If I was doing it I would want to block maybe half the iris inside the projector so that at all iris positions it cuts above half the light. You wouldn't want to block the same half the DI will block or the other half, as both would be non-ideal. The DI should still cut about the same percentage of light as it closes.

Then after blocking half of that open up the front of the lens and put a piece of paper where the lens iris is. Put up a 10% gray and a black image and look at the pattern of the light going through that opening. If half of it is lit with the 10% gray pattern and half is pretty dark, then block the dark part.

Uniformity on the screen might go down some from this, but might still be worth it. I'm figuring a person could probably get 5k:1 to 6k:1 native on/off CR like this, depending on the chip. I don't recall what the Optoma H79 had. The limits of that chip in that projector seemed to be around 10k:1 or so native on/off CR with super closed openings.

When we get the first real 4K DLPs I wonder if their CRs will be any better than this Planar 8150. Wouldn't surprise me if they are actually worse than the 8150 for on/off CR.

--Darin
This is the static iris in the lens:



The short throw lens option doesn't have this static iris and if I remember correctly neither lens options for the LED models have it either. Probably because the LEDs were already so dim that they didn't want the iris to take away more light. Same exact lenses are used minus the static iris in the Delta LED models.
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post #329 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 03:14 PM
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I've edited my previous post with the details of my failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Uniformity on the screen might go down some from this, but might still be worth it. I'm figuring a person could probably get 5k:1 to 6k:1 native on/off CR like this, depending on the chip. I don't recall what the Optoma H79 had. The limits of that chip in that projector seemed to be around 10k:1 or so native on/off CR with super closed openings.
Darin, thank you for chiming in. But I won't be doing these for two reasons. It's too risky and complicated. And there's not much brightness to begin with. I get around 12 ftL in low lamp on my puny 84" 1.0 screen (1000 hours on the lamp).
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post #330 of 344 Old 12-01-2015, 04:23 PM
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nice picture of my standard lens.

when I swapped on the short throw without the cat's eye there is definitely an impact on the native contrast. i'll have to see if I can dig up my comparison #'s.
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