Owners of 120 hz (frame interpolation) projector thread - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 90 Old 11-26-2008, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thought it would be cool to have a thread for those of us who own 120HZ frame interpolation projectors.

Didn't think I would like this feature so much, but now that I own one, it really is pretty cool...Just checked out, "Journey to the Center of the Earth" in 3D using Mode 2 (frame interpolation) on my Panny...Yikes!... Talk about a double wammy!...You have to see it!....Other flicks that look good are "Fith Element", "AEONFLUX", "KING KONG" on HD-DVD...and "Transformers"...Please post other recommendations...I'm addicted...
dogone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 90 Old 11-26-2008, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'll be in the 120Hz PJ camp as sooon as those "mid-December" puppies get to dealers.


I recommend watching animation, nature shows, concerts, and also pretty much anything you can think of that isn't 24fps. Doubling 60 frames per second always looks great to me, but 24fps content is hit or miss depending on taste.If you watch an old flick that you've seen 100 times without frame interpolation, it will most likely drown out some of the nostalgia.
ResOGlas is offline  
post #3 of 90 Old 11-26-2008, 06:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
stopdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Posts: 871
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm considering the Sanyo Z3000 or Epson 6500UB for my next projector and both have 120Hz mode.

The Sanyo Z3000 literature says when using 1080/24p direct input signal the frame rate is 96 frames/second and becomes 4:4 pulldown. When the signal is 60 frames / second it's doubled to 120 frames/second (5:5 pulldown ?). Is this unique to the Z3000 or do all 120Hz projectors do this?

http://www.sanyo-lcdp.com/english/pr...000/z3000.html
stopdog is offline  
post #4 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 12:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
d james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
The only footage I saw of 120 hz was on an LCD of POTC and it looked like it was unnatural, almost in fast motion. Do you guys ever get that impression? What do you like most about it? I'm still undecided between the 3000 and UB, and having the ability to use interpolation and 120 hz sounds like a worthy upgrade for only a small amount. Do you guys also love how the interpolation works. From Arts review, it sounded like it wasn't all that noticable or that needed except on very few scenes.
d james is offline  
post #5 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

The only footage I saw of 120 hz was on an LCD of POTC and it looked like it was unnatural, almost in fast motion. Do you guys ever get that impression? What do you like most about it? I'm still undecided between the 3000 and UB, and having the ability to use interpolation and 120 hz sounds like a worthy upgrade for only a small amount. Do you guys also love how the interpolation works. From Arts review, it sounded like it wasn't all that noticable or that needed except on very few scenes.

The great thing is you can use it when you want to. You don't have to use it all the time...But heck, I'm really starting to love it!...Mode 1 is barely noticable, and I use it on everything...Mode 2 is a little more dramatic, and I only use it on animations, sports, and fast pace action flicks like "Journey to the Center of the Earth" ...Transformers, etc...Can't imagine not having it now.
dogone is offline  
post #6 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 05:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Ballentine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What good is 120hz when Blu-ray discs' native rate is 1080p24 (24hz). I guess this feature is mainly useful for broadcast TV and you would need to turn it off when watching BD's.
John Ballentine is offline  
post #7 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 05:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CADOBHuK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ballentine, thats what interpolation means. Artificial increase in resolution or in this case, frequency.
CADOBHuK is offline  
post #8 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 05:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

What good is 120hz when Blu-ray discs' native rate is 1080p24 (24hz). I guess this feature is mainly useful for broadcast TV and you would need to turn it off when watching BD's.

With a low setting for frame interpolation, you can still have beneficial results with 24fps content by reducing or eliminating judder seen in slow panning scenes.
ResOGlas is offline  
post #9 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 07:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Deja Vu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: great white north
Posts: 4,264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 74
I saw a demo of Ratatouille on a Samsung LCD T.V. with frame interpolation. This was the most 3D presentation I've viewed outside of 3D films I've seen at the IMAX! I was floored! If the Panny and Epson can recreate this illusion then I'll be buying one of these two projectors. I'm not sure if simply increasing the frame rate (repeating the same frame 4 or 5 times) increases the depth or if adding new frames does.
Deja Vu is offline  
post #10 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I saw a demo of Ratatouille on a Samsung LCD T.V. with frame interpolation. This was the most 3D presentation I've viewed outside of 3D films I've seen at the IMAX! I was floored! If the Panny and Epson can recreate this illusion then I'll be buying one of these two projectors. I'm not sure if simply increasing the frame rate (repeating the same frame 4 or 5 times) increases the depth or if adding new frames does.

Repeating frames reduces blur and adds more noticeable judder, creating new frames is what causes the 3D effect.
ResOGlas is offline  
post #11 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 09:27 AM
Advanced Member
 
d james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Have you guys had any problems with delaying the audio properly for the extra frames?
d james is offline  
post #12 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 09:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Ballentine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

With a low setting for frame interpolation, you can still have beneficial results with 24fps content by reducing or eliminating judder seen in slow panning scenes.

The whole idea behind 24hz is to reduce judder seen in slow panning scenes to an insignificant amount (which it does quite effectively). So again - why would you want to mess w/ BD's "native" frame rate by using frame interpolation. (I'm just trying to understand)
John Ballentine is offline  
post #13 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Have you guys had any problems with delaying the audio properly for the extra frames?

I use the Pioneer Elite VSX-94 receiver and I don't even see or hear a delay...however it is easily correctible in the receiver if one needed to adjust. I keep the frame response to normal when using the frame creation Mode 2.
dogone is offline  
post #14 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 09:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 243
Motion Interpolation also is used to reduce the "blur" effect in moving images. So it will also reduce the blur of 24p images too, hence the super-sharp HD-video-like transformation you get of Blu Ray films presented on displays employing the MI.

Some people like the effect. I hate it for films.
R Harkness is offline  
post #15 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Motion Interpolation also is used to reduce the "blur" effect in moving images. So it will also reduce the blur of 24p images too, hence the super-sharp HD-video-like transformation you get of Blu Ray films presented on displays employing the MI.

Some people like the effect. I hate it for films.

I also hate it for drama's, comedies, and suspense flicks etc...But there are some movies (action packed) where it just knocks your socks off, and you gotta love it. You kinda got to let it grow on you...
dogone is offline  
post #16 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 10:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 243
In my case, while I don't like it for movies, I can certainly see it being useful for sports, especially Hockey on our HD projector.
R Harkness is offline  
post #17 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

In my case, while I don't like it for movies, I can certainly see it being useful for sports, especially Hockey on our HD projector.

Yeah, for sports it's a given...I guess what I'm trying to relay is that you really have to own one and play with it, get to know it and what it will, or will not do...Kinda like, owning a car and experiencing the features as opposed to reading about one or seeing one in a show room and making a brash judgement. I couldn'r believe what it did to my HD-DVD version of "A Stained Glass Christmas with Heavenly Carols" this tranfer has got to be the worst, jerky, choppy, HD transfer I have ever seen, and yet when I switched on the 120hz mode 2 it smoothed it out almost completely. (just a small example of having it as a useful option).
dogone is offline  
post #18 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 10:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

The whole idea behind 24hz is to reduce judder seen in slow panning scenes to an insignificant amount (which it does quite effectively). So again - why would you want to mess w/ BD's "native" frame rate by using frame interpolation. (I'm just trying to understand)

lol, do you own a display capable of 1080p/24 with proper 5:5 pulldown? It's a jerky mess!

The most pure way of watching 24fps content is having a display that can accept 1080p/24, does 5:5 pulldown,AND utilize techniques like black frame insertion that can somewhat simulate a film projector. Without black frame insertion, a display that properly displays 1080p24 is ugly and does not give you an authentic theatrical experience.

Heck, standard 3:2 pulldown appears less jerky than 1080p/24 5:5.
ResOGlas is offline  
post #19 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 11:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
d james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Does this feature make standard dvd really excel? Unfortunately I still watch two or so rented movies a night and improving on these dvds is very important
d james is offline  
post #20 of 90 Old 11-27-2008, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Does this feature make standard dvd really excel? Unfortunately I still watch two or so rented movies a night and improving on these dvds is very important

Actually it does...at least in this case it does...I am watching the old Christmas classic Scrooge with Alibaster Sim (my favorite)...and you know how jerky and old this flick is. Anyways, I flipped on the old frame interpolation and wow...it helped smooth it out considerably!...
dogone is offline  
post #21 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 05:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
John Ballentine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

lol, do you own a display capable of 1080p/24 with proper 5:5 pulldown? It's a jerky mess!

The most pure way of watching 24fps content is having a display that can accept 1080p/24, does 5:5 pulldown,AND utilize techniques like black frame insertion that can somewhat simulate a film projector. Without black frame insertion, a display that properly displays 1080p24 is ugly and does not give you an authentic theatrical experience.

Heck, standard 3:2 pulldown appears less jerky than 1080p/24 5:5.

My display accepts a 1080p24 signal - frame doubles to 1080p48 and then internally displays this at 96Hz. 1080i60 is deinterlaced to 1080p60 and displayed internally (with 3:2 progressive frame cadence) at 120Hz. No black frame insertion is used.

So is my display ugly and not give me an authentic theatrical experience?
John Ballentine is offline  
post #22 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 06:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Ballentine View Post

My display accepts a 1080p24 signal - frame doubles to 1080p48 and then internally displays this at 96Hz. 1080i60 is deinterlaced to 1080p60 and displayed internally (with 3:2 progressive frame cadence) at 120Hz. No black frame insertion is used.

So is my display ugly and not give me an authentic theatrical experience?

Only doubling the frames from 24 to 48 should not look as jerky as displaying each frame 5 times.

Remember how film cameras work. The film guides down into the projector at 24 frames a second. The black border between each individual film cell naturally reduces jerky judder and blur, which is what displays with black frame insertion are trying to replicate.
ResOGlas is offline  
post #23 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 07:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
monomer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: up north
Posts: 1,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

...The film guides down into the projector at 24 frames a second. The black border between each individual film cell naturally reduces jerky judder and blur

Not true... a mechanically linked rotating shutter (resembling a propeller) operating at 24 times per second (the speed of the film) is what blanks out the projection just long enough each time for the next film frame to be advanced into position. Without the shutter, the audience would experience flickering and jerky behavior (as was experienced during the early days of film projection)... its the movement of a new film frame being pulled into position in front of the lamp that causes the flickering and jerky look and so it was necessary to blank that out. No such thing happens with digital movie frames.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
Juicy
Doggie Jabber
monomer is offline  
post #24 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 12:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ResOGlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post

Not true... a mechanically linked rotating shutter (resembling a propeller) operating at 24 times per second (the speed of the film) is what blanks out the projection just long enough each time for the next film frame to be advanced into position. Without the shutter, the audience would experience flickering and jerky behavior (as was experienced the early days of film projection)... its the movement of a new frame being pulled into position in front of the lamp that causes the flickering and jerky look and thus was needed to be blanked out. No such thing happens with digital movie frames.



Thanks for the info!
ResOGlas is offline  
post #25 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 03:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sethk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
LCDs are essentially on all the time. The sample and hold effect is just as noticeable at 60hz as at 120hz (with no interpolation), except with 120hz there is no added judder from some frames being repeated twice, others thrice (which is what happens at 60hz). Even with simple 5:5 with no interpolation, in no way is this worse than 60hz. 60hz has two problems, 120hz just one.
sethk is offline  
post #26 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 08:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
d james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Since some of you guys love this frame interpolation, how much would you say it has changed or enhanced your movie experience if you were to throw a number on it?

For those with tvs that don't have the feature, is it hard to watch now that you are spoiled with this feature?

Finally does the picture look different in all scenes, or is it just in panning. What I'm wondering does the pj only impliment this feature on moving scenes, or all of them regardless?
d james is offline  
post #27 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
peteer01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 742
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

LCDs are essentially on all the time. The sample and hold effect is just as noticeable at 60hz as at 120hz (with no interpolation), except with 120hz there is no added judder from some frames being repeated twice, others thrice (which is what happens at 60hz). Even with simple 5:5 with no interpolation, in no way is this worse than 60hz. 60hz has two problems, 120hz just one.

Are any projectors displaying 24 fps material at 120Hz? Every 120Hz capable projector I've read about uses 96 Hz for 24 fps material. (They use even mutiples, so 120 Hz for 30/60, 100 Hz for 50 and 96 Hz for 24) (There was a very educational thread about this somewhere where it was explained why these panels aren't capable of black frame insertion, and why even multiples are used...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Finally does the picture look different in all scenes, or is it just in panning. What I'm wondering does the pj only impliment this feature on moving scenes, or all of them regardless?

All of them regardless. It's the scenes that don't have panning where it makes the movie look worse, IMO.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
peteer01 is offline  
post #28 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Since some of you guys love this frame interpolation, how much would you say it has changed or enhanced your movie experience if you were to throw a number on it?

For those with tvs that don't have the feature, is it hard to watch now that you are spoiled with this feature?

Finally does the picture look different in all scenes, or is it just in panning. What I'm wondering does the pj only impliment this feature on moving scenes, or all of them regardless?

I think for me it's still too premature to put a number on it because I am still learning what I can and cannot do. But I will say that I would miss it if I didn't have it. It is functioning all the time once implimented...You can see a kind of realistic almost 3D look throughout the viewing experience...Some movies are more dramatic than others. Also, you can use mode 1 for a less dramatic effect, or mode 2 for a more enhanced effect...As far as being spoiled and not being able to watch it on a smaller tv, I would have to say that is N/A because I won't watch tv on anything smaller than a 120" screen...and I have one of these in my theater and one in my bedroom, so I don't have to miss it...
dogone is offline  
post #29 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
d james's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post

I think for me it's still too premature to put a number on it because I am still learning what I can and cannot do. But I will say that I would miss it if I didn't have it. It is functioning all the time once implimented...You can see a kind of realistic almost 3D look throughout the viewing experience...Some movies are more dramatic than others. Also, you can use mode 1 for a less dramatic effect, or mode 2 for a more enhanced effect...As far as being spoiled and not being able to watch it on a smaller tv, I would have to say that is N/A because I won't watch tv on anything smaller than a 120" screen...and I have one of these in my theater and one in my bedroom, so I don't have to miss it...

Wow, you go all out, I have a hard enough time getting out of bed now, how do you do it?

You've really got my curiosity going with this feature, now I'm going to have to go down to best buy and see if they have any tvs displaying this, so I can see for myself. I saw one when they first came out and wasn't impressed, but I wasn't to critical and didn't give it much thought, now it sounds like a very useful feature.
d james is offline  
post #30 of 90 Old 11-28-2008, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
dogone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Wow, you go all out, I have a hard enough time getting out of bed now, how do you do it?

You've really got my curiosity going with this feature, now I'm going to have to go down to best buy and see if they have any tvs displaying this, so I can see for myself. I saw one when they first came out and wasn't impressed, but I wasn't to critical and didn't give it much thought, now it sounds like a very useful feature.

Keep in mind that this feature on a small 50" LCD panel appears much more pronounced...so it will not be an accurate depiction of how the PT-AE3000U looks. The 120hz on the Panny is no where near as intense as these smaller screen displays...
dogone is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off