Official TW4000 Owners Thread! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-30-2008, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sethk View Post

If possible, could you take pictures of a single pixel grid pattern up close (and from a resolution chart if happen to have such an image available) before you return the projector? It would be interesting to see comparison pictures from two different samples of the same model, taken by the same camera as comparison.

Great idea, I can do that with my HD-DVD of DVE...but I also remember seeing a better material than that with a link on these forums to burn to a DVD. I only have HD-DVD, Xbox 360 and my Vardia RD-X7. Any ideas on the best way to get the best pattern up?
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Have you tryed out any of the other picture modes to see how they look, and how bright they get. I'm sure this pj will have the same brightness capability as the last, at least hoping, for those daytime sports viewing.

Sorry, I tried a few mode with high lamp mode, and quickly switched back. Seems all the high lamp modes are at 7500K, and none of them looked close to good, so I switched back to low lamp mode as that's plenty bright for me.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 11-30-2008, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on the TW4000 situation.

Yodobashi is sold out, and would have to call Epson to confirm when they're getting more...so I figured I'd just call Epson myself. After a long conversation my wife and I had with 大竹 over at Epson's support line, I'm waiting for a call back.

First he told me they would fix it, which is unacceptable for something this expensive that stops working in your first full day with it.

Then he told me that for an exchange, that I would need to deal with Yodobashi directly, as they sold it to me. (To which I answered that they don't have any in stock, and that they would get said projector from Epson, so talking with Epson seemed more likely to expedite the replacement.)

Then he said there was nothing he could do, and that we'd need to wait for Yodobashi. (Unbelieveable that in a country where "The customer is god" is a business maxim, how useless he was. My wife asked if he was saying that our choice was either to wait however long it took for Yodobashi to get a replacement or to return the Epson today, get our money back, and buy a competitor's product today. He kept dancing around this with overly polite meaningless apologies for the situation in general, and I told him I was shocked that in our whole conversation, he made no attempts to understand what was wrong with the projector, no attempts to offer any solutions to rectify our situation, and no attempts to put us in contact with anyone who could either benefit from understanding our issue or offer us any kind of service/solution.)

Then he asked for the detailed summary, the serial number, the purchase information, our contacted details and all that, and said that someone else would get back to us later today.

Unbelieveable that the "The customer is god" head office has a one year warranty with crap phone service and no idea what a hotswappable RMA is, while the US office has a two year warranty, and definitely couldn't be any more useless than this guy was.

Anyway, just wanted to share the developments as they happen. I've said it before, the projector is great when it's working, so if they get me a working one ASAP, I'll be extremely satisfied. If I spent over $3700 (yes, that's what it costs here in Japan! I bought it at Yodobashi Camera specifically so I could exchange it if there was a problem...but they're sold out right now) to get the product on day one, only to have it last one day, Epson may not see me singing their praises around here very much.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 11-30-2008, 09:29 PM
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Wow...Im sure Epson as a whole is a great company but Im sure that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Apparently they dont care that there are plenty of people counting on your initial review on this projector.
Makes you think twice about their customer service.
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Unbelieveable that the "The customer is god" head office has a one year warranty with crap phone service and no idea what a hotswappable RMA is

I wish I didn't know what it was, because it sounds kinda'...sexy.
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bnk19 View Post

Wow...Im sure Epson as a whole is a great company but Im sure that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Apparently they dont care that there are plenty of people counting on your initial review on this projector.
Makes you think twice about their customer service.

Yeah, honestly, this experience is a bit disappointing. The bum projector I can live with...that's a legitimate risk when you're buying a cutting edge projector the day it comes out. The lack of service in rectifying that...

Epson called back and told my wife that as they said, because we purchased through Yodobashi, all Epson can do for us is repair it. (No hot swappable RMA, I'd have to do without the projector for several days at the minimum) No way I'm getting this thing repaired, so the next step is getting a firm date from Yodobashi for when they're getting their next TW4000 shipment in stock.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Still no idea what it is. I thought maybe it's possibly overheating...so I turned it on high altitude mode, which makes the fan run noticeably louder. Still crashing, only now it's crashing in less than 10 minutes. Since Epson isn't being helpful at all, I doubt I ever will know what the problem is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethk View Post

If possible, could you take pictures of a single pixel grid pattern up close (and from a resolution chart if happen to have such an image available) before you return the projector? It would be interesting to see comparison pictures from two different samples of the same model, taken by the same camera as comparison.

My wife just went to Yodobashi Camera in person after visiting her eye doctor, and they do have one box in stock, so I'm going there tonight to exchange it at Yodobashi Camera as soon as she gets home and we can head down there with my son.

I'm going to try to take a few photos up close with my 50mm f/1.4 lens that I can replicate with the replacement projector, but since it crashed while I was trying to set up DVE, and I'd like to get that replacement box ASAP, I'm not sure how many or what quality photos I'll be able to get.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:37 AM
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Man that really sucks they have such horrible customer service. I thought they would have the swap out replacement sent to you right away like theydo here in the states. Hopefully this next one isn't a lemon either.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:21 AM
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It's definitely an odd problem, but I don't think it's related to overheating. Sounds more like a power supply or another faulty component shutting down. That is good news Yodobashi has one left in stock, I'll cross my fingers for you that this one is perfect. I'm sure I don't have to say it but sometimes this is what you go threw to be an early adopter.
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Man that really sucks they have such horrible customer service. I thought they would have the swap out replacement sent to you right away like theydo here in the states. Hopefully this next one isn't a lemon either.

No kidding.

Although, the guy at Yodobashi definitely convinced me it was worth it to pay a little bit more for a brick and mortar store where I could talk to someone in person.
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Originally Posted by Zip3kx07 View Post

It's definitely an odd problem, but I don't think it's related to overheating. Sounds more like a power supply or another faulty component shutting down.

That's exactly what he said after I described my problem.

He also kindly extended my warranty (Epson 1 year, Yodobashi for the 4 after that) to the 28th from the 25th, as the 28th was the day I actually got it.

Not only was he knowledgeable and helpful, but he also didn't even open the box I was returning to make sure everything was there...he just apologized for the problems and said he hopes the new one works correctly and that I could exchange it again if it doesn't.

Now for some quick show and tell:

See anything strange about those arrows? That's Yodobashi's doing, not mine. That's how they kept it on the shelf as well...but it seems to work okay so far.

The only quick convergence photos I got from the first one:



Now here are the same two shots (less exposed because the bulb is brighter) with the new one:



Now, the left side looks great, but the right side actually looks like it has more convergence issues than the first one. Keep in mind that I'm using nearly 100% of the H lens shift, and the CA is unavoidable and expected with that setup:





Those are all handheld at f/1.4, so the right sides are taken at an angle that makes most of the image look out of focus, but I think the photos show what I'm trying to show. Quick and dirty, but hopefully effective.

On that note, I'm off to play a bit of COD on it.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:23 AM
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Those pics look pretty good to me. You have some fringing but not too bad. Take a few steps back and you won't see it at all. That is what counts. You will still have very good corner sharpness.

Affable Nitwit
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Those pics look pretty good to me. You have some fringing but not too bad. Take a few steps back and you won't see it at all. That is what counts. You will still have very good corner sharpness.

The sharpness of the projector is awesome. As was the one that died before it. Also, the CA and purple fringing are absolutely expected, and not visible at all under normal viewing conditions.

I was mildly concerned about the convergence at the right corners, but even looking for it at my normal gaming distance on static white text, it isn't visible. (I game at a smaller size than I watch 2.35:1 material, but I don't expect it to be visible there either.)

All said and done, I am very happy with the IQ of both TW4000s I've had, and I feel comfortable writing another mini review, based on my first few hours with each TW4000:

Pros:
Amazing IQ (Great blacks, great sharpness, fantastic picture on the default setting, the first one had great uniformity, and while I haven't checked the second, nothing has jumped out at me.)
Good convergence and good optics (Both boxes had good/great convergence, with sharp corners and fantastic focus with minimal CA and purple fringing)
Very quiet. The high altitude setting is a little louder, but neither the high altitude setting nor high lamp mode seemed loud.
English remote (No Japanese on it at all...unlike the menus)
Very pretty. I wasn't a fan of the 1080UB/TW2000 design, while I did like the AE2000's look...seeing the TW3000 in white, I wasn't sure how much I'd like the look of the TW4000, but it looks very sleek.
Reasonable image lag in HDMI mode. (Gaming in both HDMI mode and VGA mode, I don't feel an noticable difference between gaming in HDMI mode or VGA mode.)
Amazing auto iris. Even in fast mode, it's very, very quiet, and does an excellent job. I sit right next to the projector, and accidently forgot to change modes before gaming once and didn't hear it at all.
Gamma adjustment mode allows custom gamma and shows you the effects of the gamma by freezing the current screen when you enter the gamma menu.
4000 hours lamp life on low? (If it gets anywhere close to that, I'll be estatic)

Neutral:
Image lag a small amount more than my Z3. A way to bypass the Reon chip would likely speed things up to at least Z3 levels, as Pixelworks chips are fast. Until it's confirmed that the Z3000 or AE3000 is faster than the Z3, I'm not going to list this as a con. (It's not a noticeable difference for me going from the Z3 to this, but I was hoping that four years of improvements would mean a faster projector.)
The projector is quite big, which might surprise people who haven't seen it in person. If you're shelf mounting on a back wall, make sure you realize just how far it is from the back of the projector to the lens.

Cons:
Frame creation is enabled by default, even on the VGA input. There are two reasons I don't like this.
  1. Frame creation introduces noticeable image lag, which is bad for gaming and gave the appearance of lipsync issues during Transformers (It may just have looked unnatural, but it felt like noticable audio sync issues.)
  2. Frame creation does not look natural, and the default "normal" mode had jarring moments in scenes in both movies and one television show that I've watched with it.
My feeling is that while frame creation definitely helps some material, the default setting ("normal") on the TW4000 is not ready for prime time. I imagine it's how a lot of people felt about the very first auto irises. Ironically, by default, the auto iris is not enabled (and it does help quite a bit) while the frame creation is.
No English menus, probably because people aren't importing them from Japan anymore.
Dusty lenses. Despite the projectors being covered in a black bag and that bag wrapped in styrofoam wrap, and the lens being covered by a lens cap, both TW4000s had a substantial amount of dust on the front lens. Those of you with manual camera air blowers might want to be ready to be ready when you get your 6500s. The good news is that neither had any dust blobs, which is far more important.
30 second start up time, which feels longer, probably because I've had to turn on the first broken one so many times in the few days that I had it.

The "Cons" section may look as big as the "Pros" section, but don't let that fool you. Even with my first TW4000 having already gone to Projector Heaven in the sky, I have been nothing short of astounded by how good both of these projectors look. The blacks with the auto iris on are black. With my lens shift and off white walls, I'm amazed at how good this thing looks. When I slide open the door on the left (when the hallway is dark) and hang up black curtains on the right and lay down a dark blue blanket on the floor in front of the screen, the picture quality improves even more, which makes me think that the IQ is limited by my room, and even then, I'm not looking for anything better than this...it's better looking than I expected. (See the very first post if you want to know more about that) I do wish image lag was groundbreakingly fast, but it's fast enough for me, and I'm sure I'll put thousands of gaming hours on it without any complaints. (If this second one survives )

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:06 AM
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Thanks for the review. About frame creation, why not try it on the low setting instead of normal. Maybe, this will be more to your liking? Also, Im not a big fan of frame creation for movies (especially classics) but for Anime, sports, and Docs like planet earth, its pretty nice to have. Have you tried using frame creation on any of those types of programs?
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:16 PM
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When watching your 2.35 movies, and seeing the black bars top/below screen, are they very visible being a dark grey. I cant stand seeing those black bars being very obviously lighter than the surrounding black frame, and hoping this pj makes it very unnoticable.

What is the difference between normal and fast dynamic iris, is one for action and one for other movies? I would think fast would be best all the time.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Thanks for the review. About frame creation, why not try it on the low setting instead of normal. Maybe, this will be more to your liking? Also, Im not a big fan of frame creation for movies (especially classics) but for Anime, sports, and Docs like planet earth, its pretty nice to have. Have you tried using frame creation on any of those types of programs?

Played around with the low setting today while watching a sitcom. My wife couldn't really see a difference, but it eventually drove me nuts and I changed it back. I'll still try it for CGI, anime, sports and Planet Earth eventually, but I don't think I'm a fan. (And yes, I have seen scenes where it makes a great positive impact...there's just too many scenes where it detracts from the experience.)
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

When watching your 2.35 movies, and seeing the black bars top/below screen, are they very visible being a dark grey. I cant stand seeing those black bars being very obviously lighter than the surrounding black frame, and hoping this pj makes it very unnoticable.

What is the difference between normal and fast dynamic iris, is one for action and one for other movies? I would think fast would be best all the time.

If you check out the link to my screen thread in my signature, you'll see that I have a pretty odd sized screen. (2.22:1) That means a thin black bar either on top or bottom of 2.35:1 material. Additionally, I have a matte grey screen, rather than white, because I have bright walls and ceiling.

While you can see where the black of the projector differs very slightly from screen that is not being hit with the projector, it is night and day better than my Z3, and becomes more difficult to see with the auto iris on. If you check out the screen shots earlier, you'll see that the unused portion of my screen is only visible in the overexposed WB shot from Batman Begins. I don't notice it while watching films, but I can see it if I look for it.

To answer your question simply, I would not say they are "very visible", but if you're projecting your projector on a wall, you will be able to see where the projector ends if you look for it. Based on looking at several other projectors, I would say that this has better blacks than anything I've seen except for the HD750 (JVC RS20).

Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

What is the difference between normal and fast dynamic iris, is one for action and one for other movies? I would think fast would be best all the time.

Noise, maybe? I've got it on fast for everything but video games, where I don't use it.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:39 AM
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Does the projector has visible motion blur when interpolation is disabled?
How clearly can you see hand puppets on a black screen?
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

Does the projector has visible motion blur when interpolation is disabled?

Not sure exactly what you mean by this.
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Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

How clearly can you see hand puppets on a black screen?

Depends on the auto iris. With the auto iris off, you can see your hands pretty clearly, but with auto iris on, it gets very, very dark for black screens. In a pitch dark room, you can still see your hands, but if I open a door so that I can see my hands (but definitely not read a book), it becomes very difficult to see my hand's shadow on a black screen. So quite, quite black...but with auto iris on.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

I sit right next to the projector, and accidently forgot to change modes before gaming once and didn't hear it at all..

When you say change modes, is there anything else your doing besides disabling the iris before gaming?? I'm wondering what all would be the best to 'turn off' or 'set to' to decrease lag as much as possible
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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When you say change modes, is there anything else your doing besides disabling the iris before gaming?? I'm wondering what all would be the best to 'turn off' or 'set to' to decrease lag as much as possible

Using HDMI, there aren't that many options. NR is on by default, so my gaming default has that turned off, and has a 2.0 gamma instead of the default 2.2. (Greatly helps in games such as COD:WaW where there are dark levels) Besides turning the NR and auto iris off, I can't think of anything off the top of my head other than gamma that I've changed from my cinema setting for my HDMI gaming setting. (Frame creation is off on all my custom settings so far, despite it being on by default)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-02-2008, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Not sure exactly what you mean by this.

I meant, that DLP projectors don't have as much motion blur as the older LCD's, and I don't want my next projector to have as much motion blur as hc6000 did. Frame interpolation should've been a fix for this but since people say it looks unnatural and introduces artifacts, I wonder how does 6500ub do with motion when FI is off.
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:47 PM
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Thanks for all the tips Peteer01. So what you are suggesting is to keep the Auto Iris on for movies and turn it off for game will give you the best black for movie and less lagging for gaming.. ?
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by wlo
So what you are suggesting is to keep the Auto Iris on for movies and turn it off for game will give you the best black for movie and less lagging for gaming.. ?

I don't think the auto iris will cause video lag, but I don't know for sure?

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Old 12-02-2008, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

I meant, that DLP projectors don't have as much motion blur as the older LCD's, and I don't want my next projector to have as much motion blur as hc6000 did. Frame interpolation should've been a fix for this but since people say it looks unnatural and introduces artifacts, I wonder how does 6500ub do with motion when FI is off.

Got it. Put simply, my TW4000 has substantially less motion blur than my Z3 had, and it is not anything I notice on the TW4000. There is the unavoidable judder that comes with 24p material at 24p, but I expect that. Other people may be more sensitive to motion blur, especially those who are coming from DLP, but I'm not qualifed to say anything more than: I don't notice any, but that might be because I'm coming from a Z3.
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I don't think the auto iris will cause video lag, but I don't know for sure?

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Thanks for all the tips Peteer01. So what you are suggesting is to keep the Auto Iris on for movies and turn it off for game will give you the best black for movie and less lagging for gaming.. ?

Actually, while I turned auto iris off when I first started gaming, in case it introduced some gaming lag, the reason it's off now is that it's worse for most games. Most games have some kind of constant white text in the HUD, and that means the iris is wide open constantly, which which makes the blacks look dark grey. The auto iris off black level is not that much better, but it is better. Extra noise, worse blacks and possible image lag or just turn auto iris off...seemed like an easy choice, so I turned auto iris off for gaming.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:15 PM
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Hey thanks for answering all our questions so diligently. I noticed in the other thread that you didn't have to adjust the setting cause they are so good out of the box, did you leave everything right at factory or did you play with sharpness, or turn down the color temp? I remember reading on the 1080UB that it defaults to 7500, instead of 6500, so just wondering if you even changed that.

when you used the frame interpolation did ou have to adjust the sound delay with it set to normal or low. My stereo is ten years old and so it doesn't have audio delay and wondering if I will be able to use this feature without going crazy cause the words don't match up.
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Old 12-02-2008, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Hey thanks for answering all our questions so diligently.

Thanks for the kind words.
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I noticed in the other thread that you didn't have to adjust the setting cause they are so good out of the box, did you leave everything right at factory or did you play with sharpness, or turn down the color temp? I remember reading on the 1080UB that it defaults to 7500, instead of 6500, so just wondering if you even changed that.

Good question. The high lamp modes default to 7500K, but the Cinema Black settings are 6500K by default and in low lamp setting by default. None of the high lamp modes looked good enough for me to even try to fiddle with, and I don't really need the extra brightness, so I just stayed in Cinema Black.
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when you used the frame interpolation did ou have to adjust the sound delay with it set to normal or low. My stereo is ten years old and so it doesn't have audio delay and wondering if I will be able to use this feature without going crazy cause the words don't match up.

There is minor visible audio lag with frame interpolation on. That said, my wife couldn't see it even while I was pointing it out to her. If I liked what interpolation did, I'd look more seriously into having my receiver add some audio delay, but I don't like frame interpolation enough to make that worth looking into. If I watch something like a CG movie (maybe I'll try Beowulf on HD DVD) and think the frame interpolation is an improvement, maybe then I'll form a better opinion on how noticable the audio lag is.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:23 PM
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If you route your audio through a receiver that supports audio delay or lipsync delay you should be able to compensate for the frame creation lag. It should be in the neighborhood of 48ms.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:48 PM
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Thanks for the kind words.
Good question. The high lamp modes default to 7500K, but the Cinema Black settings are 6500K by default and in low lamp setting by default. None of the high lamp modes looked good enough for me to even try to fiddle with, and I don't really need the extra brightness, so I just stayed in Cinema Black.
There is minor visible audio lag with frame interpolation on. That said, my wife couldn't see it even while I was pointing it out to her. If I liked what interpolation did, I'd look more seriously into having my receiver add some audio delay, but I don't like frame interpolation enough to make that worth looking into. If I watch something like a CG movie (maybe I'll try Beowulf on HD DVD) and think the frame interpolation is an improvement, maybe then I'll form a better opinion on how noticable the audio lag is.

Much like yourself, frame interpolation was such a let down the first time I saw it. After owning 3 or 4 120Hz LCDs, I've found a use for the interpolation. Living in Japan, you should have no trouble finding animation. Also, home movies shot at 60fps look great.

You shouldn't use it for games, but download some game trailers on 360 and check them out on high. Has pretty much the same effect as CG films.
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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If you route your audio through a receiver that supports audio delay or lipsync delay you should be able to compensate for the frame creation lag. It should be in the neighborhood of 48ms.

Yeah, my receiver can adjust the audio delay, I just don't want to bother with it, since I plan to leave frame creation off by default for all my inputs. If a documentary or sports or CG movie does look good with it on, I know how to adjust the audio delay...but that additional step makes me that much less likely to use frame creation.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:31 AM
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Will the 4000 vertically expand 2.35 HD material to fill the full screen height?

Thanks

Noah
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Will the 4000 vertically expand 2.35 HD material to fill the full screen height?

Good question. I looked for this, but couldn't find it anywhere in the menus. Additionally, the 4000 does not have the rotatable Epson logo that the 6500 and 7500 have.

I'll double check the menus later, but I'm pretty sure it's not an option, regardless of the fact that it's Epson's flagship model over here.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:10 AM
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Additionally, the 4000 does not have the rotatable Epson logo that the 6500 and 7500 have.

Sounds like a deal breaker.

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