Official TW4000 Owners Thread! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Sounds like a deal breaker.

Fortunately, mine is shelf mounted, not ceiling mounted, so I didn't have to go through the process of deciding just how crazy that upside down logo would have made me every time I saw it.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #62 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Fortunately, mine is shelf mounted, not ceiling mounted, so I didn't have to go through the process of deciding just how crazy that upside down logo would have made me every time I saw it.

At what distance do pixels become visible on your screen?
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post #63 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

At what distance do pixels become visible on your screen?

I forgot to ask what size screen you are using.
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post #64 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 11:28 AM
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i am going to be getting this projector in a few weeks. this is my first setup so i am a little green.

I am getting a 106" screen. Any recommendations on distance i should try to hit? the max would be around 20' from the screen.
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post #65 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nysoundman View Post

i am going to be getting this projector in a few weeks. this is my first setup so i am a little green.

I am getting a 106" screen. Any recommendations on distance i should try to hit? the max would be around 20' from the screen.

Hmm, in general I think they say for all projectors is closer mounting equals brighter colors, but further mounting equals better contrast because the picture is dimmer. I like mine as close as possible to give lots of pop, unfortunately this never happens because of plaecment issues, but for me its ideal. It should be plenty bright with that 106 screen.
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post #66 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 03:59 PM
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Does anybody know what the reverse pulldown does? They talk about it in this article, but since its a transalation, it doesn't make much sense.
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Also Peteer01 is the zoom focus all in one knob? It looks like it from the pictures. On my HD70 I have to adjust one knob for zoom, then another for focus, but it looks like the 4000 is integrated together?
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post #67 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 04:09 PM
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an epson with convergence problems?? say it aint so

this is a repeat of last year when avs stopped selling them because jason had to reject so many pro cinema UB's after QC'ing them
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post #68 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

At what distance do pixels become visible on your screen?

Good question. I would need to check this the next time it's on, but my screen size 2216cm x 996cm. (Put simply, I watch 16x9 material at a 80" 16x9 diagonal size, and I watch 2:35 material at a 100" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size.

Pixels and a screen door are viewable from very close (I was looking closely at convergence and focus from about two feet away when I set it up) which made me pretty happy with the sharpness of this projector.

I'll check on the pixels viewable distance, but as someone who could see screen door clear as day from 12' on my 720p Z3 at the 100" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size, and could see screen door if I looked for it at 80" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size, there is no way I'd be able to see it on the new projector from 10' or 12'.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #69 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Good question. I looked for this, but couldn't find it anywhere in the menus. Additionally, the 4000 does not have the rotatable Epson logo that the 6500 and 7500 have.

I'll double check the menus later, but I'm pretty sure it's not an option, regardless of the fact that it's Epson's flagship model over here.

Sadly, the 4000 does not have anamorphic stretch capability. I got this information directly from an Epson representative (I think he may have been one of their engineers) at an invitation-only projector shootout held by high-end AV retailer AVAC in Ikebukuro this past Sunday. The Epson also doesn't have the ISF calibration tools that the 7500 has. If it had included both of those features, I would have picked it up on the spot since their "one-day only" price was very low compared to other dealers I've seen locally. I'm now weighing if I should get a 7500 from the U.S. or a 4000 and an external processor like the DVDO Edge for anamorphic stretch.

BTW, does anyone know exactly what the ISF features on the 7500 entail? I currently do calibrations for my monitors and PJ with an HCFR/Spyder 2 setup, but I plan to order an Eye-One/CalMan combo before the end of the year. Given this basic level of equipment, would the ISF features on the 7500 benefit me in any way? If not, my decision would be a lot easier.

I must say though, that the 4000 was by far my favorite projector at the shootout which included all the newest 1080p LCD and DILA/SXRD projectors. The room was almost pitch black with recessed matte black alcoves for each screen so that there was minimal spill from adjacent screens. Each projector was attended by two individuals who I assume were company reps from the respective companies, so I would think that they set up each PJ as well as possible. A friend who attended the event with me currently owns a JVC HD1, and even he told me I should get the Epson. He went in there specifically to look at the Sony HW-10 for use in his living room (he has a separate dedicated extention to his house just for his HD1 (RS-1) and associated equipment, which is almost unheard of in space-conscious Japan). There were some screen uniformity issues on the demo HW-10 model that were pretty apparent, especially side-by-side with the the other projectors. He's now considering the Epson instead, even though it is priced quite a bit above the Sony.

Peteer01, are you sure that your Epson doesn't have the rotating logo? According to their website (check the very bottom of the page below) for the 4000, it should be possible. You might want to double check it just in case.


http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio...0/point_07.htm
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post #70 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nysoundman View Post

i am going to be getting this projector in a few weeks. this is my first setup so i am a little green.

I am getting a 106" screen. Any recommendations on distance i should try to hit? the max would be around 20' from the screen.

When you say 100" screen, you mean diagonal? I've set the TW4000 3.08m back from the screen (just over 10 feet) because that puts me as close as possible for 100" 2.35:1 viewing, and allows me to have a very bright image even with a 0.8 gain matte screen using Cinema Black and low lamp mode. Zooming out to an 80" diagonal is no problems.

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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Hmm, in general I think they say for all projectors is closer mounting equals brighter colors, but further mounting equals better contrast because the picture is dimmer.

What James is saying seems to be the rule of thumb around here. This projector will be plenty bright for a 106" screen, but I'd still likely put my closer rather than farther if I were you. (Somewhere at or close to the 11 foot minimum throw) I don't think you'll have any complaints with blacks or contrast (at least I don't!), and you'll enjoy a very long bulb life time (4000 hours?) if you're always using it in low mode.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #71 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ktak View Post

I must say though, that the 4000 was by far my favorite projector at the shootout which included all the newest 1080p LCD and DILA/SXRD projectors. The room was almost pitch black with recessed matte black alcoves for each screen so that there was minimal spill from adjacent screens. Each projector was attended by two individuals who I assume were company reps from the respective companies, so I would think that they set up each PJ as well as possible. A friend who attended the event with me currently owns a JVC HD1, and even he told me I should get the Epson. He went in there specifically to look at the Sony HW-10 for use in his living room (he has a separate dedicated extention to his house just for his HD1 (RS-1) and associated equipment, which is almost unheard of in space-conscious Japan). There were some screen uniformity issues on the demo HW-10 model that were pretty apparent, especially side-by-side with the the other projectors. He's now considering the Epson instead, even though it is priced quite a bit above the Sony.

Wow. When you say the newest DILA, do you mean that the HD750 was there as well? That was the one projector I couldn't imagine the TW4000 hanging with...I saw it twice in CEATEC demos where I simply couldn't believe how good it looked. I know the pitch black bat cave with black velvet walls and black leather sofas gives it a huge advantage of the environments I've seen everything else in, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how the HD750 performed at the event you were at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ktak View Post

Peteer01, are you sure that your Epson doesn't have the rotating logo? According to their website (check the very bottom of the page below) for the 4000, it should be possible. You might want to double check it just in case.


http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio...0/point_07.htm

WHOO! My logo totally rotates! I couldn't figure it out before. Thanks for that, Ktak!

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #72 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Also Peteer01 is the zoom focus all in one knob? It looks like it from the pictures. On my HD70 I have to adjust one knob for zoom, then another for focus, but it looks like the 4000 is integrated together?

My Sanyo had a rotating front lens for focus and a lever on the size of the lens for zoom. The placement with the Epson is similar but more ergonomic, in that the front of the lens rotates for the focus, and the back half (barrel) of the lens rotates for the zoom. Very very similar to my primary non-fixed focal lens on my DSLR, and very easy to use in practice. The horizontal and vertical lens shift are also pretty easy to reach and use as/after you adjust focus and zoom.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #73 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Wow. When you say the newest DILA, do you mean that the HD750 was there as well? That was the one projector I couldn't imagine the TW4000 hanging with...I saw it twice in CEATEC demos where I simply couldn't believe how good it looked. I know the pitch black bat cave with black velvet walls and black leather sofas gives it a huge advantage of the environments I've seen everything else in, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how the HD750 performed at the event you were at.

I guess I should qualify my statement as "My favorite projector that I would be likely to buy." The HD750 is a couple of grand outside my price range (especially if I intend to do an anamorphic setup down the line).

For the shootout, they had the JVC HD350 on display, so I could only compare the Epson to that model side-by-side. The JVC was noticeably brighter and punchier than the Epson, but still suffered from the oversaturated colors that were trademarks of the HD1 and HD100. Photography is a longtime hobby of mine, so I'm kinda nitpicky about this area of image reproduction. The Epson, at least as set up at the shootout, had some of the truest skin tones and purest reds and yellows (no green tinge) of all the projectors there. There was one still shot that they showed of balls of colored yarn in a basket that was my favorite. On the JVC, the red ball looked like it was going to ignite any second. The Epson looked much more realistic. If I had to compare the respective images to slide photography, I would say that the JVC looks like Fuji Provia film and the Epson looked like Kodachrome.

They did have two HD750s in a separate dedicated room that was used for a BD Player/Recorder shootout. In absolute terms I would say it was best-looking PJ at the event when considering all aspects of image quality. However, since they weren't side-by-side with the other PJs, it's a bit more difficult to make an accurate comparison. I did notice that the colors on the HD750 seemed better balanced and less "hot" than the HD350 at the shootout, which added to my impression of the 750's quality. For my needs and budget though, the Epson comes amazingly close to the HD750 for less than half the price (in Japan).
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post #74 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ktak View Post

If I had to compare the respective images to slide photography, I would say that the JVC looks like Fuji Provia film and the Epson looked like Kodachrome.

I know what you mean when you say that, but only because of using DxO's film pack plugin, not because experience with the actual films. I very much like realistic colors, both in photography and on the screen, and I can see why you would be attracted to the Epson, as it's out of the box colors are fantastic.
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For my needs and budget though, the Epson comes amazingly close to the HD750 for less than half the price (in Japan).

And that's exactly what I was banking on when I purchased my TW4000. (And as this second box is working perfectly, it looks like I made a very good call.)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #75 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

Good question. I would need to check this this next time it's on, but my screen size 2216cm x 996cm. (Put simply, I watch 16x9 material at a 80" 16x9 diagonal size, and I watch 2:35 material at a 100" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size.

Pixels and a screen door are viewable from very close (I was looking closely at convergence and focus from about two feet away when I set it up) which made me pretty happy with the sharpness of this projector.

I'll check on the pixels viewable distance, but as someone who could see screen door clear as day from 12' on my 720p Z3 at the 100" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size, and could see screen door if I looked for it at 100" 16x9 diagonal equivalent size, there is no way I'd be able to see it on the new projector 10' or 12'.

Thanks for the response. The reason I asked is that pixel structure was visible (barely) in the screen shots that you posted the other day. So- based on your experience with this new epson I am going for it.
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post #76 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 09:00 PM
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Ktak. Other the the colours being more natural on the Epson, how else did the picture compare between it and the 350? Which one had better black levels? which one had more depth to the image? Which one had less motion blur? Ive narrowed it down to the JVC HD350 or the Epson 6500 (4000) Accurate colours are not a deal breaker for me and I wouldn't base my purchase on that factor. Please let me know as this will be very helpful in my decision.
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post #77 of 135 Old 12-03-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Ktak. Other the the colours being more natural on the Epson, how else did the picture compare between it and the 350? Which one had better black levels? which one had more depth to the image? Which one had less motion blur? Ive narrowed it down to the JVC HD350 or the Epson 6500 (4000) Accurate colours are not a deal breaker for me and I wouldn't base my purchase on that factor. Please let me know as this will be very helpful in my decision.

I know it sounds like the color quality on the Epson was my main consideration, but I was also very impressed by the other aspects of the Epson's picture. Being able to see all the projectors side-by-side being fed the same program material was very enlightening. The reason why I mention the colors so prominently is because the differences in performance between the Epson and the other PJs in other areas were more subtle to my eyes than the differences in color reproduction. Again, it comes down to individual priorities.

It's been a few days since the shootout, so everything I'm saying is based on my memory of the event. With that in mind, here are my impressions.

Black Level - The side-by-side comparison made it quite easy to see difference in black level between the different projectors in this regard. Through several different types of program material, I consistently considered the Epson to be second only to the JVC. When a program was paused on a full frame black background, the Sony HW-10 screen almost always "appeared" to be darker. But it was also during these moments that the uniformity issues with the Sony reared its ugly head. Once visible program material was shown, the perceived black level of the Epson was noticeably better in my opinion.

Contrast - One demo scene that was used was the "Jupiter and Beyond" chapter of 2001: A Space Odyssey where we see the monolith floating above Jupiter. This scene is challenging because there are localized bright objects (the sun, Jupiter, stars, moons) but at the same time the monolith is slowly turning. The view of the monolith ranges from visible highlights passing across its surface to pitch black as it almost disappears into the background , In this scene, the background stars looked brighter on the Epson while the blackness of space was comparable or slightly deeper compared to the Sony, Sanyo, Mitsubishi or Panasonic. One interesting thing I noticed is that in one part of the scene, the monolith completely disappeared on the Panasonic 3000 while it was still visible on all of the other PJs. Hopefully, this was just a setup issue.

Image depth - This is where I think the exaggerated colors of some projectors can actually help by giving the "illusion" of more image depth, especially when presented against a very bright or very dark background. That said, I never thought the Epson took a back seat to any of the projectors on display. The impression of realism provided by the accurate colors more than compensated for any lack of "pop" that it may have had when compared to the other projectors. Others may feel differently depending on their priorities. The JVC has an advantage in this regard because it is the brightest of the projectors by a considerable degree.

Sharpness - What can I say, the Mitsubishi is the one to beat in this regard. Because of my distance from the screen (due to the design of the demonstration, the closest any of us could get to the screen was around 12 feet) I couldn't compare the sharpness as well as I would have liked. But the Epson seemed at least as sharp as the Panasonic and Sony. The JVC "may" have been a bit sharper, but it's possible that the greater brightness just made certain details more visible at the distance we were standing. When I visited the Epson room later in the day and saw it on it's own, it certainly looked amazing. My friend who has the JVC HD1 said he thought the Epson was a bit sharper than his PJ, but without a side-by-side comparison his comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

I hope these observations help a little. I wish I could comment on motion blur, but I was more concerned about color, contrast, sharpness and black level performance.
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post #78 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark meyers View Post

At what distance do pixels become visible on your screen?

A quick test, it looks like individual pixels/screen door disappear at a viewing distance of about 75-80% of screen width. (I tried a few screen sizes)

Congrats on your order, I hope you're as happy with your projector as I am. (With my second one that is...first one had a very short life.)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #79 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 06:35 AM
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Thanks alot Ktak for your detailed impressions. I will post your impressions in the 6500 vs. RS10 thread. Do you think it would be worth 1500 to go with the RS10 over the Epson? How much deeper were the blacks on the JVC? was it very obvious or did you really have to look for it? I have a batcave (total light control) and black levels will benefit me a good deal. Do you know if the Epson had it's Dynamic Iris on? I hear it makes a big difference when it's turned on. Thanks again.

Here is the thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post15213870. Im sure your insight would be appreciated.
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post #80 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

About frame creation, why not try it on the low setting instead of normal. Maybe, this will be more to your liking? Also, Im not a big fan of frame creation for movies (especially classics) but for Anime, sports, and Docs like planet earth, its pretty nice to have. Have you tried using frame creation on any of those types of programs?

Frame creation seems like a good feature for sports. I watched ice hockey today on the TW4000 with it on, and while it wasn't night-and-day better, nothing jumped out at me as being unnatural. (I was using normal)

I figured I'd post this, as it's the first unqualified kind thing I've said about frame creation so far. It made me hopeful that CGI and Planet Earth could both benefit from the feature.

As for normal TV, after hockey, I increased the audio delay on my receive to try out some more CSI to see if it bugged me less if the audio sync issues were removed. Nope, certain facial/body movements seem too...unnatural. I've pretty much decided that while the feature does "work", the material that it improves for me is pretty limited, and not because of audio lag.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #81 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by peteer01 View Post

(Somewhere at or close to the 11 foot minimum throw)

This comment took me by surprise. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that to produce a focused image at a particular zoom setting and a specified size the the minimum throw distance is 11 feet? Alternatively, are you merely stating a fact: The minimum throw distance is 11 feet? That is deal breaker for me. My only experience is with CRTs (no zoom) and D-ILAs and mine has a long lens.

Thanks and my compliments on your contributions thus far.

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Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #82 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by peteer01
I turned off pretty much option for my gaming setting, and I thought it was great for gaming through HDMI. That said, I don't have any PCs that I can use to test it over HDMI, I could only test it through VGA, and there very, very few options available to turn on/off through VGA.

I'm curious, did you try playing games with all the Reon video options turned on (minus frame creation) to see if you could notice lag issues?

Oh and thanks for starting this thread, and all your input, including your video lag thread!

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post #83 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vlubbers View Post

This comment took me by surprise. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that to produce a focused image at a particular zoom setting and a specified size the the minimum throw distance is 11 feet?

I was specifically referring to the poster's 106" screen.

You can focus extremely close (as seen by my image lag test shots from about 3 or 4 feet from the projector) with no problems, but a 106" screen will require the projector to be 11 feet away or more in order to zoom to the proper size.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #84 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

I'm curious, did you try playing games with all the Reon video options turned on (minus frame creation) to see if you could notice lag issues?

Oh and thanks for starting this thread, and all your input, including your video lag thread!

Thanks for the kind words.

As for the Reon video options, there aren't very many available to turn on and off with a 1080p signal through HDMI. The options that are available to me in the settings are dependent upon the input that I'm using. The settings that are off but might slow me down if they were on (namely NR and auto iris) are both meaningless when gaming, as white text makes auto iris moot (off is actually better blacks) and NR isn't necessary at all.

I've got an old portable DVD player that has both S-video and Video out, I'll try those with the Reon tomorrow and see what kind of options are available, as I expect the options to be different from both PC and HDMI.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #85 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 08:43 AM
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I thought the Epson was by far the brigthest? Is that just in the bright mode?

Isn't it a bit unfair comparing black levels on projector with different brightness?

Is there any smearing or loosing of focus effect with motion and pans? I find the best way to play first person shooter games... easy to do different speed pans and see how it looks(looks like crap on my dithering DLP).

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post #86 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by peteer01
As for the Reon video options, there aren't very many available to turn on and off with a 1080p signal through HDMI.

Interesting! So it sounds like the addition of the Reon processor doesn't hinder its gaming performance substantially. Prior to you getting yours, it seemed like it was going to be a safe assumption that if you couldn't "turn it off" gaming performance would suffer. I guess not.

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post #87 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 09:52 AM
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I just ordered one (6500ub) from avscience (Jason T.)...I'm upgrading from an Epson Powerlight 400. I don't currently use the iris, and don't plan on using it on the 6500 (especially for gaming, which is most of what I do). I'm hoping for a HUGE difference in black level-for the better of course.
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post #88 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 12:52 PM
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Ktak,

"the background stars looked brighter on the Epson while the blackness of space was comparable or slightly deeper compared to the Sony, Sanyo, Mitsubishi or Panasonic."

But what about the JVC?

Noah
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post #89 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Mapstone View Post

Interesting! So it sounds like the addition of the Reon processor doesn't hinder its gaming performance substantially. Prior to you getting yours, it seemed like it was going to be a safe assumption that if you couldn't "turn it off" gaming performance would suffer. I guess not.

I suspect the Z3 being faster than the TW4000 has something to do with the Reon. While it's not ideal, it's not as much of problem as I was worried about either.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
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post #90 of 135 Old 12-04-2008, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser View Post

I thought the Epson was by far the brigthest? Is that just in the bright mode?

Isn't it a bit unfair comparing black levels on projector with different brightness?

Is there any smearing or loosing of focus effect with motion and pans? I find the best way to play first person shooter games... easy to do different speed pans and see how it looks(looks like crap on my dithering DLP).

First, while I don't turn auto iris on during games, I can't see any reason not to turn it on for everything else. It does have a big impact on how black the blacks get. (Try it out, your tastes may vary)

As for smearing, I have no complaints about pans, which are better than both my 40" LCD TV and Z3, and don't have a CRT in Japan. If I'd been gaming on a high quality CRT regularly, my feelings might be a bit different, but based on my recent displays, I'm quite happy with how it handles pans.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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