Official Sony VPL-VW80 Owners Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 368 Old 12-25-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Could be a shortage of 120hz processing chips in the states. Thanks for confirming that that projector does do both 100hz and 120hz.

I'm still not sure I have confirmed that but Motionflow does appear to work for 60p material, at least on the one disk I tested. Whether it's working in exactly the same way as it does for 50i/p or 24p material is perhaps still questionable and something that someone with access to NTSC and Blu-ray copies of the same title can probably better answer.
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post #182 of 368 Old 12-25-2008, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tripp View Post

I'm still not sure I have confirmed that but Motionflow does appear to work for 60p material,

That's what I'd like to know too. Just because DFI and MotionFlow is active, is it showing at 120hz or 100hz? Couldn't the projector also be doing some sort of FRC ( frame rate conversion ) to display at 100hz? Similar to how 24 frames is shown using 3:2 at 60hz even though 24 doesn't evenly go into 60. Because 100hz is greater than 60hz, you wouldn't readily notice as easily.

Other techniques such as double and triple buffering have been used for decades on computers to show NTSC as EXACTLY 60hz instead of 59.94.
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post #183 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 06:33 AM
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I'm hoping to have mine hooked up sometime this weekend.

About the Motionflow and Dark Frame Insertion--I will certainly be disappointed if they do not function properly because of the 100/120hz question. However, it seems to me that the worst case scenario is that I bought the functional equivalent of a VW70 for half price.

I'm okay with that.
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post #184 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Cigar Dan View Post

I'm hoping to have mine hooked up sometime this weekend.

About the Motionflow and Dark Frame Insertion--I will certainly be disappointed if they do not function properly because of the 100/120hz question. However, it seems to me that the worst case scenario is that I bought the functional equivalent of a VW70 for half price.

I'm okay with that.

Well actually a 70 can be had for about $5XXX. But yes we did save money .
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post #185 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 07:07 AM
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I was on a few other forums and everyone said that of the sony LCDs in Europe that are labeled 100hz, are actually 120hz panels that also work with 50hz signal and vice versa. So a 120hz tv would also work fine with a pal signal. If motionflow is working on a 60p signal, then It must be converting it to 120hz. 60 goes into 120 exactly twice. If it had to take a 60fps signal and drop frames to get it to 100hz, it would look MUCH worse. Also, on the European forums many members had US Xbox and PS3 outputting into a 100hz TV and they claimed that motionflow worked find with all 60p games. I doubt the Projector would be any different.

Somebody should maybe call Sony or email them to get a straight answer.
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post #186 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 08:04 AM
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Finally got time to play with my VW80...... and it is winner. I have to say that the color is almost perfect straight out of the box, and the native contrast can be better (if compare with JVCs). The project is pretty bright even in low lamp mode when projecting a 102" 16:9 1.0 gain screen (in a light control room). I have also found the motion projection mode on low & film projection @ 3 to be a very "fast" but natural on an action film like "Matrix Reload" but it does make it look like a video game when set motion projection mode on high. I think it is only appropriate from sports & gaming. film projection @ 1 will hurt the brightness..... But after 2 hours of playing around with it, I have to say it's a winner and i will pick this up instead of the HD350 without considering the price.
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post #187 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Any static CR numbers?

I did some measurements. I had the projector at a little over 1.5x the screen width back from my 10' wide High Power and put the projector on low bulb. Other things were at or close to the defaults (like 50 for Brightness and 90 for Contrast). With the iris at the minimum I got about 9k:1 on/off CR. I later zoomed to the smallest image possible and got in the range of about 11k:1 to 12k:1 on/off CR, trying to get it for the center of the image.

Another thing I observed is that manual iris at max has the iris slightly closed compared to iris off or with a white screen on one of the auto settings. The difference was 81.5 nits (cd/m2) with iris off and 78 nits with manual iris at max. With iris at min I got about 31.7, so a reduction of about 2.6x from open to closed. The black level for manual iris min and auto 1 were about the same. The black level for manual iris min vs iris off (open) had a ratio of about 3.9x.

I don't know the exact gain to my seating position, but estimated it at around 2.4 in the past. So for lumens I figure about 560 with iris off from 81.5 nits, .292 nits per ft-lamberts, 56 square feet, and 2.4 gain. And about 220 lumens with the manual iris at min.

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post #188 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

...With the iris at the minimum I got about 9k:1 on/off CR. I later zoomed to the smallest image possible and got in the rangeof about 11k:1 to 12k:1 on/off CR...

Wow, just from a pure on/off CR perspective the VW80 seems to be a steal given the small price difference over the HW10.

Sound and Vision measured the VW70 d65 calibrated ~11K:1 iris off . I am not sure what their 3,904:1 checkerboard measurement was, maybe a 2x2 instead of the ANSI 4x4??

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...nch-page3.html

The VW70/80 seems to be a significant increase in static CR over the VW40/VW60/HW10 and VW200!

Thanks for the measurements!
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post #189 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Sound and Vision measured the VW70 d65 calibrated ~11K:1 iris off .

Which sounds about right but it would be nice if they included where in the zoom range it was measured. Their iris on number is way short of what it should be though.
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post #190 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tripp View Post

...Their iris on number is way short of what it should be though.

I agree 23,490:1 seems too large for iris on and too small for iris auto
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post #191 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 08:56 PM
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I did some side-by-side of the VW80 with the 11S2. I had the 11S2 in its highest contrast mode and the VW80 in manual iris mode with the iris closed as far as possible, with both lamps on low (I didn't want to use high with both running and increase the risk of an overheat condition). In this case I needed to lower the contrast setting on the VW80 to reduce the white level about 25% in order to equalize them. I played with the green and blue gains on the 11S2 to get the white levels looking about the same color to my eyes. I also went through and looked for gamma settings in the VW80 to get windows from 10% to 100% matched up fairly well. Then I put up 100% windows for the colors and tried to match the colors close enough by eye. I ended up in Wide mode on the VW80 with the color control at 45 (default shows 50, but it was 55 when I got it).

I haven't tested everything I was going to in the side-by-side, but looked at the blackout images. The VW80 was just slightly darker there. Not much, but a little. Of course, I had reduced the on/off CR on it in order to match the white levels, so should have been a little more difference in the VW80's favor if they had been equalized in a way that didn't hurt its on/off CR (not even including that I had disabled the dynamic iris for this comparison). I looked at some dark stuff at the beginning of National Treasure and there was some stuff there where the blacks looked darker on the 11S2 side. I also looked at Hellboy and there was a lot of similarity between the images this way, but the 11S2 side was a little sharper and I think it had a little more depth overall in the bright images.

I then went to the pan I mentioned earlier from Inside Man (about an hour in). I started out with the frame creation stuff in the VW80 off. This pan is from left to right and the 11S2 was on the right, so objects started there and then moved to the VW80 side. While I think the VW80 has some motion blur, it looks to me like that or something else reduces how obvious judder is. When watching this scene on the VW80 by itself I had seen judder, but with the 11S2 on the right it seemed like the judder for objects was reduced when they hit the VW80 side. They still had kind of double images at the left and right edge, but the jumpiness of the objects in the image just didn't seem quite as obvious. I then tried the VW80 on low for frame creation. When I had tried this on the VW80 by itself I didn't think the effect was huge, but it sure stood out when doing the side-by-side with the 11S2. Objects would judder on the 11S2 and then mostly smooth out on the VW80 side. Not as much as high mode, but it was pretty obvious here. Things that couldn't be read or hardly read were easier to read on the VW80 side, like a No Smoking sign.

I tried the frame creation stuff on a 1080i football game in this side-by-side and I really couldn't tell much difference. Maybe other people see a lot of difference, but I didn't. I did only try for a minute or so before moving onto some other testing though.

I realize it is kind of sacrilegious and some people hate these frame creation features, but I'm not a film purist and personally like some of this frame creation stuff when done right. I need to try the low mode with a whole movie, but I think it might be the determining factor in which I keep between the RS20 and the VW80. I'm planning on keeping my Panasonic AE3000 for my bedroom and I don't think it would be reasonable to use its frame creation feature and then not have something at least similar for the projector in my theater room, since the difference would probably bug me. So, if the low frame creation mode in the VW80 works well with more testing (doesn't have bad artifacts at times that make it not worth it to use) then I think I'll probably keep the VW80 for my theater room and sell the RS20.

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post #192 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 09:12 PM
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Darinp.

Maybe Im a little slow, but you mentioned that you were going to either keep the RS20 or the VW80 right?

So why would you not compare the two projectors that your are, well comparing? How come you didn't do a side by side with the RS20 and VW80? Do you not have the RS20 yet?

Also, you seem to like the Marantz alot (which I have heard is one of the best single chip DLPs on the market), why don't you just keep it? Is there something about the Marantz that is lacking?

If you can could you please do a side by side with the Sony vs. the RS20. These seem to be two of the best LCOS machines on the market and it would be interesting to see which one comes out on top.

Also, if you want to experiment with Frame Interpolation. Maybe you could get the Epson 6500 for a test drive. Then you could have a nice shootout between the Epson, Sony, Marantz, and JVC.
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post #193 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 10:30 PM
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Hell why don't you throw in a Sim2 Domino 80E and then you can tell me which one to buy
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post #194 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

So why would you not compare the two projectors that your are, well comparing? How come you didn't do a side by side with the RS20 and VW80? Do you not have the RS20 yet?

I will here at some point. I was interested in seeing the VW80 against the Marantz as the on/off CR should have been reasonably close if the dynamic iris wasn't enabled on the VW80 and I wanted to see how close the VW80 sharpness was to the 11S2's with some different material. Plus, the Marantz was already setup behind a wall shooting through a hole and the VW80 was on the stand where the RS20 had been, since that is where I put the VW80 to try it out. I'll probably do the VW80 vs RS20 when a friend comes over in the next few days as I know he wants to see that. I'll have to decide which one goes at the long throw position behind the wall or figure out how to setup 2 in the room. But I'm going to watch some stuff on the VW80 first.
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Also, you seem to like the Marantz alot (which I have heard is one of the best single chip DLPs on the market), why don't you just keep it?

It is a temporary trade/loaner for one and I'm not convinced it is the one of the 3 models I would want anyway. If I was just watching football I would probably go with it, but I don't want to have 2 projectors for the theater depreciating for long and so don't plan to keep one for darker movies and a different one for football, Discovery Channel, etc.
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Is there something about the Marantz that is lacking?

Mostly on/off CR besides this frame interpolation mode of the VW80. While I was comparing with the dynamic iris off for the VW80 for the comparison I would likely use it with that enabled. But a dynamic iris also works partly on the principle that specific levels are hard to pinpoint without a reference and a side-by-side provides a reference (so can make something that would look white all by itself all of a sudden appear gray and I think it could make pumping appear where it wouldn't be noticeable normally).

I went back to try the low frame interpolation mode in the VW80 and the first thing I popped in had an artifact right away. It was the Blu-ray version of The Dark Knight and the first shot (an IMAX one) has a building on the left that the VW80 puts some bad artifacts on in low frame interpolation mode and even worse in high. And they were really obvious. Like over a good percentage of the face of the building.

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post #195 of 368 Old 12-26-2008, 11:52 PM
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I find motionflow has its good and bad. It normally breaks vertical lines in panning. One example is Transformers when son walks to his father's car after getting an A-. The grill of car breaks up badly. That is the same with my Sony XBR LCD TV.

On the other hand it works great with Casino Royale when the game start and camera pan in a circle across the table. VW80 motionflow in high is rock solid. Something my LCD TV can't match.

DFI is not 100% positive for me. Sometimes there are double images in panning. Turn that off actually gives me more natural motion.
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post #196 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 05:33 AM
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I will have to check out that opening scene in The Dark Knight because we watched it on the 200 last night and I did not see artifiact on any of the buildings in the opening scene. I remembering everyone's jaw dropping at how awesome the picture was... I realize the 80 should be somewhat different but would expect them to be more the same. Especially with colors...

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post #197 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 07:38 AM
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Seems that the motion flow sequence introduces some issues with scenes with a lot of high detail. Darin, if you have the chance try it out with the cadence tests on the S&M test disc. The clip from Super Speedway of the bleachers has a lot of detail (which is why it was picked) and it would be interesting to see the result with and without the motion flow on. I would bet the high detail information is too difficult to retain and you will see obvious moire. This would also be the case with TDK, some other boards have reported seeing obvious moire in the opening building sequence but when they turn off motion flow on their flat panels the artifact goes away. Many were chiming in saying that is an encoding issue on the disc but if you are displaying it with no scaling and pure 1:1 mapping, there are no artifacts at all.

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post #198 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I will have to check out that opening scene in The Dark Knight because we watched it on the 200 last night and I did not see artifiact on any of the buildings in the opening scene...

I would love to hear your impressions of that scene that Darin described as problematic on the VW80. I am still trying to understand the difference between Motionflow on the WV80 vs on the VW200.
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post #199 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 04:56 PM
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I heard there are fix for bright corners. Can anyone show me how?
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post #200 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 07:31 PM
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I never use Motion Flow for movies because it just doesn't look natural. I just got in so I will check out the opening scene in The Dark Knight shortly...

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post #201 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I just got in so I will check out the opening scene in The Dark Knight shortly...

I looked at it again tonight and the artifact on the leftmost building wasn't there, but there was a building on the right that showed problems with the motion flow stuff on. It is a swimming kind of artifact over much of the face of the build.

A friend and I did a side-by-side of the RS20 and VW80 with both showing the left half of the images. We tried to basically equalize the white levels and gammas, but one interesting thing is that the ANSI checkerboard looked like it had darker blacks on the RS20 side even though my measurements before had the VW80 with the better ANSI CR. But the RS20 was in a different lens shift position than before, the VW80 iris may have been in a different position than before, and the whites were somewhat different shades as setup here (more reddish on the VW80 side). I didn't take the time to measure which actually had the darker blacks in that test pattern and so this was just by eye.

Overall my friend felt the RS20 was a little sharper (although the gap was much smaller than the amount the 11S2 had been sharper than the VW80) and liked the better native on/off CR of the RS20. The opening star field of Dark City did look quite a bit more dynamic on the RS20 side whether the dynamic iris was enabled in Auto 1 mode in the VW80 or not. He decided he is going to get the RS20 when his theater is ready (unless something else comes along to change his mind).

I still need to do some more testing sitting in the center seat (the place for which we had tried to largely equalize white levels and gammas).

--Darin

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post #202 of 368 Old 12-27-2008, 11:05 PM
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Darin, when you've been testing the motion flow stuff, have you been using the dark frame insertion? I'd be interested in seeing if you can make the motion blur of the projector less with dark frame and no motion flow, verses all those things off. I've found that frame interpolation (motion flow) will always trip up on something, but hope that dark frame insertion could be the answer.

How much of a difference did you find the contrast to be between the RS20 and VW80? How about with high APL scenes?
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post #203 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 06:04 AM
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I had Film Projection in Mode 3 and Motion Flow Off. I had a perfect picture without noise or artifact on the buildings. We also watch Traitor where there were a lot of city (like Chicago) pans with buildings and it looked perfect. I kept scanning for artifacts but was happy to find none. I even asked our 3 guests to look for anything out of the ordinary and they came up empty. I am using the 200 but I am wondering if the 80 was set the same way if it would perform the same way...

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post #204 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 09:25 AM
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can anyone give a US user any good idea where to get a vpl-vw80 from... I have read, but can't seem to find..

Thanks ;-)
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post #205 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatjulio View Post

Darin, when you've been testing the motion flow stuff, have you been using the dark frame insertion?

I've tried the dark frame insertion feature multiple times and my eyes didn't see anything positive from it. Basically just added flicker to the images for me. I may try it again in a side-by-side to make sure, but so far I consider that feature worthless for me.
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How much of a difference did you find the contrast to be between the RS20 and VW80? How about with high APL scenes?

With high APL scenes not much, but with dark stuff like Dark City there is quite a bit of difference in the RS20's favor which really stands out in a side-by-side. When watching just one the difference isn't likely to be as noticeable, but it is still there.
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I had Film Projection in Mode 3 and Motion Flow Off. I had a perfect picture without noise or artifact on the buildings.We also watch Traitor where there were a lot of city (like Chicago) pans with buildings and it looked perfect. I kept scanning for artifacts but was happy to find none. I even asked our 3 guests to look for anything out of the ordinary and they came up empty. I am using the 200 but I am wondering if the 80 was set the same way if it would perform the same way...

I wouldn't expect you to have any artifacts from motion flow since you had it off. I don't personally see the Film Projection modes adding anything I consider positive, but I also didn't notice any artifacts from them unless one considers the images flickering to be an artifact.

--Darin

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post #206 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 10:19 AM
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Can someone help me to find where to buy one of these from AU for delivery to US?
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post #207 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 10:34 AM
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From the VW200, I believe the mode 1 dark frame insertion is intended to be used without motion flow to give the most CRT "cinema like" effect. I had a CRT for many years, and to my eye, it works very well and I appreciate the refinement of the image and the movie like character, although I could see that other eyes used to popping, bright digital renditions might not like it. Mode 1 seems to be most sensitive to artifacting with motion flow. The mode 2 is brighter and pretty much allows the low motion flow to be used without significant artifacts on the many cable hi def movies that I have seen so far like Spiderman 3. I think the mode 3 frame insertion, the lightest, is the brightest and least aggressive and seems to work well with the high motion flow. Also, high motion flows seems to improve some the the square, standard def sources that come from conventional broadcast channels.
I really like these modes, and think they were good things to add, but require a bit of experimentation to find the right combos. Viewers that just want a digital popping image across the board can probably live without them.
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post #208 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cjfrbw View Post

From the VW200, I believe the mode 1 dark frame insertion is intended to be used without motion flow to give the most CRT "cinema like" effect. I had a CRT for many years, and to my eye, it works very well and I appreciate the refinement of the image and the movie like character, although I could see that other eyes used to popping, bright digital renditions might not like it.

Did you like it partially because it made the images darker? If so, that could be done with the iris in the lens without hurting the on/off CR. But then a lower on/off CR could be more like people see in cinemas.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #209 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Did you like it partially because it made the images darker? If so, that could be done with the iris in the lens without hurting the on/off CR. But then a lower on/off CR could be more like people see in cinemas.

--Darin

Just try watching it for awhile and let yourself sink into it a bit on a good movie. In our instant gratification, push button world, everything is sampled and discarded so fast nobody appreciates anything. In vision, everything is relative, and once you adapt to the relativity of the image in this mode, you might (or might not) find things about it that you can appreciate. It is more subdued, but then, good cinema tends to be somewhat subdued and sensual. CRT's don't have sharp edges, for instance, everything is kind of curtain of transitions with absolute blacks, and it is a very nice effect.
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post #210 of 368 Old 12-28-2008, 02:44 PM
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I looked at it again tonight and the artifact on the leftmost building wasn't there, but there was a building on the right that showed problems with the motion flow stuff on. It is a swimming kind of artifact over much of the face of the build.

Used an A-B repeat loop to watch the first 5 seconds or so of this scene a lot of times. With Motion Enhance in High we saw artifacts on the left hand building and not always in the same place perhaps every second or third time but nothing like described with any of the other buildings.

With Motion Enhance in Low, no matter how many times we watched it, couldn't find a problem with any part of the scene. Then went looking for other parts of the film that were likely to cause problems as there are lots of panning cityscape shots and the High setting regularly caused problems but nothing at all with the Low setting.

1080p24 input, Film Projection was in Mode 3, Iris Auto 2/Fast, MPEG NR Mosquito and Block both set to Low.
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