Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:12 PM
 
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Rick,

What do you mean "the source set properly"? Did you adjust the contrast and brightness on the Panny or what did you adjust on the Panny?

Thanks,
scott
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:46 PM
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[quote=RickS;15391476]Hi,
Anyway, as the instructional session continued I learned how important it was to get the source set properly...in this case the Panasonic BD30 player. If the projector does not have the brightness and contrast detail to work with it will never be able to display it and was made very obvious in the patterns that were being displayed on the screen.
QUOTE]

Hi Rick,

Thanks a lot for your feedback. Could pleaseelaborate a bit on the settings on the BD-30? I have a BD-50 myself and would be interested to know which preset/settings were adjusted in the player itself. Please share your settings if you can, it may provide an answer (or part of the answer) to the problem indeed. I have chosen the "normal" color preset, and the "standard" (not enhenced) output for HDMI. It would be interesting to try with different settings.
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You could do it easily enough. You would just have to save each RGBCYMW run with a unique .chc name and then post 4 CIE charts or 4 sets of raw data.

That was my plan, but I thought your DVD went in sequence through each color (with different saturation levels), not each saturation level (with each color in sequence). Did I miss something? If this is the order of the tracks in your DVD (each color in this order ending with white for each saturation level), I am mistaken and will give it a go (edit: I couldn't get a menu with diret access to each chapter when I burnt the DVD, is it normal?)
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:02 PM
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Hi, Guys!

Micheal has worked with a lot on Panny players and while setting grayscale patterns the projector no matter what was adjusted would not bring in some of bars on the screen until the contrast and brightness was properly set. Also, since I'm a big fan of HD sat Hockey Michael hooked up a signal generator to my Denon Sat input and adjusted from there. The setting for that were quite different than the pass thru 1080P24 of the Bluray player.

The setting for the BD player HDMI was set to normal not enhanced in the player. The contrast and brightness have to be adjusted with the video playing.

Rick
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:04 PM
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For those of you that have measured on/off, can you report your findings? Please be sure to include whether you are at min/mid/max throw and what lamp and iris setting you are using. I measured about 46750:1 from mid throw with high lamp and iris -15. Lumens was a bit more than 300. Was very impressed by these readings. Curious if this about what others are getting or if I just happened to have a unit that was strong in this department (due to unit to unit variability).
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I measured about 46750:1 from mid throw with high lamp and iris -15. Lumens was a bit more than 300.

How far was the sensor from the lens? Did you use a light meter or a colorimeter? What image size gave the 300 lumens?

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Do you have any idea of how the RS20 compares to other projectors around this price point with a CMS?

The ones I am familiar with are the Samsung and Sharp DLPs, Sony SXRDs, and the Epson LCD. All work considerably better. In fact, the Samsung Movie preset is quite accurate, even without bothering with the CMS adjustments. The Sony SXRD doesn't have a CMS exactly, but it has a preset that is at least as accurate as the RS20's THX mode and it offers an adjustable grayscale. The Sharp and the Epson both lack an accurate preset, but the CMS in both works flawlessly.

Having said that, I also know of some CMSs that are considerably worse. The Pioneer Elite plasmas come to mind (hue adjustments only and any adjustment effects the grayscale). Some Toshiba LCDs w/ColorMaster CMS also suck, making the image worse rather than better.

The problem with a CMS implementation is that the only people who are likely to care about such a feature are probably anal about this sort of thing so you had better get the engineering right. As I think I said earlier, I think JVC would have been better off forgetting the CMS on the RS20 and just making the THX preset grayscale adjustable.

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Old 12-27-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The Sharp and the Epson both lack an accurate preset, but the CMS in both works flawlessly.

Which Epson are you talking about? I just tried to set up the TW5000 with the built in color controls, but I had much more trouble getting good results than with the HD750. Finally I was able to tame the oversaturated gamut which improved the color accuracy quite a lot, however I still find the HD750 far superior in color accuracy.

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Old 12-27-2008, 04:20 PM
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Greetings

For the Panasonic BD players ... the user setting should have brightness at +1 at least and contrast at -2 or -3. Not the detente positions.

regards

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Old 12-27-2008, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

One last thing to get back on a more technical level, I was a bit unhappy with the slight wash-out that I could sense in brighter scenes compared to the extraordinary 3d picture I would get in low apl scenes, which I attributed to the relatively limited ANSI contrast of the 750 in higher APL scenes. I felt that opening the iris improved ANSI contrast a little. Pushed by some AV Forum friends, I took some measurements which I published here http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-l...ml#post8426768.

Yes I measured the same thing. Iris open improves ANSI by over 20% but reduces on/off significantly. Overall, I much prefer the iris aperture reduced setting (-15) but for sports where the APL is higher and blacks aren't as much of an issue, iris open has more pop.

Btw, I measured ~240:1 ANSI at close to long throw (iris open). With the RS1 I was getting better ANSI (308:1) at short throw so 240:1 is probably not the best that the RS20 can do. I'll post the results of each setting later.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:47 PM
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Would be so nice to see JVC market an auto calibration kit for the RS20/HD750 based on the one they use at the factory, for calibration skill challenged individuals such as me!

Anyone like to get the ball rollin'?

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
Hiran J Wijeyesekera - 1985.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

For those of you that have measured on/off, can you report your findings? Please be sure to include whether you are at min/mid/max throw and what lamp and iris setting you are using.

And also please include:

- Model of light meter
- Actual numerical value of the black level including all digits, so we can judge the resolution of the measurements (number of significant digits).
- Black reading with projector turned completely off, so we can judge the level of ambient light.
- Whether readings taken from screen (reflected) or off projector (direct)

Brent
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Old 12-27-2008, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Try redoing the Color control and CMS work, but this time use 75% patterns. I think you will find it tracks better. Then if you need to you can try worsening 75% a bit if it improves 100%. Maybe a slight error at 75% gives you something more acceptable at 100%, and so forth. Its all a balancing act.

Also if you had to pick between things falling apart at 100% vs. 75%, I would think it would be better to have things correct at 75% than 100%. Why? Well I'm just thinking that besides white, its pretty rare (I think) to have 100% levels for RGBCMY on screen. I'm not saying never, but rare. I'd think it would be much more common to have 75% and lower. Therefore if there is a tradeoff it would probably be best to let the err be at 100%. This is just a theory I'm throwing out there.

Given that the APL of movies is pretty low (30% to 50%), wouldn't it make sense to ensure the best calibration is at an average level, say, at 40%, which would ensure that brighter movies will be above this level, and darker will be below, but the error deviation won't be too much?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...712&highlight=
You could also calibrate the user settings for optimal dark movies, and other setting for optimal bright movies.


Also, regarding the comments about ensuring that every link in the playback chain needs to calibrated for optimal results, can someone comment on how you can calibrate the source (BD player or HTPC)? Surely you would need a known calibratated projector in the first place to determine if the source is out of calibration?

Be kind if I have misinterpreted, as I am a calibration newbie.
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Old 12-27-2008, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by karrih View Post

Are you saying that professionals are able to get everything right? Any way, JVC does provide a manual so it would seem more than proper that also advanced topic would be covered. I guess a couple pages on a website somewhere could do the trick. This of course would require some interest in aftermarketing from JVC.

No, I am saying that JVC's policy is the "dealer" should support the consumer and JVC will never get involved with the consumer.

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Old 12-27-2008, 07:50 PM
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Interesting point on setting the source output correctly. I will be receiving my projector on Monday (was supposed to be on last Wednesday but "adverse weather conditions" as explained by UPS and the Christmas break kept that from happening). I will be outputting from an Anthem AVM-50, which admittedly has limited picture control compared to a full fledged outboard processor...any thoughts on how to best utilize it.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

How far was the sensor from the lens? Did you use a light meter or a colorimeter? What image size gave the 300 lumens?

I have a 106" diag Firehawk, but note that lumens are screen size independent which is what makes it such a useful measure.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by clehner View Post

Which Epson are you talking about? I just tried to set up the TW5000 with the built in color controls, but I had much more trouble getting good results than with the HD750. Finally I was able to tame the oversaturated gamut which improved the color accuracy quite a lot, however I still find the HD750 far superior in color accuracy.

It was the PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB. "Far superior" in what way? The post-calibration results of the Epson I worked on was close enough to bang on that nothing would constitute "far superior."

Like the RS20, reducing saturation also reduced color brightness, but restoring that with the Brightness control in the CMS was fairly straightforward and I didn't have to fuss with the the Color control at all. If I recall green and cyan remained slightly oversaturated, but only by a small amount. I am away from home base during the holidays, but I'll be happy to provide numbers upon my return.

The only problem with this unit I saw, beyond the generic problems one tends to encounter with LCDs in general, was relatively low light output in a color accurate mode.

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Old 12-27-2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The ones I am familiar with are the Samsung and Sharp DLPs, Sony SXRDs, and the Epson LCD. All work considerably better. In fact, the Samsung Movie preset is quite accurate, even without bothering with the CMS adjustments. The Sony SXRD doesn't have a CMS exactly, but it has a preset that is at least as accurate as the RS20's THX mode and it offers an adjustable grayscale. The Sharp and the Epson both lack an accurate preset, but the CMS in both works flawlessly.

Having said that, I also know of some CMSs that are considerably worse. The Pioneer Elite plasmas come to mind (hue adjustments only and any adjustment effects the grayscale). Some Toshiba LCDs w/ColorMaster CMS also suck, making the image worse rather than better.

The problem with a CMS implementation is that the only people who are likely to care about such a feature are probably anal about this sort of thing so you had better get the engineering right. As I think I said earlier, I think JVC would have been better off forgetting the CMS on the RS20 and just making the THX preset grayscale adjustable.

I want to respond to my own post to clarify something and make a correction. First, I am NOT offering an all-things-considered comparison between these various displays. I am not qualified. I haven't even seen the RS20 yet, though I am fairly familiar with the RS1/2, and I thought that the Radiance-RS1/2 combo was about the best image I have seen. I was only referring to the functionality of the CMS. For example, the Pioneer Elite plasma provides fabulous images--arguably the best available--but its CMS is a disaster.

Second, upon reflection it was inaccurate to write that the Epson CMS was "flawless." That is too strong. It suffers from one of the same flaws as the RS20 CMS. The saturation control also lowers color brightness.

Tom Huffman
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwishred View Post

And also please include:

- Model of light meter
- Actual numerical value of the black level including all digits, so we can judge the resolution of the measurements (number of significant digits).
- Black reading with projector turned completely off, so we can judge the level of ambient light.
- Whether readings taken from screen (reflected) or off projector (direct)

Brent

I took the measurement using the Spyder 2 about 18" from the lens pointing directly into the lens. The actual reading this way was 45436:1. I also did it with the meter trained to the EyeOne which produced the slightly higher reading, but I don't have the detailed data on that so let's go with 45436:1 for now.

Y at 100% measured 15533.339, Y at 0% measured 0.341875.

I also measured it using the CA813 light meter from the same distance and using the same approach. This yielded a reading of about 54,000:1. I've used this same equipment and approach in the past to measure other pjs and had reliable results (i.e. 14,000:1 on my RS1 etc), so I'm fairly confident on this. However the difference between 45000:1 and 54000:1 is quite significant so maybe the actual number is somewhere in between. Either way this is some serious on/off cr!

I did not measure with the pj off but am almost certain both meters would have registered 0.
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:52 PM
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lovingdvd - thanks for the details. They give your numbers more credibility. I don't for one minute believe all 6 digits from the Eye1 black level reading. However, your measured on-off CR for the RS20 appears consistent with the widely reported observations (the 20% variation between Eye1 and CA813 not withstanding).

I would want to play around with the black level readings of both meters to see which one I trusted more. Some experiments like placing an ND2 filter in front of the lens and seeing if the measured black level halved (or the on-off CR remained constant) would be a good start.....

Brent
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I have a 106" diag Firehawk, but note that lumens are screen size independent which is what makes it such a useful measure.

I was under the impression screen size is relevant to lumens. For example, lux multiplied by screen area in square meters. All my light meters display measurements in lux or foot candelas. What have you got that gives out lumens directly?

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Old 12-28-2008, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It was the PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB.

That must be the one the is identical with the TW5000 (as it is called in Europe)? Very confusing ... no it is not, can somebody please help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

"Far superior" in what way?

Well to be fair, I did not spend as much time with the Epson as I did with the HD750, however I have the feeling that the Epson has the same problems of getting easy on spot like the HD750, and I am not very close yet. I may have not found the trick yet. I was a little surprised that you named the Epson for having a much 'better' (hard to choose a word here) CMS than the JVC. The only thing that was easy was to check the THX mode of the JVC as being almost on spot. As you mentioned the Epson does not even have a preset.

Anyway, I will give it another try tonight. Thanks for the heads up.

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Old 12-28-2008, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clehner View Post

As you mentioned the Epson does not even have a preset.

The TW5000/7500UB has a X.V.Color mode which behaves much like RS20's THX mode in that the user is locked out from some of the settings. Haven't had time to measure it yet, but it looks pretty good by eyeball.

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

The TW5000/7500UB has a X.V.Color mode which behaves much like RS20's THX mode in that the user is locked out from some of the settings. Haven't had time to measure it yet, but it looks pretty good by eyeball.

I *think* I tried that one, but it has WAY oversaturated colors as well, so no luck there. I may be wrong, but I will check again tonight.

BTW: I managed to tame the enlarged gamut of the TW5000 and the result looked good enough to my eyes, however the HD750 measured a lot better, at least so far.

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by clehner View Post

I *think* I tried that one, but it has WAY oversaturated colors as well, so no luck there. I may be wrong, but I will check again tonight.

HD750 in THX mode has clearly more saturated colors than the Epson in X.V.Color mode.

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

HD750 in THX mode has clearly more saturated colors than the Epson in X.V.Color mode.

I am not sure what you are talking about now. The THX mode of the 750 has been clearly confirmed of being more or less spot on REC709 with the gamut. It has problems concerning the greyscale (esp. in low lamp mode) but the gamut is fairly well to the norm!

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by clehner View Post

I am not sure what you are talking about now.

I'm talking about this:



That's a HD750 in THX mode on the left and TW5000 in X.V.Color mode on the right. Look at the pink note and the blue box in the newspaper clipping on the wall. Left side of the HD750 image is dark because of lens shift.

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

For the Panasonic BD players ... the user setting should have brightness at +1 at least and contrast at -2 or -3. Not the detente positions.

regards

Thanks very much for this Michael, I'll definitely try playing with these for my next attempt (only 25 hours to go until I reach 100, and enjoying every single one of them!).
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Old 12-28-2008, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

That's a HD750 in THX mode on the left and TW5000 in X.V.Color mode on the right. Look at the pink note and the blue box in the newspaper clipping on the wall.

Okay, first, I think we already agreed that comparing screen shots proofs nothing. You are talking about a subjective difference here. And you are talking about overall color intensity (most of the time labeled as 'saturation' in the controls), but I am talking about the size of the color gamut.

Did you measure the colors and the gamut of the projectors?

In any case, only by measuring the gamut you will know which projector has correct colors and which one does not. You cannot tell by the eye which one is closer to the truth (as the director may have wanted the colors different to what you think they should look like).

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Old 12-28-2008, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Yes I measured the same thing. Iris open improves ANSI by over 20% but reduces on/off significantly. Overall, I much prefer the iris aperture reduced setting (-15) but for sports where the APL is higher and blacks aren't as much of an issue, iris open has more pop.

Btw, I measured ~240:1 ANSI at close to long throw (iris open). With the RS1 I was getting better ANSI (308:1) at short throw so 240:1 is probably not the best that the RS20 can do. I'll post the results of each setting later.


Thanks Mark for confirming the theory. I'm going to buy a light meter as I'm sure my numbers are wrong (although the variation of Ansi contrast measured when changing the iris position seems accurate). As suspected the i1 is not great for measuring contrast. I'll report once I feel I can trust the numbers a bit more.
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