Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

...I must be lucky or blind, because with my calibrated settings (4th attempt) I can't see any obvious color abnormality like the one you have noticed on Wall-E...

Just to be clear, that color error I mentioned was the result of my custom CMS no tracking as it needed across various % levels. There was no obvious error with the THX mode in this scene.
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post #542 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:16 AM
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For those that have measured the THX mode and have used their custom grayscale in this mode, when you measure the THX gamut are the hues of the secondaries coming in as expected? Is the overall Tint control any help in tweaking these or just fixes one at the expense of others?
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post #543 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I just don't have the video-savvy to parse all this. Is the bottom line: The CMS doesn't really work? Or that in order to get the colors reasonably accurate it involves unwanted trade-offs elsewhere?

The thing that tells me that the CMS doesn't work is that it is impossible to get to something that remotely looks/measures like the THX mode.
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post #544 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I just don't have the video-savvy to parse all this. Is the bottom line: The CMS doesn't really work? Or that in order to get the colors reasonably accurate it involves unwanted trade-offs elsewhere?

The CMS definitely works, but there are trade-offs like almost every other CMS system. Form what I am getting you can get excellent color with the CMS. My Display is gorgeous and comes very close to what I see in the theater. You cannot exactly hit Rec. 709, but almost nothing does when it comes to a real world image.

People here are way too caught up in their instruments and are not looking enough at images along with using their tools.

I will say all of the CMS settings I have seen posted are way off the mark of a good image.
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post #545 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by umr View Post

The CMS definitely works,

Are you sure? check the 75% stimulus patterns before to be sure..
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post #546 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I will say all of the CMS settings I have seen posted are way off the mark of a good image.

You do realize that there's plenty of variance between units and settings that are fine in one unit might not produce similar results in another unit?

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #547 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

The thing that tells me that the CMS doesn't work is that it is impossible to get to something that remotely looks/measures like the THX mode.

The thing that tells me that the CMS works (for me) is that I didn't like the picture OOTB (too oversaturated, especially skin tones) or the THX preset (too green, greyscale completely off, lack of detail in dark scenes), and I like the picture as adjusted with the CMS/color temp/gamma. I have hopes to get it marginally better at some stage (very curious to try the combination of THX preset with corrected greyscale), but the main reason why I've stopped tweaking and resumed watching is because I'm happy with the picture.
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post #548 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The CMS definitely works, but there are trade-offs like almost every other CMS system. Form what I am getting you can get excellent color with the CMS. My Display is gorgeous and comes very close to what I see in the theater. You cannot exactly hit Rec. 709, but almost nothing does when it comes to a real world image.

People here are way too caught up in their instruments and are not looking enough at images along with using their tools.

I will say all of the CMS settings I have seen posted are way off the mark of a good image.


The problem is the tracking among the different stimulus levels. You can get them to where you like them (where ever that may be) at 100% but you can be assured that things will not look the same way (or even close) at 75%.

I can't see how this is not a defect.

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post #549 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 11:01 AM
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Manni, have you measured your calibrated picture at different stimulus levels?

Oh yeah, remember a while back when I posted some graphs measured from my HD750's THX mode and we were wondering how they differed from yours? I forgot to mention then that I used 75% colors. I believe you used 100% colors, right?

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #550 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Manni, have you measured your calibrated picture at different stimulus levels?

Oh yeah, remember a while back when I posted some graphs measured from my HD750's THX mode and we were wondering how they differed from yours? I forgot to mention then that I used 75% colors. I believe you used 100% colors, right?

Short answer is No and yes.

I didn't have a chance to measure the calibrated picture at different stimulus level (only at different saturation levels), but I don't see any reason why it would measure better than those who did.

The point I was making is I'm sure there are things which are wrong with my calibrated picture, but as long as I can't see them I have less motivation to spend hours in the dark watching patterns instead of watching movies...

I am convinced though that if we manage to improve what I can't see the whole picture would benefit from it, but until I reach 100 hours I've decided I wouldn't use the i1.

And yes, I did use the 100% saturation windows to calibrate. In my next attempt (after about 10 movies) I will experiment with this (75% saturation against 100% patterns to calibrate), playing with the color control, trying the THX preset with an adjusted greyscale, and will chose what my eyes prefer...
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post #551 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 12:17 PM
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I have already provided data on how the Radiance CMS tracks at different levels of stimulus here: good, but not perfect, especially with the secondaries.

I thought that I would take a look at the CMS in the Sharp 20K to get some sense of how other built-in CMS solutions perform.

First, I disengaged the CMS and measured at 75% and 100% stimulus to obtain a benchmark.



As you can see, it is almost perfectly linear, which is what you would expect.

Next, I calibrated using the CMS to a Rec. 709 gamut and remeasured at 75% and 100% stimulus.



As you can see, except that the color points now match the target gamut, there is no change at different levels of stimulus. So, at least this integrated CMS does not have this problem.

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post #552 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 12:24 PM
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Sharp 20K is still the King
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post #553 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acta7 View Post

Sharp 20K is still the King

That's going a little far. At least it CMS implementation seems hard to beat. There are many other factors to consider.

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post #554 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 12:44 PM
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Here are my THX (custom1 color temp 6500k) readings fore 100 and 75% color windows.

100%



75%

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post #555 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The CMS definitely works, but there are trade-offs like almost every other CMS system. Form what I am getting you can get excellent color with the CMS. My Display is gorgeous and comes very close to what I see in the theater. You cannot exactly hit Rec. 709, but almost nothing does when it comes to a real world image.

People here are way too caught up in their instruments and are not looking enough at images along with using their tools.

I will say all of the CMS settings I have seen posted are way off the mark of a good image.

I am quite certain at this point that the CMS does not work properly. As many others have found, it works for a specific stimulus level (the one calibrated against) but then falls apart with significant error at other stimulus levels.

Clearly the way the THX mode is implemented is different than how CMS is implemented, as THX mode does NOT have any trace of this issue. Nor does the standard OOTB settings (both track fine across different stimulus levels).

This is not just by the meter, but rather I can clearly see obvious color errors when watching certain scenes with program material, even though the CMS measures great at 100%.

Next I'm going to post below a CMS test that I hope you will try and report back on.
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post #556 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:00 PM
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Thanks Jeff for posting that. Man it would be great if the CMS could produce results that tracked like this. Just curious - did you measure THX mode with the default colors (not tweaked user1)? If so were there hue issues in THX mode that were resolved when you calibrated user1 to D65? Also what gamma is THX mode measuring at? Can you post that graph please? Thanks.
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post #557 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:10 PM
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THX was out before with the hard coded 6500K color temp setting. I didn't keep the gray scale/gamma graph but it stayed very close to 2.2 gamma.
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post #558 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Here are my THX (custom1 color temp 6500k) readings fore 100 and 75% color windows.

This looks great Jeff!

How close is your greyscale? What is you average gamma? Any chance you could post this data/graph as well?

Regarding the picture you get with these settings, is there anything you're still unhappy with (apart from the fact it's probably a bit unsaturated for your taste)?

Did you experiment with the color setting to try to oversaturate a bit to your taste? Does is affect the linearity in a negative way?

I assume the results you've posted are obtained without any help from the Lumagen?
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post #559 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

THX was out before with the hard coded 6500K color temp setting. I didn't keep the gray scale/gamma graph but it stayed very close to 2.2 gamma.

When you say "THX was out" can you please be a little more specific? What about it was out? Were all the primaries and secondaries shifted a bit? Or just the primaries?

At any rate it is very good news to hear, now that we've figured out how to get THX mode to use a custom grayscale, that the RS20 can be perfectly aligned to Rec 709!

However I still need to resolve the CMS issue. This is because I like things over saturated a bit. For instance I like red slightly deeper than it looks at Rec 709. So I want to tweak things to taste, but cannot due to the issues with CMS. Also I want to run gamma 2.3 or 2.4, which is not possible in THX mode.
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post #560 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:33 PM
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This may be defeating the whole purpose, but it seems like using the THX mode and one of the cheaper Lumagen processors for gamma/greyscale would get things just about perfect.
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post #561 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Did you experiment with the color setting to try to oversaturate a bit to your taste? Does is affect the linearity in a negative way?

I can't speak for Jeff and hope to hear from him on this. I can say that I did play with increasing the Color control with THX mode to get things a bit more over saturated and preliminarily like the results.

First some brief background - I like slightly over saturated colors. Rec 709 of course is technically correct but I just find it a bit too flat and like the colors a bit more vivid.

In particular I prefer red a bit deeper than Rec 709. A perfect example of this is the woman's red dress in the opening scene of Sin City. If you want it with the default OOTB (non-THX) her dress is deep, deep red. That is way over the top for my taste. However if you want it in THX mode the red is rather washed out looking. So I prefer something in between (but leaning more toward the Rec 709 point).

So with the inability to have a properly working CMS on the RS20 as it seems, I have at this point given up trying to make my own CMS setting that mimics most of Rec 709 except for making red and green a bit oversatured.

I decided to try THX mode and crack the color control up until the dress was a bit more vivid red. The setting was about color +15 with THX mode. At this point the dress was more vivid and more pleasing to the eye, but I would prefer it a bit deeper. However no amount of the color control increase will solve that.

I've checked other colors and they seem mostly in check at Color +15. Yellow-ish tones are a bit bloomy looking and look a bit better with Color at +10. Generally most of the material I've checked in the 10-15 range looks good so I may settle somewhere around there.

Now I will say that I have not measured THX mode with the increased color setting, so I do not know if this is pushing the brightness up or down for each color and do not know what impact it is having on xy either. I do know that it is more pleasing to the eye, and until I come across something objectionable in my viewing I'm going to run with this for now.

If you guys give this a try please let me know what you think. Likewise if anyone measures what the increased color control does to THX please post as I don't know when I will have a chance to do so.
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post #562 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I can't speak for Jeff and hope to hear from him on this. I can say that I did play with increasing the Color control with THX mode to get things a bit more over saturated and preliminarily like the results.

Thanks LovingDVD. Did you adjust the greyscale as well using the service menu trick? How close to D65 do you track?
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post #563 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:48 PM
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Here is a quick and easy test that clearly shows the CMS tracking issue:

1) Use a 75% pattern and calibrate to Rec 709 using the CMS. You will be able to get it very close on for xyY.

2) Now put up a 100% full field for red. You will instantly noticed that it is significantly washed out. Measure it and you will see its x value is way low. We are talking about a huge margin of error here, and one that is clearly noticeable just by looking at the pattern.

3) If you want, try and fix red so that it is back at its Rec 709 point using a 100% pattern. You will be able to change the CMS controls to do so. Now go back and measure 75% and you will now find that red is way oversaturated at 75%.

I believe the above clearly demonstrates the issue. It impacts other colors like yellow, green and cyan similarly (but not quite as extensive as red). I also think that there are errors like this at lower stimulus too, like 25%, 50% etc. So this is impacting color rendering across the board.

For those of you that are reporting that the CMS is working just fine, please try the above test. Let us know what you find.
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post #564 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Here are my THX (custom1 color temp 6500k) readings fore 100 and 75% color windows.

You guys have made my day! Thanks Jeff for posting those beautiful graphs! I was wondering if I had made a mistake selling my RS1. Now there is no doubt, I made the right choice. No more oversaturation.

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
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post #565 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks LovingDVD. Did you adjust the greyscale as well using the service menu trick? How close to D65 do you track?

Although I have not measured THX mode yet, I did change it in the service menu to use Custom1. Custom1 is calibrated to D65.

Just by using the gain/offsets for Custom1 I was able to get a dE of 3 or less for 20-100%. However things fell apart quite a bit for 5-15%. I was able to use the custom gamma controls to fix this, and eventually obtained a dE of less than 3 for 5-100%.

But alas, you cannot apply a custom gamma to THX mode. Others have reported they had similar grayscale tracking issues below 20% so I don't think its just me or my pj. So one should expect to have some grayscale tracking issues below 20% if they use the THX mode which cannot be corrected, at least so it seems at this point.
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post #566 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

You guys have made my day! Thanks Jeff for posting those beautiful graphs! I was wondering if I had made a mistake selling my RS1. Now there is no doubt, I made the right choice. No more oversaturation.

Its definitely great news and a step in the right direction. However it doesn't excuse the CMS issues nor is it a substitute for a properly working CMS. I bought this pj expecting a properly working CMS so that I could get the colors to how I prefer.

If we can figure out how to apply a custom gamma to THX mode that would help quite a bit. Unfortunately this does not appear possible.
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post #567 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I can't speak for Jeff and hope to hear from him on this. I can say that I did play with increasing the Color control with THX mode to get things a bit more over saturated and preliminarily like the results.
.

I like a bit more saturation too, however increasing the color control beyond 0 in THX mode leads to the colours getting clipped.
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post #568 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 02:42 PM
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With almost 20 pages in this thread it would be great to summarise what has been found, and what the community agreed tweaks are. I get my RS20 in 2 weeks and would like to calibrate it myself however there is a steep learning curve for someone to go through this thread to work out what to do.

Also regarding adjusting gamma in THX mode, for those that use a HTPC you can use software like this below, so you can have THX color correction, service menu gray level adjusment for THX and adjustable gamma without having to resort to an external processor:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=gamma
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1097653

I'm assuming adjusting gamma in the HTPC is no better or worse than using an outboard processor.
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post #569 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by deandob View Post

With almost 20 pages in this thread it would be great to summarise what has been found, and what the community agreed tweaks are.

+1. A recap would be nice.

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post #570 of 1782 Old 01-03-2009, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Its definitely great news and a step in the right direction. However it doesn't excuse the CMS issues nor is it a substitute for a properly working CMS. I bought this pj expecting a properly working CMS so that I could get the colors to how I prefer.

If we can figure out how to apply a custom gamma to THX mode that would help quite a bit. Unfortunately this does not appear possible.

I understand. I have been on the other side of the fence with the oversaturated colors of the RS1 and few reasonable options. It is great substitute for a CMS for me!I did not want to fool around with a CMS if I did not have to do so. Now all I have to do is calibrate and use the grayscale for user 1? That's awesome!!!

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