Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

OK, so without further adieu, here are the settings:

- First, make sure you have a flat grayscale. These CMS settings were derived using a grayscale that tracked with a dE of <3 for 5-100%.

- I am not sure how relevant it is to the CMS, but I did this work with a custom gamma curve with the gamma correction set to 2.3 and values tweaked along the curve as needed to fix the tracking below 20% as well as to improve 70-95%. This measures to a 2.2 gamma. If you do not have the capabilities to set this up do not worry about it as it may make only a marginal difference (tho I can't be sure).

- Set the Color control to 0

- Set the CMS settings as follows:

Color, Hue, Saturation, Brightness
R: -2, -15, 9
Y: 3, -25, 15
G: -10, -25, 13
C: -1, -30, 6
B: 0, -10, 15
M: -1, -12, 10

- Reduce the color control to taste, if desired. I like it right at 0. However if you find Rec Ldvd to be a bit more over saturated than you'd like, drop color down a bit. This will also help remove clipping (generally most clipping is gone by -4ish) and help tame green a bit more, but keep an eye on your sky-blues and yellows (in particular) which will start to flatten out with a reduced Color setting to actually be undersaturated compared to THX mode.

These settings are the work of approximately 60 hours of experimentation, redos, and tweaking to wee hours of the morning over and over, and is based on the input, theories and feedback that many here have shared for which I am very thankful. I hope you enjoy these and only ask that if you repost these settings elsewhere you provide credit to AVS forum members, and that one day Chris takes me for a spin in his toy. Of course if I had to do it over it would take a lot less time with the hindsight of everything learned, but surely I hope I never have to do so!

We can't be sure at this point that CMS settings are transferable from machine to machine, but unlike grayscale tracking, I anticipate it should be (as an example I think we all have the same CMS settings for preset modes like Natural etc, although I don't think we ever verified this). If not, then I previously outlined the approach I used, and keep in mind the approach for CMS Setting 2 was the clear winner.

Also I should close by saying that while I am finally happy with the colors, it is not a substitute for a fix and/or better implementation to the CMS which is still sorely needed. I view this as a temporary (hopefully) work around.

The fact that I like colors a bit over saturated played well into the balancing act made possible with these settings, but for those looking to dial things in right at Rec 709, I think it will be even harder to find a good balance.

Please be sure to post your impressions on how these settings look on your RS20 and whether you change the color control or prefer it at 0. I look forward to your feedback and suggested tweaks to the settings are of course very welcome and encouraged. Enjoy!!

LovingDVD,

As we were working on our opus simultaneously, I had more time to digest your findings this morning and would like to try to calibrate my PJ using your RecLDvd / CMS2 / Color 0 approach, as it looks like plugging your settings into my PJ doesn't work. It also looks like it should be the best compromise for me (especially if it comes up as you experience it, and not as I did, and I can always tweak it if I'm still unhappy with the skin tones) to compare with Tweaked THX before I settle for one.

So could you please provide the following:

- A definition for RecLDvd (ie, xyY for Primaries and Secondaries).
- Your HCFR files (or at least gamut screenshots and data at 75% and 100%) to get a better idea of what you get on your PJ.
- Could you also measure the THX gamut at 75% and 100% on your PJ and post the files so that we can rule out meter differences?

One last question, I plan to follow exactly your procedure, so should I calibrate with a color setting at -10, trying to reach RecLDvd at 75%, then raise the color setting to 0, or should I calibrate directly with a color setting at 0, as I suspect it will be what I'm going to settle for?

Many thanks again for all your work and for providing the above if you can.

In the meantime, I'm going to tweak my greyscale with gamma settings similar to yours (2.3 reference, 2.2 effective) as this is my preference as well, and do a bit more testing with my contrast.
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post #902 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Hi Googer,

Thanks very much for these, the gamuts look quite nice (similar to what I and LG got a few weeks ago), but apart from the more reasonable compromise on luminance (which is what we had settled for as soon as page 7 or 8 of this thread to get an accurate-ish gamut at 100%), there is no doubt you're clipping on green. Could you please comment on this? I you're not, I'll try your settings (or something close) as it means your compromise may be better than my 4th attempt.

Of course non of this is accurate enough for Tom, but I'm sure it must be visually quite pleasing. If I can get rid of the clipping, it's the compromise I like best at this stage (accurate-ish colors at 100%, slight oversaturation at 75%). I'm going to try and find the right value for me for color, between -8 (my 4th attempt) and LovingDVD's at 0.

I believe the slightly reduced contrast and tweaked gamma curve play key roles in making these settings work in practice. The reduced contrast limits the damage so-to-speak in regards to the amount of absolute color clipping going on, and the increased gamma on the high end pulls most stimulus levels down low enough that they're below the point of clipping in the first place. For a tiny bit of extra punch to the picture yet (but technically very slightly crushed blacks, and I do mean very slightly since 1% is still visible thanks to the lower gamma on the lower end ), you can also drop master brightness to -1 with the settings I posted.
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post #903 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googer View Post

I believe the slightly reduced contrast and tweaked gamma curve play key roles in making the posted settings work in practice. The reduced contrast limits the damage so-to-speak in regards to the amount of absolute color clipping going on, and the increased gamma on the high end pulls most stimulus levels down low enough that they're below the point of clipping in the first place. For a tiny bit of extra punch to the picture yet (but technically very slightly crushed blacks, and I do mean very slightly since 1% is still visible thanks to the lower gamma on the lower end ), you can also drop master brightness to -1 with the settings I posted.

Thanks for the details, I'll try yours (it would be a good opportunity to try a quite extreme gamma tweak), I'll also try to calibrate to RecLDvd if Ric provides the requested info, and I'll report on which I like best on my PJ. I may end up simply tuning my 4th attempt to limit clipping, because I'd like to resume watching films at some point (and won't have much time during the day as my holiday is over this week-end)... Back to work during the day and entertainent in the evening from Monday!
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post #904 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 07:31 AM
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I did some subjective real-world viewing with lovingdvd's settings and have to say they're not for me. Reds are a bit strong for my liking and greens are noticeably a bit dark. In the blue-green spectrum, it also appeared to be tending a bit much towards blue on the lower end as compared to, say, THX or my settings.

-

Now for my comment on Manni's 5th attempt settings: I didn't look at these subjectively at all but from my own attempts with the CMS, I can point out a major boo-boo you have since I made it earlier too. Don't change the blue hue so much; while it pulls the blue point towards Rec 709 a bit, it has drastically negative impact on purplish blues and purples, making purplish blues purple and purples more of a magenta.
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post #905 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googer View Post

I did some subjective real-world viewing with lovingdvd's settings and have to say they're not for me. Reds are a bit strong for my liking and greens are noticeably a bit dark. In the blue-green spectrum, it also appeared to be tending a bit much towards blue on the lower end as compared to, say, THX or my settings.

-

Now for my comment on Manni's 5th attempt settings: I didn't look at these subjectively at all but from my own attempts with the CMS, I can point out a major boo-boo you have since I made it earlier too. Don't change the blue hue so much; while it pulls the blue point towards Rec 709 a bit, it has drastically negative impact on purplish blues and purples, making purplish blues purple and purples more of a magenta.

Thanks, I'll correct that... I didn't have much time to watch these myself to be honest, as I had to dedicate a bit of time to family and work today, so I have no idea what mileage there is there (if any), given the compromise on luminance and saturation for green, yellow and cyan. It would be good to get subjective feedback from you and LDvd (or others). I plan to put my revised 4th attempt settings in user1, your settings in user2, RecLDvd in user3, and do some ABC comparative testing (with tweaked THX of course).
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post #906 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 07:56 AM
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You guys are making it sound a little like I am some accuracy fanatic who will only accept total perfection. That's not it at all. I am just a little puzzled over the incredibly focused and dedicated attempt to try to get what is clearly a defective tool (the RS20 CMS) to work properly when you already have an alternative at your fingertips, the THX mode, which performs quite nicely. It is not perfect, but as presets go, it is quite good and an infinite improvement over a stock RS1/2.

I understand that Ric wants more saturation than the THX psuedo-709 gamut provides. But what about the rest of you? Is it that you can't adjust the gamma? The THX gamma is pretty close to spot on 2.2, right, which is also pretty good, better than the RS1.

What's the beef?

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ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #907 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 08:08 AM
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We're just having fun with you. I've already said what I feel are THX mode's biggest shortcomings, one of which is (as you said) the lack of custom gamma support, which shouldn't be understated since it makes a big difference in getting good D65 tracking and JVC's preset gammas (including THX's locked 2.2) all track around .1 lower than they claim, so THX tracks at around 2.1. The other one that really sticks out to me is the rec 601 green; even though it's relatively minor, the little bit it tends towards yellow is very noticeable to me. Clearly I have no red-green color blindness even though I know it runs in my family.

On the plus side for THX, I do now retract my earlier statement about THX mode not tracking well across multiple stimulus levels; that seems to have been an anomalous set of measurements that I'd taken, even though it was 100% repeatable at the time (which I did because I couldn't believe what I was seeing myself ). What I was seeing then was that lower stimulus levels were undersaturated, with lower levels being closer and closer to D65 the lower you went, down to a low of only around 60% saturation at 5% stimulus. Remeasuring now, I don't get such measurements and even 5% color stimulus is measuring full saturation as it should.
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post #908 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks for the details, I'll try yours (it would be a good opportunity to try a quite extreme gamma tweak), I'll also try to calibrate to RecLDvd if Ric provides the requested info, and I'll report on which I like best on my PJ. I may end up simply tuning my 4th attempt to limit clipping, because I'd like to resume watching films at some point (and won't have much time during the day as my holiday is over this week-end)... Back to work during the day and entertainent in the evening from Monday!

By the way, if you're going to play around with a truly custom gamma along the lines of what mine is like, I suspect one thing that helps it not stick out as ever being obviously wrong / strange is that I took the time to get the luminance ramp to still appear smooth. If you look at the luminance chart in my data, you'll see what I mean - even though it doesn't strictly track to any given gamma curve, it still is a smooth ramp with no odd bumps, flat portions, etc.
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post #909 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 09:35 AM
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I'll be the first to say it. I like Cinema 1 mode.

Affable Nitwit
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post #910 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You guys are making it sound a little like I am some accuracy fanatic who will only accept total perfection. That's not it at all. I am just a little puzzled over the incredibly focused and dedicated attempt to try to get what is clearly a defective tool (the RS20 CMS) to work properly when you already have an alternative at your fingertips, the THX mode, which performs quite nicely. It is not perfect, but as presets go, it is quite good and an infinite improvement over a stock RS1/2.

I understand that Ric wants more saturation than the THX psuedo-709 gamut provides. But what about the rest of you? Is it that you can't adjust the gamma? The THX gamma is pretty close to spot on 2.2, right, which is also pretty good, better than the RS1.

What's the beef?

My beef with THX mode is the inability to adjust the D65 greyscale along the curve. Using the RGB gains to get the best tracking along the curve can mean reducing lumens at the top. I'd also like a gamma of at least 2.3. All in all I'm mystified that the THX setting is so rigid. If they are worried about people mangling the THX settings and giving a false impression of what THX mode should look like they should give us another setting that is called something else and is adjustable but has the same gamut and tracking as the THX setting. I was really hoping that Cinema1 used that approach but unfortunately that's not the case.
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post #911 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

My beef with THX mode is the inability to adjust the D65 greyscale along the curve. Using the RGB gains to get the best tracking along the curve can mean reducing lumens at the top. I'd also like a gamma of at least 2.3. All in all I'm mystified that the THX setting is so rigid. If they are worried about people mangling the THX settings and giving a false impression of what THX mode should look like they should give us another setting that is called something else and is adjustable but has the same gamut and tracking as the THX setting. I was really hoping that Cinema1 used that approach but unfortunately that's not the case.

+1. I have not watched enough of tweaked THX, but I know that the greyscale I could get without gamma adjustment is not good enough for me, especially below 20 IRE and in the mid range. Plus I like as well a gamma of at least 2.2, up to 2.3, which is not what tweaked THX delivers. Finally I think JeffY reported that despite a tweaked greyscale, THX still had a green tint, which is what put me off untweaked THX initially.

This being said, if I can't see the greenish whites and unhealthy skin tones that I could see in the opening of Pirates of the Carribean, I'll be happy to settle for THX until a proper fix is found. This is the first clip I'll watch to check.

I'll watch cinema1 as well, as it offers gamma adjustments good linearity, so it may be a better compromise than THX despite oversaturated green (which you may have noticed I don't care that much about. If LG likes it, it's a good start
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post #912 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 10:44 AM
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Manni - hang tight for a bit. I'm just catching up now with the thread and will work my way through over the next few minutes and will gladly provide the Rec Ldvd points you requested.
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post #913 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

LovingDVD,

So could you please provide the following:

- A definition for RecLDvd (ie, xyY for Primaries and Secondaries).

This is subject to change, as I may try and see if I can get green a bit better at 75% (which will come at the direct expense of 100%). So the green y may come down a tad, but this will do for revision 1.

Rec Ldvd r1

Note: Y is going to be relative to your white point, so I calculated these based on a Y of white for 100 so you can easily see the %. Also you will note that Y is different than the % for Rec 709 for each color, as Y is dependant on the gamut so these Ys reflect my custom gamut and are technically correct for it despite being slightly different than Rec 709 Y.

Color x,y,Y
W: 0.3127, 0.3290, 100
R: 0.654, 0.0.330, 22.545
G: 0.300, 0.643, 69.8334
B: 0.140, 0.060, 7.6217
Y: 0.437, 0.522, 92.3783
C: 0.214, 0.329, 77.455
M: 0.320, 0.154, 30.1666

Quote:


- Your HCFR files (or at least gamut screenshots and data at 75% and 100%) to get a better idea of what you get on your PJ.
- Could you also measure the THX gamut at 75% and 100% on your PJ and post the files so that we can rule out meter differences?

I will post these once I have a chance to remeasure with the tweaks I made by eye, which are already reflected in the Rec Ldvd CMS settings I posted yesterday. I'll try to get these posted later today or tomorrow.

[qupte]
One last question, I plan to follow exactly your procedure, so should I calibrate with a color setting at -10, trying to reach RecLDvd at 75%, then raise the color setting to 0, or should I calibrate directly with a color setting at 0, as I suspect it will be what I'm going to settle for?
[/quote]

Glad you asked. You must calibrate with color at -10, reach Rec Ldvd at 75%, then BALANCE out 100% a bit by sacrificing a little lower Ys for C G Y to help keep 100% ok (this is highly subjective but very key in obtaining optimal results), then POST calibration raise color to 0 or somewhere between -10 and 0 to suit to taste.

Quote:


Many thanks again for all your work and for providing the above if you can.

In the meantime, I'm going to tweak my greyscale with gamma settings similar to yours (2.3 reference, 2.2 effective) as this is my preference as well, and do a bit more testing with my contrast.

My pleasure. Let me know how it goes.
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post #914 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 11:32 AM
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Regarding the trick of setting a higher gamma and then bumping up 5% - how much should I bump 5% up by?

IOW when I access the white point at 5% say it shows 35 as the number. Am I suppose to raise that by 5%, to say 37? That doesn't seem like it would be enough. Or am I suppose to raise it up 5% as in make it the same level as 10% in the curve? So let's say 5% is 35 and 10% shows 72. Do I then set 5% to 72 so it matches the same white point as at 10%?

Also what is the best targeted gamma to do this with - 2.3, 2.4 or 2.5? And is that the actual gamma we are shooting for or the # to use for the gamma correction (which is one higher)?

I very quickly tried this last night but could not assess this because: a) I didn't know how much to boost the 5% level by, and b) adjusting the white point destroys the grayscale at that level and surround levels so it will take a lot of work to redo the grayscale there with the custom gamma after bumping it. I don't mind that, but want to make sure I'm targeting the right point before going through that effort. Thanks.
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post #915 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Googer View Post

I did some subjective real-world viewing with lovingdvd's settings and have to say they're not for me. Reds are a bit strong for my liking and greens are noticeably a bit dark. In the blue-green spectrum, it also appeared to be tending a bit much towards blue on the lower end as compared to, say, THX or my settings.

Yep. This is mostly by design, but overall they are a bit darker than I would prefer. This is because otherwise it gets way wrong at 100%. Again this comes back to balance. The more you balance toward oversaturation, the better it holds up.

Quote:


Now for my comment on Manni's 5th attempt settings: I didn't look at these subjectively at all but from my own attempts with the CMS, I can point out a major boo-boo you have since I made it earlier too. Don't change the blue hue so much; while it pulls the blue point towards Rec 709 a bit, it has drastically negative impact on purplish blues and purples, making purplish blues purple and purples more of a magenta.

+1. This is partially why blue is pushed a tad bit more than I'd like with my settings. Otherwise the lighter blue shades start to be off.
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post #916 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

...
I understand that Ric wants more saturation than the THX psuedo-709 gamut provides. But what about the rest of you? Is it that you can't adjust the gamma? The THX gamma is pretty close to spot on 2.2, right, which is also pretty good, better than the RS1.
What's the beef?

Tom - here is a brief overview of why THX mode is not an acceptable solution for many folks, even those who want to target Rec 709:

- THX mode measures decent, but not exact for many. It has some hue issues and is slightly off at 100% IIRC, at least one mine and a few others that posted CIE charts. Bottom line is that it is indeed close but folks want to dial it in exactly, which is the point of having a CMS to begin with as you know.

- THX mode does not allow a custom gamma curve. Many would be ok with the default 2.2 curve I suppose. HOWEVER, grayscale falls apart at 20% and below and cannot be fixed with the offsets without impacting 25-45%. Therefore it is mandatory to use a custom gamma curve for those who want a flat grayscale below 25%. This is my experience measuring multiple RS20s and the experience of everyone I've seen post numbers and comment on it. Running without a flat grayscale below 25 is noticeable to me as dark areas look too green.

- You cannot get access to the Sharpness or Detail Enhance functions in THX mode. I've done a lot of experimenting with these of late and I find these very helpful. I'll post more on that below.

There may be a few other points, but these are the big ones OTTOMH. Not to mention for folks that prefer a custom gamut that is more saturated than THX but less than OOTB, THX mode is not a solution.

I hope this clarifies why many people are willing to spend hours and hours experimenting to find work arounds for the CMS. If only it was implemented properly this would be a 15 minute exercise and would solve what everyone was looking for, Rec 709 folks and otherwise.
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post #917 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

My beef with THX mode is the inability to adjust the D65 greyscale along the curve. Using the RGB gains to get the best tracking along the curve can mean reducing lumens at the top. I'd also like a gamma of at least 2.3. All in all I'm mystified that the THX setting is so rigid. If they are worried about people mangling the THX settings and giving a false impression of what THX mode should look like they should give us another setting that is called something else and is adjustable but has the same gamut and tracking as the THX setting. I was really hoping that Cinema1 used that approach but unfortunately that's not the case.

+1. Exactly! OK I can understanding that they want to list that it has a THX certified mode for sales/marketing purposes. And I can understand if that places restrictions on what they can and cannot do in THX mode.

But then the solution is simple. Give another mode that has the exact same setup that makes THX mode work, and just call it something else and allow everything to be tweakable as with the other normal modes.

At any rate, the above would be a good short term workaround, but still not a substitute for re-implementing the CMS so that it actually works like a real CMS.
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post #918 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

This is subject to change, as I may try and see if I can get green a bit better at 75% (which will come at the direct expense of 100%). So the green y may come down a tad, but this will do for revision 1.

Rec Ldvd r1

Thanks!
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post #919 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 01:26 PM
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I had some time to experiment with the sharpness and image enhance controls last night. Overall I liked what these controls do for the image if set properly.

First I focused on the Detail Enhance function. It seems to operate on the higher frequencies and helped "tighten" the image when complex patterns are on the screen. I don't mean patterns as in calibration patterns, but rather patterns that appear in real world material.

For example, there are some great shots of the roof tops in Kung Foo Panda, and a few that are rather zoomed in. On pause, the roof top looks focused and clean. However with the Detail Enhance up the pattern in the roof top becomes more tighter, crisp (but not without artificial looking edges), and clean.

After some experimentation I determined a setting of 35 to be ideal. I know that sounds high on its scale of 0 to 50, but I found this provided the best result and created no artifacts or other issues that I could notice.

Here is one way you can check this. Use the test patterns on the Spiderma 3 Blu-ray in the PS3. Get to the main movie menu and enter 7669. Go to the second pattern. Now look at the wedge/spoke like patterns (top right and bottom left) with Detail Enhance at 0.

Notice how as the spokes get closer to the center it turns into gray/dark gray and you can't see the tips where all wedges would meed. Now crack the Detail Enhance up toward 35. Notice as you do this that seemingly magically the inner part of the wedges pick up a LOT more detail. A good portion of that gray/blurred area is now replaced with more of the spokes, meaning you can now see more resolution as the spokes move closer to the center. Moving beyond 35 created no obvious improvement (nor did it create any noticeable issues) so I left it at 35. Below 35 you could start to see the resolution in the wedge disappearing again, so I settled on 35.

Next I turned my attention to the Sharpness control. I know that the Sharpness control in general has a bad reputation (not specific to the RS20 but calibration in general) and a lot of times people say to leave it off. However I find that a small amount of it on the RS20 can be very advantageous.

I found that a Sharpness setting starting around 5 added some nice definition to images. Again with Kung Foo Panda, the sharpness setting helped bring textures into better definition and focus.

As a quick example go to the opening of the 2nd chapter (I think its the 2nd) where the Panda comes out of his dream and is laying on the floor. Look at the definition in his pants (yellow / orange material). The pattern looks a bit soft. As you bring sharpness up to about 5-7 you'll see the pattern become more nicely defined and focused.

Of course adjusting to taste if fine so go higher if you like. However with settings above 10 or so a slight amount of artificial ringing will start to be apparent on edges of fine objects. I actually liked how sharpness looked on some movies much higher - like in the 20s, but it did add some artifacts so you have to decide whether its worth it. For instance the sharpness control made every single grain of sand in the Spiderman 3 scene when he first emerges from the sand be seemingly individually visible, even if it is artificial.

At any rate I bring this up because its easy to overlook controls like these as being not useful, but with the right amount applied to taste I think you will find it adds some nice extra textures to the image.

If you experiment please post back about what settings you find to be ideal for your tastes, as I'm curious what you find works best for you.
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post #920 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I had some time to experiment with the sharpness and image enhance controls last night. Overall I liked what these controls do for the image if set properly.

First I focused on the Detail Enhance function. It seems to operate on the higher frequencies and helped "tighten" the image when complex patterns are on the screen. I don't mean patterns as in calibration patterns, but rather patterns that appear in real world material.

For example, there are some great shots of the roof tops in Kung Foo Panda, and a few that are rather zoomed in. On pause, the roof top looks focused and clean. However with the Detail Enhance up the pattern in the roof top becomes more tighter, crisp (but not without artificial looking edges), and clean.

After some experimentation I determined a setting of 35 to be ideal. I know that sounds high on its scale of 0 to 50, but I found this provided the best result and created no artifacts or other issues that I could notice.

Here is one way you can check this. Use the test patterns on the Spiderma 3 Blu-ray in the PS3. Get to the main movie menu and enter 7669. Go to the second pattern. Now look at the wedge/spoke like patterns (top right and bottom left) with Detail Enhance at 0.

Notice how as the spokes get closer to the center it turns into gray/dark gray and you can't see the tips where all wedges would meed. Now crack the Detail Enhance up toward 35. Notice as you do this that seemingly magically the inner part of the wedges pick up a LOT more detail. A good portion of that gray/blurred area is now replaced with more of the spokes, meaning you can now see more resolution as the spokes move closer to the center. Moving beyond 35 created no obvious improvement (nor did it create any noticeable issues) so I left it at 35. Below 35 you could start to see the resolution in the wedge disappearing again, so I settled on 35.

Next I turned my attention to the Sharpness control. I know that the Sharpness control in general has a bad reputation (not specific to the RS20 but calibration in general) and a lot of times people say to leave it off. However I find that a small amount of it on the RS20 can be very advantageous.

I found that a Sharpness setting starting around 5 added some nice definition to images. Again with Kung Foo Panda, the sharpness setting helped bring textures into better definition and focus.

As a quick example go to the opening of the 2nd chapter (I think its the 2nd) where the Panda comes out of his dream and is laying on the floor. Look at the definition in his pants (yellow / orange material). The pattern looks a bit soft. As you bring sharpness up to about 5-7 you'll see the pattern become more nicely defined and focused.

Of course adjusting to taste if fine so go higher if you like. However with settings above 10 or so a slight amount of artificial ringing will start to be apparent on edges of fine objects. I actually liked how sharpness looked on some movies much higher - like in the 20s, but it did add some artifacts so you have to decide whether its worth it. For instance the sharpness control made every single grain of sand in the Spiderman 3 scene when he first emerges from the sand be seemingly individually visible, even if it is artificial.

At any rate I bring this up because its easy to overlook controls like these as being not useful, but with the right amount applied to taste I think you will find it adds some nice extra textures to the image.

If you experiment please post back about what settings you find to be ideal for your tastes, as I'm curious what you find works best for you.

This is great info LDvd, I'll experiment with these later.
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post #921 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 01:42 PM
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I have done more testing between different presets and settings and here are my latest findings:

- THX with a tweaked color temp is much better. The green tint is gone from the opening of "Pirates", the skin tones are much better. I still find it very slightly undersaturated (a color of +5 is more to my taste).

- I did more testing with Cinema1, and like LG, I like it a lot. Funnily enough, colors are very similar (subjectively) to THX with colors at +5. The adjustable gamma makes a HUGE difference, and although I am still experimenting with this, this point alone wins over THX for me. As we know, like THX, it tracks perfectly at 100% and 75% (no clipping at all). And finally, the biggest practical difference from THX... It has a button on the remote!

So I'm giving up on fine-tuning using the CMS. For my personal taste, Cinema1 is the ticket. It offers more flexibility, control and practicality than THX, and although it's not strictly REC709, it offers a small amount of oversaturation that I find very pleasing, and looks absolutely gorgeous (to my taste again).

I'm off to do some more gamma tweaking, and to run a few contrast tests, but as far as I'm concerned the case is closed. I'll happily wait for a firmware fix with this one.

LG, you were the first to say it, but I'm sure we won't be the last.
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post #922 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 01:46 PM
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if anyones interested my rs20 after a jason calibration looks best to my eyes on thx followed by cinema 1..both pretty close
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post #923 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I have done more testing between different presets and settings and here are my latest findings:

- THX with a tweaked color temp is much better. The green tint is gone from the opening of "Pirates", the skin tones are much better. I still find it very slightly undersaturated (a color of +5 is more to my taste).

Yes as I reported earlier I too like THX +color, maybe about +7 to +10. The trouble was that for my tastes I couldn't hit the slightly over saturated/deeper red tone I was going for.

Quote:
- I did more testing with Cinema1, and like LG, I like it a lot. Funnily enough, colors are very similar (subjectively) to THX with colors at +5. The adjustable gamma makes a HUGE difference, and although I am still experimenting with this, this point alone wins over THX for me. As we know, like THX, it tracks perfectly at 100% and 75% (no clipping at all). And finally, the biggest practical difference from THX... It has a button on the remote!

That's great to hear! I never looked at this option. I'll check this out tonight and do some A/B testing against my CMS settings to see how they compare. If it'll give me the same red I dialed into the CMS while keeping green a bit under what I have it that would be very good.

Quote:
So I'm giving up on fine-tuning using the CMS.

I don't blame you. I'm there with you. At this point, worse case scenario I can be happy with Rec Ldvd and deal with the occasional errors. That aside, I still may try to tweak a few things in it.

Quote:
For my personal taste, Cinema1 is the ticket. It offers more flexibility, control and practicality than THX, and although it's not strictly REC709, it offers a small amount of oversaturation that I find very pleasing, and looks absolutely gorgeous (to my taste again).

I'm off to do some more gamma tweaking, and to run a few contrast tests, but as far as I'm concerned the case is closed. I'll happily wait for a firmware fix with this one.

Did you measure cinema1? If so can you post the CIE chart? Did xyY track as expected across 75% and 100%?
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post #924 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

...If they are worried about people mangling the THX settings and giving a false impression of what THX mode should look like they should give us another setting that is called something else and is adjustable but has the same gamut and tracking as the THX setting. I was really hoping that Cinema1 used that approach but unfortunately that's not the case.

I haven't checked it yet but from initial reports its starting to sound like that is what they did with cinema1, plus adds a little oversaturation to spruce things up. Except of course they didn't provide a way for us to get at the internal settings so we can change the saturation to taste. Clearly this is not using the same approach as the CMS.

It still seems very odd they would provide a CMS that doesn't act like a full CMS, and then use their own method internally to provide two separate gamuts that track linearly (THX and cinema1).
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post #925 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Did you measure cinema1? If so can you post the CIE chart? Did xyY track as expected across 75% and 100%?

Yes and I posted all my HCFR files yesterday (zip file, in third post)

Quick update:

I have spent a bit more time on the greyscale and with color temp adjustments only, I managed to dial an almost perfect greyscale from 30IRE up (dE < 3.5 up to 100 IRE, 10 for 10 and 5.4 for 20. It's definitely worth it to spend as much time as necessary on the color temps, given how tricky the gamma controls are. Thanks to Mark and Googer again for the tutorial, it works!

This should allow to further improve THX, which will be good for further comparison later.

I'm fine-tuning gamma now...
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post #926 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Yes and I posted all my HCFR files yesterday (zip file, in third post)

Quick update:

I have spent a bit more time on the greyscale and with color temp adjustments only, I managed to dial an almost perfect greyscale from 30IRE up (dE < 3.5 up to 100 IRE, 10 for 10 and 5.4 for 20. It's definitely worth it to spend as much time as necessary on the color temps, given how tricky the gamma controls are. Thanks to Mark and Googer again for the tutorial, it works!

This should allow to further improve THX, which will be good for further comparison later.

I'm fine-tuning gamma now...

Right. As you know the custom gamma correction will enable you to get 5-25 under dE 3.5 as well. This step is critical to eliminating the green or other off-color push from the lower %s otherwise. Huge difference here folks so well worth the extra calibration effort. It can be very tedious and take a long time though.
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post #927 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Right. As you know the custom gamma correction will enable you to get 5-25 under dE 3.5 as well. This step is critical to eliminating the green or other off-color push from the lower %s otherwise. Huge difference here folks so well worth the extra calibration effort. It can be very tedious and take a long time though.

yes, I'm doing this right now, 5% by eye and the rest with my i1. I had already dialed in a quick gamma adjusted but given how I like cinema1, and also the fact that I've logged more than 100 hours now, I decided to spend enough time on the greyscale to get it as close as possible.

I went for a reference gamma of 2.4, which should give me an effective average of around 2.3.
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post #928 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:52 PM
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Yes and I posted all my HCFR files yesterday (zip file, in third post)

OK - right, I remember now while I quickly dismissed cinema1 once I saw that CIE chart. What's with the huge shift in green x? Looks like it's around 0.240 when it should be at 0.300. I'll take your guys word for it that it looks good but not sure how that's possible based on that shift alone. Other than that the other points besides cyan seem to be right near Rec Ldvd so I may very well like it.
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post #929 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

yes, I'm doing this right now, 5% by eye and the rest with my i1. I had already dialed in a quick gamma adjusted but given how I like cinema1, and also the fact that I've logged more than 100 hours now, I decided to spend enough time on the greyscale to get it as close as possible.

I went for a reference gamma of 2.4, which should give me an effective average of around 2.3.

Before the RS20 I never had the ability to run with higher gammas. They get a lot of rave reviews, but I have to say that I find a 2.3 gamma (2.4 setting) a bit dark. Maybe this is because I'm running in high lamp with iris -15 and already at 10fL?

I posted some questions here earlier about the 5% bump trick to get clarification - perhaps that will help.
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post #930 of 1782 Old 01-10-2009, 02:56 PM
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OK - right, I remember now while I quickly dismissed cinema1 once I saw that CIE chart. What's with the huge shift in green x? Looks like it's around 0.240 when it should be at 0.300. I'll take your guys word for it that it looks good but not sure how that's possible based on that shift alone. Other than that the other points besides cyan seem to be right near Rec Ldvd so I may very well like it.

I know, that's why I dismissed it too, I thought, if the gamut is not adjustable, why bother with it, but in fact, when I spent more time watching it, I really liked it, and found it dfficult to spot noticeable differences with THX+5 from a color accuracy pov, with the added bonus of a higher gamma and flat greyscale (not as flat as the one I'm tweakin now though!)
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