Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 1782 Old 12-21-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Here are my setting from the last attempt.

Contrast 2
Brightness 1
Color -8
Tint 0
Color Temp 7500 offset red 1, offset green 1, offset Blue -1 (Grey scale finished on Lumagen)
Gamma Custom1 (2.3, unchanged)
Sharpness 0
Lens Aperture -15
Lamp normal

CMS (Hue, Saturation, Brightness)
Red -4,-10, 29
Yellow -4, -24, 11
Green -4, -30, 5
Cyan, 9,-30, 25
Blue 3,-3,30
Magenta 1,-11,28

Finally, this is a really good result (except your blue number, which is outside of the gamut and thus impossible. You should measure that again.)


x y Y CIE94 %L %S %H
R 0.647 0.329 0.215 0.9 0.5% 2.7% -0.3%
G 0.297 0.616 0.725 1.3 0.5% 4.1% 0.6%
B 0.140 0.048 0.081 0.1 5.5% 9.0% -0.9%
Y 0.423 0.512 0.934 1.1 0.3% 2.8% 0.3%
C 0.219 0.335 0.805 2.7 0.9% 7.9% -5.6%
M 0.323 0.149 0.290 1.3 0.8% 5.1% 1.0%

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
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post #152 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 04:59 AM
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[quote=JeffY;15350589]Here are my setting from the last attempt.

Contrast 2
Brightness 1
Color -8
Tint 0
Color Temp 7500 offset red 1, offset green 1, offset Blue -1 (Grey scale finished on Lumagen)
Gamma Custom1 (2.3, unchanged)
Sharpness 0
Lens Aperture -15
Lamp normal

CMS (Hue, Saturation, Brightness)
Red -4,-10, 29
Yellow -4, -24, 11
Green -4, -30, 5
Cyan, 9,-30, 25
Blue 3,-3,30
Magenta 1,-11,28[/Q
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post #153 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:35 AM
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Thanks Jeff and Manni for sharing your settings!
I should be getting my own in about 10 days from AVS.
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post #154 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:47 AM
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I'm now going to stop looking at test screens and start watching movies again, I have no doubt I'll be making a few more changes once I see a good variety of material. Probes can't replace a good eye.
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post #155 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Welcome to the world of calibration. It is typical that one adjustment will affect surrounding readings if not all readings. The multistep adjustments, including just cuts and drives are processed and interpolated into the the LUTs. Unlike analog, every step of luminance from each color is discrete, driven by a LUT. This is also why you might make 2, 3, 4... click adjustments with very little change, then a big change with the next click. Think of a 256-step grayscale (0-255) and having 10 or 11 points to adjust its uniformity, there has to be some mathematical formula to uniformly adjust/average the points between.

I have spent entire evenings, tweaking the internal curves on my RS2 trying to get grayscale and gamma correct, using a combination of the R, G, B & W curves, finally settling on flattest grayscale. Trying to correct gamma only, after grayscale was flat, resulted in a horrendous grayscale. Fortunately, I have the Radiance to further correct grayscale and gamma.

I predict the RS20 will be sort of a "poor-man's" (for lack of better words) solution to have a good system with grayscale, gamma and CMS. The RS20s performance can probably be greatly improved with the addition of a Radiance and still be cheaper then any other option with similar performance. I am assuming the RS10, just as the RS1, with a Radiance, to be a less than equal performing system, due to poor black level performance. However, the Iris in the RS10 could make a big difference and go a long way.

I would be interested in hearing what a few of you think a "package" (RS10 and RS20 + RadianceXE (HDMI 1.3 version) + pre-calibration) should/could sell for. Please PM me with your thoughts...... Obviously I can't put this package together below dealer cost and nothing for calibration. The RadianceXD will still be available ($1K less) and the package also without calibration.

I found the same. From all my testing on numerous RS20's, I find that you have to start by dialing down the color control a bit first, and then fine tune with the CMS. The CMS alone doesn't allow one to dial the colors in fully (not enough range ability).
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post #156 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 09:01 AM
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I should preface in this whole thread that EVERY projector is different. I have tested more than 30 RS20's so far and not one is near the same results. So what works for one may not (and probably will not) work for another). Most people know this but just clarifying...
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post #157 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I was going to say the same thing. According to Calman the gamma tracked nearly perfect at 2.2 in the THX mode. Unlike the RS2, this thing does track gamma almost perfectly in its presets. So if you select a 2.4, it actually is 2.4.

I have found the same...very little if any fine tuning needs to be done.
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post #158 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

You are now the second user to report this.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/8382069-post30.html

As stated above, the CMS doesn't have the ability alone of dialing all the colors in. I have had to drop the color control a bit in order to allow the CMS to continue to the proper points. Even so, that didn't allow for fully proper colors. As others have said, better than the RS1/2, but not perfect by any means.
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post #159 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Color is at -25. I am on travel now so no go on other settings. A previous poster asked what projector. I have a rs2. I don't have a rs20 or 750. I simply tinkered around with a friends.

I have found a range...-15 to about -22, depending on the projector. But starting from there I can dial in better all the primary and secondary colors using the CMS.
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post #160 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 11:24 AM
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I was referring to the RS2 with the -25 statement Jason, don't want to confuse anyone here.

I don't remember where I had set color at on the 750, again it wasn't mine.

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Sound And Vision Magazine

Click Here To See My Current Setup
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post #161 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 11:31 AM
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Both Manni and I ended up with -8 color.
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post #162 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I have found a range...-15 to about -22, depending on the projector. But starting from there I can dial in better all the primary and secondary colors using the CMS.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your feedback! I have two questions for you:
1) Do you manage to get cyan spot on (dE < 3) with just the CMS
2) With a color control as low as -15 / -22, how close are you regarding luminance? dE < 10 for all colors, or worse?

Thanks for your help
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post #163 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I have found a range...-15 to about -22, depending on the projector. But starting from there I can dial in better all the primary and secondary colors using the CMS.

That's good news. Thanks for the feedback.

Can we assume that you mean that better "dialing in all the primary and secondary colors" includes the color luminance values (based on new targets derived from calculations using the achieved new saturation points)?
My impression, from those who have had some recent successes with the CMS, has been that when the RS20 color (Chroma) control is dialed down much beyond -8 that the color luminance values come out too low and can not be brought up.

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post #164 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 01:54 PM
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For those who have successfully calibrated the RS20, can you report if the lumens output has been significantly decreased once calibrated?
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post #165 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Good info everyone. I'll capture some of the highlights in the first two posts of this thread when I get some free time after the holidays.

Quick question, does anyone else notice significant changes to brightness and contrast when RGB input is selected compared to 422 and 444? The RS1 was pretty close across all 3 formats but with there is a big difference with the RGB input with the RS20.
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post #166 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Good info everyone. I'll capture some of the highlights in the first two posts of this thread when I get some free time after the holidays.

Quick question, does anyone else notice significant changes to brightness and contrast when RGB input is selected compared to 422 and 444? The RS1 was pretty close across all 3 formats but with there is a big difference with the RGB input with the RS20.

depends on what your source is, are you using a reference signal generator for the three signals. If not, it is very reasonable that different input signals from a video source can have different signal levels.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
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post #167 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:33 PM
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On my unit green is clipped (seen on green ramp) pretty much regardless of what settings I use. Can someone else check to see if they have the same issue?
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post #168 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

On my unit green is clipped (seen on green ramp) pretty much regardless of what settings I use. Can someone else check to see if they have the same issue?

Jeff what colorimeter are you using?

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post #169 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:42 PM
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I'm using a Spyder 3 with Calman.
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post #170 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

I'm using a Spyder 3 with Calman.

Thanks.

That's the same combo I have, but not you're experience in using them.

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post #171 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

depends on what your source is, are you using a reference signal generator for the three signals. If not, it is very reasonable that different input signals from a video source can have different signal levels.

Using VP50 Pro, leaving the RS20 in auto mode and then cycling through RGB, 444, 422 formats. With the RS1 they all yielded similar settings but on my RS20 RGB is significantly off.
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post #172 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Using VP50 Pro, leaving the RS20 in auto mode and then cycling through RGB, 444, 422 formats. With the RS1 they all yielded similar settings but on my RS20 RGB is significantly off.

Using factory default settings or adjusted settings from the RS1. I'm not familiar with the VP50 settings....

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post #173 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:25 PM
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For those of us who also own the Lumagen Radiance, is it better to have all the CMS calibration to be performed on the RS20 only? Or should we just do this on the Lumagen Radiance? Or should it be a combination of both?

Which method would you all use to get the best result? Thanks.
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post #174 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Using VP50 Pro, leaving the RS20 in auto mode and then cycling through RGB, 444, 422 formats. With the RS1 they all yielded similar settings but on my RS20 RGB is significantly off.

I have found the VP50 to have poor test pattern accuracy. One of my clients used his to calibrate his display. It was one of the worst DIY jobs I have ever seen. When I compared the patterns to my AccuPel they were massively off.

The only test patterns generators I trust are AccuPel and Tektronix.
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post #175 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euryd View Post

For those of us who also own the Lumagen Radiance, is it better to have all the CMS calibration to be performed on the RS20 only? Or should we just do this on the Lumagen Radiance? Or should it be a combination of both?

Which method would you all use to get the best result? Thanks.

I prefer to get the projector/display as close as possible, without negative effects on the image, the finish in the Lumagen. Keeping any one adjustment to a minimum, generally has the least adverse effect on the image.

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post #176 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have found the VP50 to have poor test pattern accuracy. One of my clients used his to calibrate his display. It was one of the worst DIY jobs I have ever seen. When I compared the patterns to my AccuPel they were massively off.

The only test patterns generators I trust are AccuPel and Tektronix.

I wouldn't trust internal test patterns to calibrate a display either unless I had previously verified their accuracy. That wasn't my point though, my point was that I was using the VP50 as a source into the RS20 and can force the VP50 to output whatever format I want from RGB, 444, or 422. RGB is off significantly in contrast and brightness in my RS20 compared to 444 and 422 which wasn't the case with the RS1. Fwiw, it was immediately noticeable with video content and I haven't yet tried to see what happens when I use one of the internal VP50 test patterns...
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post #177 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Using factory default settings or adjusted settings from the RS1. I'm not familiar with the VP50 settings....

On the RS1 I kept all of the settings fixed and set to defaults and adjusted them in the VP50, but brightness and contrast were almost dead on. I think I set both brightness and contrast to -1. RGB, 444 and 422 all were about the same.
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post #178 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euryd View Post

For those of us who also own the Lumagen Radiance, is it better to have all the CMS calibration to be performed on the RS20 only? Or should we just do this on the Lumagen Radiance? Or should it be a combination of both?

Which method would you all use to get the best result? Thanks.

Based on what has been reported here, I would use the Radiance CMS and leave the RS20 CMS controls alone. The Lumagen's controls operate in a predictable fashion and they have sufficient adjustment range to get the job done. For Radiance owners, I don't see that the RS20 CMS would bring anything to the table.

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post #179 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I should preface in this whole thread that EVERY projector is different. I have tested more than 30 RS20's so far and not one is near the same results. So what works for one may not (and probably will not) work for another). Most people know this but just clarifying...

This is good to know and certainly seems born out by what others have reported here. This appears to be a particularly good example of why simply copying someone else's calibration settings is not a very useful approach.

Tom Huffman
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post #180 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 06:42 PM
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I have made a 4th attempt after having found that 1) unfortunately I couldn't use Jeff's settings on my PJ (gamut completely off, especially red, so this confirms what Jason said about settings not necessarily working from one PJ to the other) and 2) my contrast setting was too low after the gamut calibration (I forgot to check afterwards).

So I came back to a 0 contrast setting, and readjusted greyscale and gamut (following the contrast adjustment, green had slided back well into the gamut, and some of the secondaries were off as well, particularly yellow and magenta). The numbers don't necessarily look better, but the picture does because of the contrast correction. dE for cyan is slightly worse (10) because of luminance but its position on x,y is better (almost spot on).

Here are my last settings (50 hours on the lamp):

Iris -15
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Color -8
Tint 0
Low lamp

Gain R=0, G=0, B=-64
Offset R=4, G=0, B=1

CMS Advanced settings (H S B)
Red -3 -19 3
Green -11 -3 30
Blue 18 24 -12
Yellow 3 -5 30
Cyan -3 -30 30
Magenta -3 0 0

A compilation of tips for those about to embark:

1) If you use HCFR and i1, don't start any measurement on a black screen, it freezes or takes ages to start. Start on any non black screen, and go to the first screen when it tells you to. It's mainly a problem when measuring greyscale (if you get to the 0 IRE screen before clicking the greyscale icon). It's not an issue for the gamut as it starts on a red (non black) screen.

1b) set the gamma reference in your unadjusted (or resetted) gamma preset before you start working on the greyscale.

2) Work hard on the high end/low end color temp adjustments (try to get it as close as possible over the whole scale, especially 10-30 IRE, before you move to gamma). The less gamma adjustments you have to make, the happier you'll be. Also copy your gamma settings before any change, as a minor change at one point can throw the whole scale away.

3) Before adjusting gamma, have a look at the biggest bumps and try to get these better instead of going in sequence (10, 20, 30). Look at the greyscale after any change and go back if it gets worse (it will!).

4) When working on the primaries/secondaries, concentrate on green first, as it's (with yellow and cyan) the color that's the most over saturated. Or depending on yor priorities, you can concentrate on cyan, but I never managed to get it completely right so I compromised on this one.

5) First try to find the right setting for color. I did this by setting the brightness for green to 30 (you'll need it anyway), and then try to find the color setting as close as posible to 0 that will bring green within the gamut, then use saturation to push it back. Jeff and l found -8, Jason apparently betwen -22 and -15.

6) For the colors that don't need full brightness to compensate for the lower color setting, find the right setting for brightness (or get closer) before you work on saturation, as they for some reason affect each other. On my settings (-8 for color), I am short on brigthness for green, yellow and cyan, so I know I'll need 30 brightness anyway, so I set it to the max and then work on saturation and hue.

Sorry if these tips are obvious to most of you, but I thought it may help rookies like me to save a bit of time!
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