Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Good info everyone. I'll capture some of the highlights in the first two posts of this thread when I get some free time after the holidays.

Quick question, does anyone else notice significant changes to brightness and contrast when RGB input is selected compared to 422 and 444? The RS1 was pretty close across all 3 formats but with there is a big difference with the RGB input with the RS20.

Yes I have found this...RGB is quite off from the defaults vs. 422/444.
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post #182 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffY View Post

Both Manni and I ended up with -8 color.

I tried some more tonight. At -8 I found that I could not fully get the CMS to function (to it's ability that is)....it depended on the projector, but I did not find the same.
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post #183 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your feedback! I have two questions for you:
1) Do you manage to get cyan spot on (dE < 3) with just the CMS
2) With a color control as low as -15 / -22, how close are you regarding luminance? dE < 10 for all colors, or worse?

Thanks for your help

Most the secondaries I found I could get pretty darn close without any color adjustments...it was the red/green that were the problems and thus needed the color to be dialed down.

I will have to run the calcs for a couple to find the dE on them (when I have some time).
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post #184 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Millerwill, I hope that Jason has been able to get the gamut perfect in the user1 settings, it would be good to get a confirmation it's posible. Please measure and report!

Unfortunately,you won't be able to copy automatically the user1 settings to another user memory, for two reasons:
- there are no global settings copy function (that I could find), you can only copy the gamma setings from a gamma user setting to another (three total).
- you can't copy the advanced settings in the CMS, which is where the gamut is "tweaked".

Of course nothing stops you from copying all the settings manually, and play with a copy of the gamma settings.

I really hope that someone will provide the code to access the service menu. Ideally, you'd want to be able to copy the THX settings (which probably has the closest gamut we could get from the 750, unfortunately with a bit too much green/yellow) and tweak from there, at least to get a better greyscale.


Not perfect...much better than out of the box though as everyone is finding.
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post #185 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Thanks Jeff. Did you use a test pattern for setting Brightness? With the PS3 I'm getting -6 or -7 for the
Brightness level from some dark patterns (like the AVS Blu-ray test disc). If you put up an all black image and then hit the "Hide" button, does the image change?

Thanks,
Darin

I am finding the same...around -5,-6 or thereabouts.
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post #186 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Yes I have found this...RGB is quite off from the defaults vs. 422/444.

Thanks for the sanity test


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post #187 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I was referring to the RS2 with the -25 statement Jason, don't want to confuse anyone here.

I don't remember where I had set color at on the 750, again it wasn't mine.

Noted. My bad.
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post #188 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 07:33 PM
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No problem. I have to say for those who are reading this thread...these things are all over the board (done about 35 so far). I have to do some more playing with JeffY/Manni's -8 as I couldn't get the CMS to work when it was that low (more like -14ish for most).
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post #189 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I have made a 4th attempt after having found that 1) unfortunately I couldn't use Jeff's settings on my PJ (gamut completely off, especially red, so this confirms what Jason said about settings not necessarily working from one PJ to the other) and 2) my contrast setting was too low after the gamut calibration (I forgot to check afterwards).

So I came back to a 0 contrast setting, and readjusted greyscale and gamut (following the contrast adjustment, green had slided back well into the gamut, and some of the secondaries were off as well, particularly yellow and magenta). The numbers don't necessarily look better, but the picture does because of the contrast correction. dE for cyan is slightly worse (10) because of luminance but its position on x,y is better (almost spot on).

Here are my last settings (50 hours on the lamp):

Iris -15
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
Color -8
Tint 0
Low lamp

Gain R=0, G=0, B=-64
Offset R=4, G=0, B=1

CMS Advanced settings (H S B)
Red -3 -19 3
Green -11 -3 30
Blue 18 24 -12
Yellow 3 -5 30
Cyan -3 -30 30
Magenta -3 0 0

A compilation of tips for those about to embark:

1) If you use HCFR and i1, don't start any measurement on a black screen, it freezes or takes ages to start. Start on any non black screen, and go to the first screen when it tells you to. It's mainly a problem when measuring greyscale (if you get to the 0 IRE screen before clicking the greyscale icon). It's not an issue for the gamut as it starts on a red (non black) screen.

1b) set the gamma reference in your unadjusted (or resetted) gamma preset before you start working on the greyscale.

2) Work hard on the high end/low end color temp adjustments (try to get it as close as possible over the whole scale, especially 10-30 IRE, before you move to gamma). The less gamma adjustments you have to make, the happier you'll be. Also copy your gamma settings before any change, as a minor change at one point can throw the whole scale away.

3) Before adjusting gamma, have a look at the biggest bumps and try to get these better instead of going in sequence (10, 20, 30). Look at the greyscale after any change and go back if it gets worse (it will!).

4) When working on the primaries/secondaries, concentrate on green first, as it's (with yellow and cyan) the color that's the most over saturated. Or depending on yor priorities, you can concentrate on cyan, but I never managed to get it completely right so I compromised on this one.

5) First try to find the right setting for color. I did this by setting the brightness for green to 30 (you'll need it anyway), and then try to find the color setting as close as posible to 0 that will bring green within the gamut, then use saturation to push it back. Jeff and l found -8, Jason apparently betwen -22 and -15.

6) For the colors that don't need full brightness to compensate for the lower color setting, find the right setting for brightness (or get closer) before you work on saturation, as they for some reason affect each other. On my settings (-8 for color), I am short on brigthness for green, yellow and cyan, so I know I'll need 30 brightness anyway, so I set it to the max and then work on saturation and hue.

Sorry if these tips are obvious to most of you, but I thought it may help rookies like me to save a bit of time!

Hi,

nice gamut, very nice

Two questions :

the "white point" is really the D65 on your gamut or it's a problem with the "file" ?

And (IMHO) the most important, as you use the ColorHCFR, could you try to measure the primary and secondary color, not only at 100 %, but also at 75 %, 50 % and 25 %. If I have a good memory, the colorHCRF can compare the good reference on those points and the measures. I'm very interested in the result of using CMS under 100 %, and it's possible to realise this with the color HCFR, isn't it ?
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post #190 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I am finding the same...around -5,-6 or thereabouts.

I noticed this too and did a lot of experimenting trying to figure out what was doing on. I think this may be due to the way RS20 implements the "Auto" HDMI type detection. As a quick test, instead of changing the brightness if you try changing the HDMI type on the RS20 to Standard or Extended does one of those settings then yield proper black with brightness still set to 0? I did in my case. I think this also applies to what Mark Petersen is reporting above.
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post #191 of 1782 Old 12-22-2008, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Sorry if these tips are obvious to most of you, but I thought it may help rookies like me to save a bit of time!

x y Y CIE94 L S H
R 0.6410 0.3320 0.2139 0.7 0.2% -0.3% 0.5%
G 0.3000 0.5990 0.6661 2.5 -2.8% -0.2% 0.0%
B 0.1500 0.0670 0.0785 2.3 4.2% -4.4% -1.7%
Y 0.4190 0.5040 0.8710 2.4 -2.4% -0.5% -0.3%
C 0.2220 0.3340 0.6138 8.6 -9.4% 4.2% -4.6%
M 0.3240 0.1580 0.2913 0.8 1.0% -2.2% 1.7%

You've got red and magenta nailed, but you're still having problems with green, blue, yellow, and especially cyan.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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post #192 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I am finding the same...around -5,-6 or thereabouts.

Not that I'm using a PS3 anymore but I find it very strange that the blacks are so elevated that you have to set brightness to around -5,-6. Something wrong is going on.
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post #193 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I tried some more tonight. At -8 I found that I could not fully get the CMS to function (to it's ability that is)....it depended on the projector, but I did not find the same.

Thanks Jason, I'll try again with your range as soon as I get a chance, but it would be great if you could report on the luminance results you get with -15 / -22, especially for green, yellow and cyan, because when I last tried I could get a reasonably good looking gamut (it would bring the colors in the reach of the saturation/hue) but the luminance was all over the place. Although to be honest I knew even less what I was doing at the time, so it's definitely worth a try!
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post #194 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

nice gamut, very nice

Two questions :

the "white point" is really the D65 on your gamut or it's a problem with the "file" ?

And (IMHO) the most important, as you use the ColorHCFR, could you try to measure the primary and secondary color, not only at 100 %, but also at 75 %, 50 % and 25 %. If I have a good memory, the colorHCRF can compare the good reference on those points and the measures. I'm very interested in the result of using CMS under 100 %, and it's possible to realise this with the color HCFR, isn't it ?

Thanks Thebes (although as Tom points it out, it looks good in x,y but Y is still quite off especially on green, yellow and cyan.

1) Yes! My white is very slightly off, but the white dot is D65 on my gamut.
2) I'll be hppy to do this but I think I only have 75% patterns on my disks. I''l have a look on the HD basics patterns disc. Also do you have to change a parameter in HCFR when you measure the gamut at less than 100%?
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post #195 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandob View Post

For those who have successfully calibrated the RS20, can you report if the lumens output has been significantly decreased once calibrated?

I checked following your earlier question and found out my contrast setting in my 3rd attempt (-8) was wrong, I had lost about 10% luminance on white once the gamut was corrected (and had forgotten to check my contrast afterwards, another beginner's mistake), which lead me to my 4th attempt. Contrast is now set to 0, and I get just below 12 fL with a -15 iris (just above 12 fL with -14). It looks like brightness affected the gamut as green was back inside when I measured it after having adjusted the contrast.

This is why I'm interested in checking the results of my 4th attempts at other levels than 100% as suggested by Thebes, as my settings may be even more off at these levels.
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post #196 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

x y Y CIE94 L S H
R 0.6410 0.3320 0.2139 0.7 0.2% -0.3% 0.5%
G 0.3000 0.5990 0.6661 2.5 -2.8% -0.2% 0.0%
B 0.1500 0.0670 0.0785 2.3 4.2% -4.4% -1.7%
Y 0.4190 0.5040 0.8710 2.4 -2.4% -0.5% -0.3%
C 0.2220 0.3340 0.6138 8.6 -9.4% 4.2% -4.6%
M 0.3240 0.1580 0.2913 0.8 1.0% -2.2% 1.7%

You've got red and magenta nailed, but you're still having problems with green, blue, yellow, and especially cyan.

Thanks Tom for taking the time to grade me!
I'm afraid I am again limited by my lack of experience/knowledge to make progress. The only tool I have to assess how close/far I am when calibrating is looking at dE in HCFR to assess how wrong luminance is once the colors look "nailed" on the x,y plan. My understanding is that a dE under 10 is ok, and under 3 is pretty good. So when I see blue yielding a dE of 2.2 or so, and when any change provides a higher dE, I stop trying to improve but I'm not depressed about where it stands. IS dE in HCFR useless to interpret how close/far you are? I know that I don't have enough brightness on yellow, green, and cyan to get them perfect, but again, with a dE of around 4.5 for the first two and 10 for the last, it's off but not awful.
For example you say x for blue is off by 4.2% (if I understand your results well), but from your own data x for blue should be 0.150, so I'm a bit confused. Are you using the value for rec709? Or did I get something completely wrong from your tutorial?
If I look at the gamut I get in the THX mode, dE goes from 2.9 for green to 20 (!) for cyan, so the measures of my settings are better than the THX gamut, and combined to the almost perfect greyscale I get against the very off greyscale of the THX preset (dE of 10 or more on all points against a dE < 3 on mine), it looks better when watching a film too (which is the point)!
So I'm afraid I need a bit more guidance to understand what is so wrong in my results apart from a small lack of brightness in G, Y and C.
I know you must be right, but if we say we're no looking for perfection but for something better than any of the out of the box presets, I lack the knowledge to be able to improve my results given the tools I'm using (including my brain). Please help a bit more!
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post #197 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks Thebes (although as Tm points it out, it looks good in x,y but Y is still quite off especially on green, yellow and cyan.

1) Yes! My white is very slightly off, but the white dot is D65 on my gamut.
2) I'll be hppy to do this but I think I only have 75% patterns on my disks. I''l have a look on the HD basics patterns disc. Also do you have to change a parameter in HCFR when you measure the gamut at less than 100%?

Hi,

sorry, I thought there are these patterns on HD Basics, but it must be a mistake.

If you want something like this, (but in low definition) maybe can you load the pattern for test' DVD on HCFR web site.

For the parameter on gamut, it's not useful to change the parameter, but only selected the measure on five point (if I have a good memory) on RGB and CMY. Maybe, on general setup they are an indication about the exact reference for 75%, 50 % and 25 %, but I don't remember where exactly.

If there are no reference, the comparaison between 75 %, 50 %,... must be interesting before and after using CMS, for seing what is exactly different on these points and not only at 100 %, no ?
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post #198 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I noticed this too and did a lot of experimenting trying to figure out what was doing on. I think this may be due to the way RS20 implements the "Auto" HDMI type detection. As a quick test, instead of changing the brightness if you try changing the HDMI type on the RS20 to Standard or Extended does one of those settings then yield proper black with brightness still set to 0? I did in my case. I think this also applies to what Mark Petersen is reporting above.

I think that this is right. The auto setting does not work properly.

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post #199 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 04:40 AM
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I haven't worked with the RS20 color management yet, but why not try for perfect Y first on all colors, then work on bringing in the points to there designated places on the CIE chart?

You will also want 100% color windows for more accurate results.

Tom I have a question for you...

Example: a red 100% window on the AVS HD Calibration Disk in the RGB domain is

Green = 000
Blue = 000
Red = 235

Correct?

and a red 109% window (if one where to be avail) in the RGB domain would be

Green = 000
Blue = 000
Red = 254


is this correct?


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post #200 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I think that this is right. The auto setting does not work properly.

The autosettings does work for me (detects correctly whether it is standard or enhanced signal comming from my BD-50) so it may be a protocol implementation on the source (or on the 750 which fails with some sources) or a cable problem.

Talking of which, which setting do you recommand on the BD player? Enhanced or Standard? I stayed on standard but was wondering. I know I'll have to recalibrate if I change it, but just to know what you guys recommand.

EDIT: on my 750, the brightness is spot on with a 0 setting with the standard parameter on the the BD-50, which is why I left it that way.
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post #201 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Talking of which, which setting do you recommand on the BD player? Enhanced or Standard? I stayed on standard but was wondering. I know I'll have to recalibrate if I change it, but just to know what you guys recommand.

It shouldn't matter if you calibrate properly.

However, if the source is encoded with BTB ot WTW material, and you calibrate so that you can see this stuff, you will be able to see only with the enhanced setting.

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post #202 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

It shouldn't matter if you calibrate properly.

However, if the source is encoded with BTB ot WTW material, and you calibrate so that you can see this stuff, you will be able to see only with the enhanced setting.

Thanks Lawguy. Just to clarify, does it mean that if I calibrate around a standard setting (which I've done for my BR source), if there is btb or wtw material in the source I won't be able to see it? Can this happen with a normal BD movie (if yes could you give me some examples)? It's only my HTPC that sends an enhanced signal, and I thought it was because it does use the whole 0-255 range as its a computer. But if BTB or WTW material can be encoded on standard BD movies, that would mean you have to calibrate in enhanced mode in order to make sure you're not losing information in some cases?
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post #203 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks Lawguy. Just to clarify, does it mean that if I calibrate around a standard setting (which I've done for my BR source), if there is btb or wtw material in the source I won't be able to see it? Can this happen with a normal BD movie (if yes could you give me some examples)? It's only my HTPC that sends an enhanced signal, and I thought it was because it does use the whole 0-255 range as its a computer. But if BTB or WTW material can be encoded on standard BD movies, that would mean you have to calibrate in enhanced mode in order to make sure you're not losing information in some cases?

The standards say that Bluray disks should not display BTB or WTW material. I have heard that sometimes standards are not followed but I know of no particular circumstances.

If you calibrate to display BTB, for instance, you are really raising video black above what it otherwise would be. I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

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post #204 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The standards say that Bluray disks should not display BTB or WTW material. I have heard that sometimes standards are not followed but I know of no particular circumstances.

If you calibrate to display BTB, for instance, you are really raising video black above what it otherwise would be. I don't know why anyone would want to do that.


Thanks for the quick reply Lawguy. I'll stick to standard for my BD player then. I may even try to see in my nVidia drivers if there is an option to switch my HTPC back to standard and not enhanced, so that I can calibrate it on standard when I get there.
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post #205 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The standards say that Bluray disks should not display BTB or WTW material. I have heard that sometimes standards are not followed but I know of no particular circumstances.

If you calibrate to display BTB, for instance, you are really raising video black above what it otherwise would be. I don't know why anyone would want to do that.

There was a big discussion of this over in the Yamaha 663 receiver thread (it clips btb/wtw content on it's HDMI passthrough).

1) Some disks did have messed up black levels where black detail went well below 16. Dirty Dancing was (I believe) an example. These were broken disks, however, and exceptions rather than the rule.

2) The standards support levels going outside of the 16-235 range. There is no restriction on a disk containing those values. However, a properly calibrated display should show anything below 16 as the darkest black, and anything above 235 as the whitest white.

3) PC desktops and the PS3 can put out full 0-255 range. However, when sending out video, they should (?) be putting out 16-235. Ideally, the PC would be adjusted to 16-235 (video levels) at all times, otherwise you would have to switch calibration settings on the projector every time you played video.

Just my recollection from the discussion over there.

Paul Meyer
Bee Cave (Austin), TX


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post #206 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 06:24 AM
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One quick question following my exchange with Lawguy above: say I have calibrated the HDMI1 input on REC709 for my BD-player to play blu-ray material, and want to use the component input to play DVD from the same BD-player but through the component output locked on 480i/576i to make sure the 750 does the upscaling and not my BD-50 (as the Reon is much better). I assume I should calibrate the component input to REC601, is it correct? If I use the patterns available from HCFR on their PAL DVD, will the calibration be accurate for NTSC DVDs as well? Thanks for your help.
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post #207 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmeyer View Post

There was a big discussion of this over in the Yamaha 663 receiver thread (it clips btb/wtw content on it's HDMI passthrough).

1) Some disks did have messed up black levels where black detail went well below 16. Dirty Dancing was (I believe) an example. These were broken disks, however, and exceptions rather than the rule.

2) The standards support levels going outside of the 16-235 range. There is no restriction on a disk containing those values. However, a properly calibrated display should show anything below 16 as the darkest black, and anything above 235 as the whitest white.

3) PC desktops and the PS3 can put out full 0-255 range. However, when sending out video, they should (?) be putting out 16-235. Ideally, the PC would be adjusted to 16-235 (video levels) at all times, otherwise you would have to switch calibration settings on the projector every time you played video.

Just my recollection from the discussion over there.

Thanks for this Paul.
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post #208 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I think that this is right. The auto setting does not work properly.

I confirm.
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post #209 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capitano View Post

I confirm.


Could you please tell us with which source, so we can get an idea which source allows auto-detect to work on the 750 and which doesn't? It definitely works with my Panasonic BD-50 (the 750 detects standard or enhanced and adjusts accordingly). Although it goes through my Denon AVR so that may play a part as well.
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post #210 of 1782 Old 12-23-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

For example you say x for blue is off by 4.2% (if I understand your results well), but from your own data x for blue should be 0.150, so I'm a bit confused. Are you using the value for rec709? Or did I get something completely wrong from your tutorial?

No, the 4.2% figure refers to the % deviation from correct lightness (L, lightness, S, saturation, H, hue).

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So I'm afraid I need a bit more guidance to understand what is so wrong in my results apart from a small lack of brightness in G, Y and C.

Just look at the LSH numbers. They show exactly where the errors lie. I'm using CIE94 for dE analysis, rather than CIELUV, which although fine for grayscale, I find not as accurate for pri/sec color grading.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
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