SONY VPL-VW70. Anyone planning to get one of these. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently picked up the latest issue of Sound & Vision Magazine and inside found a very good review of the new Sony VPL-WV70. The review seemed to rave about the projectors build quality, improved contrast, and much improved Color Management System. The article didn't mention the obvious lack of Motionflow 120Hz with black frame insertion, which only the VW80, that is sold outside of the United States, offers, but everything else about the projector really seemed to impress the reviewer. It's odd that this projector has received almost no attention on AVS, despite the number of owners of the VPL-VW50 and VPL-VW60. I realize the price is significantly more money that the "Black Pearl", but it is not that higher than the JVC RS20, and the JVC RS20 also lacks Motionflow 120Hz with black frame insertion.

I do agree that Sony made a mistake by not offering the same features on the VW80 on the VW70 and selling the VW70 for a higher price, but what if the VW70 performs every bit as good or better than the JVC RS20. Will we have any takers here on AVS that plan to get a VW70, not a VW80.

I would like to hear a review on this model by someone here at AVS. Considering that Alan and Jason are long time fans of SONY is there any chance that Jason or Alan may be providing a hands on review of the Sony VPL-VW70 anytime soon. The VW70 now really seems to interest me, especially after reading the review.
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post #2 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 08:16 PM
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Matts... I currently have the VW80 and HW10. The VW80 offers advantages over the HW10 in a couple of areas other than the Motion Flow/Dark Frame insertion, but the HW10 is still amazingly close in performance.

Keep in mind I have tweaked the HW10 auto iris to be just a little darker than the factory setup, yet still transparent as far as function.

The VW70 would have a tougher time justifying the extra cost over the HW10, unless you need the powered lens functions and the Image Director 3 software.

If you can wait until the spring, I would see if Sony releases a US version of the VW80 or the actual VW80 in the US market.

I would recommend you take a closer look at the HW10 as well as the VW70 and judge for yourself if the extra cabbage for the VW70 might be better spent on some other HT goodies.

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post #3 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bytehoven.

I really like the VW80 features. I have seen a couple reviews on the VV80 that rate it very well. This was the first review I had seen on VW70. I really like the features on VW70, even without Motionflow™ 120Hz and black frame insertion. I have not seen a projector that uses Motionflow™ 120Hz with black frame insertion so I probably have no clue what I am missing. I may check out the HW10 at my local Magnolia store this weekend. I am still waiting for a store in my area to demo the VW70. Maybe early next year I will be able to see the VW80 here in the US.

Either way it was nice to see the VW70 getting some positive remarks.
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post #4 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

I realize the price is significantly more money that the "Black Pearl", but it is not that higher than the JVC RS20,

You might want to double check that assumption. The Sony is sold at MSRP, the JVC is not.

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post #5 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts View Post

I have not seen a projector that uses Motionflow 120Hz with black frame insertion so I probably have no clue what I am missing.

I haven't either. Does Dark Frame Insertion really add the sense of a CRT/Film smooth motion look? Will we have to wait until a technology can turn off the light source 100% like a CRT gun during blanking? CRTs use blanking and there is 100% no light for a small amount of time each frame, therefore no contrast is lost.

So the question is... Is DFI with a lamp on something like the VW80 "good enough?"

BTW, I'm very confused with why Sony would

1) Raise the price of the "next VW60" model
2) Remove features it's capable of

Especially when we're heading towards a "depression" here in the USA!!!!!
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post #6 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 08:59 PM
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I think a lot of people have been buying the VW80 from here in Australia than a VW70 locally!

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post #7 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 09:07 PM
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Mark... There would have been more buyers, but supply ran out. Perhaps 8-10 USA AVS folks were able to get the VW80, and I'm not sure how many EU/AU folks.

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post #8 of 34 Old 12-22-2008, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

You might want to double check that assumption. The Sony is sold at MSRP, the JVC is not.

I'm sorry I should have clarified that the price difference was at MSRP. Since we are only supposed to discuss MSRP on this site, and not street price, I used that as the comparison. I am aware that the RS20 can be had for a good deal less on AVS. However, not everyone who buys the RS20 will get as good of a deal as offered here on AVS.
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post #9 of 34 Old 12-31-2008, 11:43 AM
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A lot of issues have been raised about the RS-20. I thought that it was now appropriate to resurrect the thread I started well back, re the Sony VW-70. It has already been well-stated that Sony has "fixed" the msrp of what???...$7500 or so? and that really hurts it's market competitiveness against others, including the JVC RS-20, whose msrp is a little less, muchless the ability of it to be discounted. Sound and Vision did a relatively brief review, and my take on it was that it was nicely received- color OOTB was off, but relatively easily reigned-in without a lot of angst (reference the RS-20). So folks, is the VW-70 a reasonable competitor to consider compared to RS-20, as we now have had a good look at it, under fire.
Please weigh it !
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post #10 of 34 Old 12-31-2008, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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As Wolvernole mentioned the review can be found here.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...projector.html

I am still trying to find a store in my area that his this projector up for a demo. Hopefully I will be able to find this projector somewhere in my area so I can get a first hand look at what this projector really has to offer.
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post #11 of 34 Old 12-31-2008, 06:03 PM
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Can anyone confirm if the VW70 has the same Shift/Zone panel alignment capability as the VW80?

If there is a VW70 owners manual .pdf file available, it would note the specifics of the panel alignment function.

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post #12 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Can anyone confirm if the VW70 has the same Shift/Zone panel alignment capability as the VW80?

If there is a VW70 owners manual .pdf file available, it would note the specifics of the panel alignment function.

From the US Sony site...

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665533555

"Panel Alignment function

A Panel Alignment function enables pixel alignment to within 1/10th of a pixel, making it possible to shift the entire picture or specific zones to adjust for color gaps and produce a brighter, clearer, and more detailed picture."
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post #13 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 05:58 AM
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Thanks Ken.

So, if we set aside the missing VW80 features for Motion Flow and Dark Frame Insertion, the VW70 may indeed be an excellent alternative to the RS20.

Based on feedback from RS20 owners so far, the current SXRD color decoding is much better right out of the box, such that any tweaks to peg the rec709 gamut can be done with less impact on overall color tracking. I think we all expected the RS20 to provide a 3D CMS solution and it apparently has not.

If you also consider the reports of RS20 convergence problems that go beyond the projectors ability to adjust for errors, the VW70 shift/zone panel alignment function is even more impressive.

I have not seen any RS20 owners post regarding uniformity issues, but again the VW70 has a service menu which can be used to correct any uniformity problems.

If you could hand pick a RS20 for perfect convergence, uniformity and best color decoding, the projector's native contrast advantage is most compelling. However, is the RS20's native contrast performance enough to offset compromises in those other critical image quality areas?

That is the $5.5-6K question.

I have seen the VW80 in action, which gives me a good idea of what a VW70 can do.

I still look forward to seeing a RS20 in action. I regret a local HT chain which carries the JVC line appears to have closed it's doors. I was also hoping Neil would follow thru on his RS20 purchase, but I understand the restocking fee was quite high if he decided not to keep the projector.

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post #14 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

I still look forward to seeing a RS20 in action. I regret a local HT chain which carries the JVC line appears to have closed it's doors. I was also hoping Neil would follow thru on his RS20 purchase, but I understand the restocking fee was quite high if he decided not to keep the projector.

You may want to check out Overture on 202. I was there a couple months ago and they had an older (RS1 or RS2) JVC in one of their rooms.

Tom L.
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post #15 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 06:18 AM
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Overture carries JVC? Thanks. I will give them a call. They have a nice shop.

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post #16 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 07:38 AM
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Sony really dropped the ball with the VW70. The HW10 while good, is not a high end Sony machine. Who would spend 2000.00 over an RS20 for an inferior product? I think this year will be the year of the Epson 6500 and the JVC RS20. Hopefully Sony can compete next year I've supported Sony for over 20 years, and when I was finally looking for an upgrade for my Pearl, they had nothing to offer me. I was thinking of importing a VW80, but the thought of something not working right and having no warranty and having to pay shipping back to Australia, gave me nightmares.

Here's hoping Sony makes up for their VW70 next year with something that will finally challenge JVC.
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post #17 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Sony really dropped the ball with the VW70.

The MSRP on the VW70 is the same as the RS20, $7999. You can already buy the VW70 at a street price equal to the AVS pricing on the RS20. I would also suggest anyone interested in the VW70 should drop Jason message regarding AVS pricing on the VW70.

Inferior? By what standard? Certainly if one is to focus on a single performance criteria to the exclusion of all others, one could proclaim one projector superior. However, when considering a range of performance criteria, the latest Sony SXRD projectors are as compelling as anything from Epson or JVC.

One has only to read the various projector threads to see which brands are having the greatest returns. Returns for convergence errors, shading, glued focus rings, etc. I submit the current SXRD models are not being returned for QC issues like Panasonic, Epson and JVC.

Next year? Ha! Sony has a great product offering now, especially the HW10.

Regarding your warranty willies on buying a VW80. With the purchase of a Mack 1056 warranty for $210, you would have only had (1) year of service risk, after which any service would have been handled in the US for the next 4 years. Given the number of Sony SXRD projector reporting out of the box problems, your chances of needing service in the 1st year were very small.

Congrats on the Espon 6500 purchase. Hope you got one of the good ones.

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post #18 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

If you also consider the reports of RS20 convergence problems that go beyond the projectors ability to adjust for errors, the VW70 shift/zone panel alignment function is even more impressive.

I have not seen any RS20 owners post regarding uniformity issues, but again the VW70 has a service menu which can be used to correct any uniformity problems.

The thing that I keep noticing with convergence errors on the JVC's if present is that it often varies across the panel which makes fixing it everywhere impossible. OOTB convergence on my VW80 was good enough that I don't even bother using the shift/zone alignment.

I can't speak for all VW70/VW80's but one of the first things I checked on my VW80 was uniformity from 0IRE to 100IRE (okay at 0IRE there was a slight hint of corner brightness but it was very slight and there was no tint to it) in 5IRE steps and every screen was visually at least perfect. Lets hope it stays this way with more hours logged.
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post #19 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 04:29 PM
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Ken...

The bright corners on the VW80, as with other SXRD projectors, will fade as the lamp burns in. My HW10 had some very slight bright corners, which faded after about 50 hours of lamp time. The VW80 should exhibit similar behavior.

Of course, you will be losing some max brightness in the bargain, but such is the case with any UHP lamp.

I'm at 120 hours on the HW10, and the uniformity is still perfect.

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post #20 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Inferior? By what standard? Certainly if one is to focus on a single performance criteria to the exclusion of all others, one could proclaim one projector superior. However, when considering a range of performance criteria, the latest Sony SXRD projectors are as compelling as anything from Epson or JVC.

Thanks Bytehoven for those legitimate points. I do not think that anyone has truly talked about the possible "dead elephant in the living room," but you have (deservedly) hinted at it...that is, that there are a LOT of very credible new owners of the JVC RS-20 that seem to be experiencing significant problems with it, and are at various levels of dissatisfaction (not to speak of returns). So I think that the honest question to be asked is "Is the VW-70 a legitimate competition for the RS-20 ?" I know that I preferred (after a lot of OVERALL comparison) the VW-60 over the RS-1 , simply because I want green grass to look like green grass, etc. and that VW-60 was more believable and less frustrating than the RS-1 at the time...fast forward to 2009, and for the LCOS technology, it again seems to be JVC VS. Sony (RS-20 VS. VW-60). For a color enthusiast, does Sony offer the better option? I still do not want a FP in my house to reflect lime green or off-green grass. I do not know what the answer is, but the aforementioned question is posed...RS-20 VS. VW-70 (price aside, as it is NOT that much difference-save that discuss for later).
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post #21 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 08:59 PM
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I did fortunately get one of the "good" 6500s. I must admit that Sony does indeed provide a product that has the least amount of returns and complaints on this fourm. The HW10, is also a solid "mid' level projector. I think Sony dropped the ball in the "high' end segment. How can a projector with 60 000:1 DYNAMIC contrast compete with one the is 50 000:1 STATIC, and still cost more!? HW10 = good job, VW70 = back to the drawing board.
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post #22 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

How can a projector with 60 000:1 DYNAMIC contrast compete with one the is 50 000:1 STATIC, and still cost more!? HW10 = good job, VW70 = back to the drawing board.

The RS20 and VW70 both have the same MSRP of $7999. I will refrain from offering specific street prices for both projectors, but again they can each be found at similar pricing. So the VW70 is NOT more expensive.

There is more to over all image performance than just contrast performance, and the RS20's native contrast performance specs vary wildly, depending on how the projector is set up. But even when considering contrast performance, the very good native contrast of the latest Sony SXRD optical blocks when married to Sony's excellent dynamic iris, competes well in all but a few areas. Would I be able to notice those areas where the RS20 native contrast out performs? Sure, but how much would I be prepared to compromise in other areas for that occasional advantage?

So... all other image quality issues being equal, the RS20 would have the advantage. Unfortunately, all other image quality issues are proving to not be equal, so choosing a winner becomes a matter of preference. Funny, how the more things change, the more they stay the same.

I will return to your premise that Sony is a year late compared to the Epson/Panasonic/JVC product offering. I would humbly suggest based on quality control issues, those other projectors might be a year early. Panny/Epson & JVC customers might have been better served had their respective projector releases been delayed to enhance QC.

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post #23 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:26 PM
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You mean iris contrast vs native contrast? 50k static would be ouch.
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post #24 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Comments please.

You might consider dropping DarinP and Kris Deering a PM to chat about their RS20/VW80 comparison. It would be good back ground for consideration of the VW70, especially if you're like me and you're really not sold on Frame Insertion technology in it's current state.

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post #25 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:35 PM
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You mean iris contrast vs native contrast? 50k static would be ouch.

True. But would your projector setup allow you to achieve the max 50K:1 native contrast? ie... enough light output on minimum iris, close projector position for maximum zoom...

There are many setups where the RS20 native contrast might be dialed back well into the 20K+ range. Then how might the VW70 running at a calibrated 34K-40K:1 on/off contrast compare to the RS20 running $22K:1 native?

The proposition suddenly becomes a little less rosy.

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post #26 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:39 PM
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Byte.....

Have you taken any Lumen output readings on your VW80???

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post #27 of 34 Old 01-01-2009, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Byte.....

Have you taken any Lumen output readings on your VW80???

No, but using a Extech light meter I was able to measure between 8500-10000:1 native contrast and 30K-42K:1 ON/OFF contrast, depending on color temp. I was about 1/3 of the way off minimum zoom.

Some other folks have reported higher native contrast numbers at various zoom positions.

The new VW80 was as bright as my HW10 with 120 hours on the lamp, which you might expect given the 800/1000 lumen rating between the two projectors.

Based on my brief experience, the VW80 looked like it might get a little brighter and offer more contrast with a good calibration, because I noted head room when running the contrast above 90. Especially for the MID/HIGH color temps.

I would expect the VW70 to be very close.

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post #28 of 34 Old 07-13-2009, 03:17 AM
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The best bang for the buck is the SONY, VPL-VW60 (not the 70). The VW70 is just way too high priced, when the VW60 performs just as well at half the price. In addition, SONY 1080p projectors are capable of up to 300" diagonal images, while JVC/Pioneer Elite 1080p projectors are only capable of up to 200" diagonal images, and still cost more than the VW60. Hands down, the SONY, VPL-VW60 with 300" diagonal capability literally blows away the competition at a bargain price!!!

Use the extra money you save with the VW60, and buy a high quality screen from either Stewart, Draper, or Da-Lite. I prefer DA-LITE brand screens due to high quality at a low price.
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post #29 of 34 Old 07-13-2009, 03:46 AM
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Didn't cine4home report not so long ago that the Sony projectors were losing native contrast over time whereas the JVCs were not?
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post #30 of 34 Old 07-13-2009, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhorn Saloon View Post

In addition, SONY 1080p projectors are capable of up to 300" diagonal images, while JVC/Pioneer Elite 1080p projectors are only capable of up to 200" diagonal images, and still cost more than the VW60. Hands down, the SONY, VPL-VW60 with 300" diagonal capability literally blows away the competition at a bargain price!!!

The size specification is completely irrelevant. Neither projector has the horsepower to lit up a 200'' screen let alone a 300''.

The JVCs actually have the upper hand when it comes to size as they are brighter. I think you might be hard pressed to light up a 110'' unity gain screen with the Sony whereas the new JVCs should be capable of at least 120''.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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