Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 04:52 PM
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[quote=jmalto;15417357]The projector showed from AVStore (Thanks Jason!) and everything seemed to survive the transit. Here are some quick pictures I snapped. Initial impressions are out of the box it looks VERY good compared to how my 1080UB did and the sheer size of the unit seems much bigger (possibly the design difference between the two.) It is also definitely a little louder (to me anyways) but nothing drastic. I still have to test the convergence a little better, but overall it looks about the same as my 1080UB did. Luckily I do not have any stuck pixels or a bad focus ring like some are reporting.

Here are some pics I snapped right out of the box. I didn't let the bulb warm up very long (maybe 10 min) and again, this is straight out of the box and the first HD material I could find (Frindge)

I will be testing the Xbox 360 and PS3 out first (games & movies) so if anyone has a specific game they want me to test let me know.



What mount are you using ? is that a TV wall mount ?
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post #272 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 05:01 PM
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Just threw AVIA in before dinner to check the convergence better, and the unit is 2 pixels off on red and 2 pixels off on green on a solid white line. I am not sure what the ""norm" is for this projector yet since it is fairly new. Tad disappointed they did not fix this issue, but we will see how everyone else's units look.
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post #273 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 05:26 PM
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A quick question for 6500UB owners. I watched the Dark Knight today on a 7500UB sourced from a Pioneer Blu Ray player and I found the image on the 7500 to be problematic for my tastes. I am asking owners of the 6500UB for their opinion about the picture quality when watching the Dark Knight. I don't believe that the picture quality can be this poor so I am asking for your opinion as the 6500UB is on my short list of projectors.

I found that if you look closely that you can see digital noise, for lack of a better term. In the scene where Bruce Wayne is sleeping in the boardroom, and many other scenes, the picture appears to have crawlies where you can almost see the pixels moving. This is not screen door effect as you cannot really see the pixels it is just that there appears to be digital noise that appears to be creeping. Also I noticed that in some of the shots of the daylight shots of the cityscape you can see digital noise (moire) on the buildings. Is this normal or is the source (Blu Ray player) causing this?

Someone on the 7500UB owners thread suggested that the noise reduction was perhaps not enabled. I was hoping that some 6500 owners could give their feedback about the picture quality, amount of noise present when watching the Dark Knight? If someone could turn off their noise reduction and tell me what happens it would really help me out.
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post #274 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 05:48 PM
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Are the pixels moving when the unit is on pause? If not then it's something in the source or could be a bad HDMI cable or player. I had a Sony BD player thas was messed to **** once, and it created noise if every scene and basically made it unwatchable. I switched players and the problem was solved. I HIGHLY doubt it's the projector. Someone like Art (projectorreviews, or the guy who owns the TW4000 (6500 equivalent) would have mentioned something. Art is also sensitive to noise as he complains about quite often when he sees it and never mentioned noise once in his 6500 review.
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post #275 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 06:10 PM
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Thanks conan48. I am going to return to that store tomorrow and ask for them to change some of the cables around as the picture from the HD cable box had noise in it also. The pixels looked like they were moving and it looked terrible from up close.
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post #276 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 06:19 PM
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hmm, I just noticed an insanely weird issue using AVIA to check the convergence on several patterns. I had a tough time capturing what it is doing, but I will try to upload them. I am going back and forth if the unit is one pixel off r/g or if it is off 2. Some patterns look like two and others look like one.
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post #277 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 07:20 PM
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Just a thought, make sure you set the overscan to 100% when measuring patterns. I believe the Epson's tend to come with some overscan set. If I were to get a pj with more than one pixel off, I would immediately call Epson to get a replacement. You can try to get a close up picture of the menu since this maps 1:1 and should show if there is a significant convergence issue.
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post #278 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 07:35 PM
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*pics removed by posted*
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post #279 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:01 PM
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I think it is out of focus :-)

And, I can't think anything else until it gets clearer.

What is that? is the Pj out of focus? Is the camera? How good a quality of camera lens are you using?

Really, I am not trying to be a tird....just being honest, I can't tell anything with those pictures. did they come out worse once posted? I can't imagine posting pics because I, for one, am completely naive on how to do this best on the forums (sorry)...
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post #280 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:01 PM
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Yeah, the green definitely looks shifted down and a bit to the right. Did AVS check it for stuck/dead pixels and convergence before shipping? I can't remember, but I thought someone said that was a service they offer.

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post #281 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsntn99 View Post

Just a thought, make sure you set the overscan to 100% when measuring patterns. I believe the Epson's tend to come with some overscan set. If I were to get a pj with more than one pixel off, I would immediately call Epson to get a replacement. You can try to get a close up picture of the menu since this maps 1:1 and should show if there is a significant convergence issue.


could not agree more....you need to change it to 100%.....I think it comes standard at 92%....I don't know why they do that......I guess to give some more flexibility beyond just lens zoom for those who might not have true ratio screens.....but I stick to 1:1 at 100%.....
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post #282 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:05 PM
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I assume you didn't pay for the extra service to have Jason check out the projector before it was shipped to you (since you have already received it and Jason told me last week that with his check out he couldn't ship the projector before today). In any case a mis-alignment of greater than one pixel should be considered unacceptable. I would ask Epson for a replacement.

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post #283 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:09 PM
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regarding the question on noise on Dark Knight....I watched it this past week and never noticed it....in fact, I thought that movie looked awesome on this pj with my Panny BD35 all running through my Marantz SR8001 via HDMI. I am not sure that I "looked" real hard for artificacts like this as I was in the "enjoyment" mode....but I noticed nothing that I recall. Sorry I don't still have the same disc to pop it in and compare those scenes for you. I do think the pj comes in default "1" for noise reduction on just about all modes if I recall correctly. I have not playe with that yet...
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post #284 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:18 PM
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My camera just flat out stinks in the dark, projector was focused. I did not pay for the check service (which I obviously should have) but I will try to snap some better shots and then repost them and go from there. The green pixels are definitely easy to notice.

Going to be a big disappointment if this convergence issue is carrying over from the 1080UB's.
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post #285 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 08:38 PM
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how many feet do you see the convergence problems from? Is it noticable from your regular viewing distance? If not I would wait for Epson to maybe implement a firmware to fix some of the FI issues.
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post #286 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 09:01 PM
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For those that have the 6500, can you post what your menu screen looks like so I can compare convergence? I messed with the lens shift some by positioning my projector more center with my swivel mount and also focused the unit better and a lot of what I was seeing has gone away. It is about 1 pixel off now more blue then anything and is not visible from seating distance like the green was. There is a pinkish-purple color randomly scattered within the lettering of some of the words in the menu, but they are not a silhouette outside the letter like the blue is.

I wonder if these units are more sensitive towards lens shift then the 1080's were?

Overscan was set to 100% by default on my projector.
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post #287 of 4388 Old 12-30-2008, 09:26 PM
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Let it run a couple of days and check it again...when I first set mine up I could have sworn I was one pixel off and noticeable from a couple of feet in.....but, I wanted to calibrate my expectations and I visited an RS-1 owner's home and a guy with an AE3000 and in the end, decided I did not have a relevant convergence issue. But, I could have sworn that it improved in the 20-30 hour of viewing from the first 5......but, I bet it was just me being overly senstiive rather than physical issue like "burn in" etc.
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post #288 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

This is the "official Epson thread"
Do not want this turning into a Panny verses Epson thread

Rgr that, but as an admin I'm sure you are ready for Panny owners(or ones that have ordered one) coming in here to dispute the claims of Epson's superiority in brightness and sharpness made by reviewers. Bound to happen though...people are funny that way in defending their purchase.

I can't wait to get my Epson! Even if it takes a couple FW updates to get the IP issues sorted out it'll be well worth it.
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post #289 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 02:15 AM
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Have any of you guys watched SD movies, I'm hoping with the Reon + pixelworks that they look real nice. Also have you tried the FI mode with SD to see how well it works?
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post #290 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 04:00 AM
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James - I have not, but I will today. I was more concerned with the convergence issue last night that I did not get much testing in outside that. I will be giving the 360 and PS3 a run through tonight. I did watch some of the Dark Knight and with 4:4 off and FI set on Normal there was a massive amount of jerkiness which has been reported.
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post #291 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

James - I have not, but I will today. I was more concerned with the convergence issue last night that I did not get much testing in outside that. I will be giving the 360 and PS3 a run through tonight. I did watch some of the Dark Knight and with 4:4 off and FI set on Normal there was a massive amount of jerkiness which has been reported.

How did Dark Knight work for you with 24p and 4:4 enabled, but no FI?
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post #292 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 07:17 AM
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More FI feedback for Epson product management or engineers...though, they likely already know this. So last night I was watching the Holiday Bowl with different modes of FI enabled (Low, Normal, High)....and trying to study to see if I really saw a benefit vs. a LCD side by side for game action. I have still yet to see much benefit here for sports (my poor eyes I guess....or that I am not comparing it to a 120 Hz fpd next to it), but I did notice some very slight benefit in the ESPN ticker scroll at the bottom (the benefit was about the same in all modes). I also did not experience any "jerkiness or stuttering".

However, later I tried again in the post game sportscenter with Mark Schlereth analyzing the firing of Mike Shanahan. Here, I experienced extreme jerkiness of the scrolling ticker and it did not matter which mode I was in .......though, Normal and High did appear to be worse. But, even Low was so noticeable and bad / distracting (kind of like enabling 4-4 on non 24p sources....almost that bad) So, all modes were so bad that I then kept replaying the same clips through the dvr and toggled between them, etc. and then removed them completely. What I saw is rather intuitive. The jerkiness is caused when the algorithm(s) choke on an already existent imperfection (dropped frame(s) or something in the encode / decode of the source content 1080i from Dish HD-DVR...whether live or off disc...of course, everything a HD DVR shows passes through cache). This is to say, I could see with no FI engaged a slight momentary jerk in the original source stream (now this could be something in there that causes even the normal processor in the pj to jump). However, whereas with no FI engaged the jump would occur and settle out so quickly in an episodic manner so that most often viewers would never notice it unless looking for it, when you have FI enabled it is like the jerk or miscue in the original source caused it to get off track and begin a complete ratcheting experience for a long time thereafter....very long.

FWIW it appeared to be that this segment of sportscenter was clearly less sharp then other ESPN content I had viewed that night. It could the that the bit rate was reduced (or high compression used) for the talking head studio type show and that this was part of the cause.

Needless to say, I think I have now viewed my last content type to conclude when and how I will use FI, and will not set it and forget it...or at least until any possible future firmware upgrade is released. Now I will enjoy the pj for what it is......which is everything I had expected it to be and what I really purchased it for...

Bottom line for me:

Blu-Ray with 24p source, I will enable 4-4 and no other FI (nor should one be able to do the latter)

Normal broadcast content in 1080i off Dish Network I will disable creative FI and 4-4

Some very high quality source content with slow moving, highly detailed landscapes and imagery / video (kind of like what you see on CES display booth presentations or when they release all the new TVs and show landscapes or the like)....or, in my case, my new Planet Earth Blu-ray BBC edition in 1080p....so for these, there is a definite benefit to using creative FI (and I think "Low" is good enough)....

In the last case, I have not experienced the jerkiness....though, clearly I have not watched more than a short segment of specific footage and done a lot of side-by-side with that. But, the benefit was clear in that case for sure....

Those are essentially my 3 primary use cases, and the last one is very infrequent. I don't hardly ever watch SDTV any longer, esp through a PJ, and even if I did, I can't imagine why I would even think if creative FI or 4-4.....any value for mucking around there in settings is probably to balance sharpness and noise.
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post #293 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 07:55 AM
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I'll be getting the 6500 on Friday and can directly compare it to the 6100 and a Sanyo Z700 (even though the 700 is not in the same class).
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post #294 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedelite View Post

More FI feedback for Epson product management or engineers...though, they likely already know this. So last night I was watching the Holiday Bowl with different modes of FI enabled (Low, Normal, High)....and trying to study to see if I really saw a benefit vs. a LCD side by side for game action. I have still yet to see much benefit here for sports (my poor eyes I guess....or that I am not comparing it to a 120 Hz fpd next to it), but I did notice some very slight benefit in the ESPN ticker scroll at the bottom (the benefit was about the same in all modes). I also did not experience any "jerkiness or stuttering".

However, later I tried again in the post game sportscenter with Mark Schlereth analyzing the firing of Mike Shanahan. Here, I experienced extreme jerkiness of the scrolling ticker and it did not matter which mode I was in .......though, Normal and High did appear to be worse. But, even Low was so noticeable and bad / distracting (kind of like enabling 4-4 on non 24p sources....almost that bad) So, all modes were so bad that I then kept replaying the same clips through the dvr and toggled between them, etc. and then removed them completely. What I saw is rather intuitive. The jerkiness is caused when the algorithm(s) choke on an already existent imperfection (dropped frame(s) or something in the encode / decode of the source content 1080i from Dish HD-DVR...whether live or off disc...of course, everything a HD DVR shows passes through cache). This is to say, I could see with no FI engaged a slight momentary jerk in the original source stream (now this could be something in there that causes even the normal processor in the pj to jump). However, whereas with no FI engaged the jump would occur and settle out so quickly in an episodic manner so that most often viewers would never notice it unless looking for it, when you have FI enabled it is like the jerk or miscue in the original source caused it to get off track and begin a complete ratcheting experience for a long time thereafter....very long.

FWIW it appeared to be that this segment of sportscenter was clearly less sharp then other ESPN content I had viewed that night. It could the that the bit rate was reduced (or high compression used) for the talking head studio type show and that this was part of the cause.

Needless to say, I think I have now viewed my last content type to conclude when and how I will use FI, and will not set it and forget it...or at least until any possible future firmware upgrade is released. Now I will enjoy the pj for what it is......which is everything I had expected it to be and what I really purchased it for...

Bottom line for me:

Blu-Ray with 24p source, I will enable 4-4 and no other FI (nor should one be able to do the latter)

Normal broadcast content in 1080i off Dish Network I will disable creative FI and 4-4

Some very high quality source content with slow moving, highly detailed landscapes and imagery / video (kind of like what you see on CES display booth presentations or when they release all the new TVs and show landscapes or the like)....or, in my case, my new Planet Earth Blu-ray BBC edition in 1080p....so for these, there is a definite benefit to using creative FI (and I think "Low" is good enough)....

In the last case, I have not experienced the jerkiness....though, clearly I have not watched more than a short segment of specific footage and done a lot of side-by-side with that. But, the benefit was clear in that case for sure....

Those are essentially my 3 primary use cases, and the last one is very infrequent. I don't hardly ever watch SDTV any longer, esp through a PJ, and even if I did, I can't imagine why I would even think if creative FI or 4-4.....any value for mucking around there in settings is probably to balance sharpness and noise.

Have you experimented with HD sports action, like football or hockey, regarding the 120hz FineFrame?
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post #295 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:14 AM
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Make sure to let the projector warm up a little before checking your convergence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

hmm, I just noticed an insanely weird issue using AVIA to check the convergence on several patterns. I had a tough time capturing what it is doing, but I will try to upload them. I am going back and forth if the unit is one pixel off r/g or if it is off 2. Some patterns look like two and others look like one.

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post #296 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:23 AM
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Is it me, or is there an aweful lot of fuss going on about the different frame interpolation issues? I could honestly care less about these "features", and would rather watch a 24p signal without any "enhancements", and 60hz material at 60 hz. I would just turn all the FI stuff off.

I have the 1080UB, and the only performance criterial I would look at to upgrade to the 6500UB are the basics. Black level, brightness, gamma control, color accuracy, and sharpness. Of course, I'm already extremely happy with the 1080UB, so those of you with the 6500UB, enjoy. It sounds like an amazing machine.

Dan
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post #297 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:25 AM
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wow....I thought the ability for a blue ray player to feed true 24p and a display to accept 24p was supposed to be the end of all this; aka-'just like a real/reel projector is at the movies!!'
now we have all this frame creation stuff.

I get my 6500UB on friday, and I'm very excited. I haven't even considered 4:4, FI, etc. I personally don't care about those particular features. It may be fun to play with, but I have never had a problem with any source (movies, games, shows) that I can remember.

I wish there was more info about accuracy of colors, how great the black level is, etc.

Maybe everything else about this projector is SO GOOD, that it's short comings in the 120hz tech. department is all that there is to complain about


haha.....just as i posted this i saw the above post.....i think he's pretty much saying the same thing
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post #298 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

haha.....just as i posted this i saw the above post.....i think he's pretty much saying the same thing

I just saw that too. Yes, I fully agree with you!

Dan
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post #299 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 08:57 AM
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Has anyone else used Art's settings for TheaterBlack 1? In one part he says to use Saturation of -3 and then in the RGB section he says to use -8. I am curious if the -8 was the final end result and -3 was the initial tweaking result?

Link to calibration settings: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...alibration.php
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post #300 of 4388 Old 12-31-2008, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Jamalto, Why not email Art and ask him.
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