Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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HDMI handshaking has nothing to do with the switch from one resolution to another. It is the time it takes to like to another component such as a Blu-Ray disk player or other HDMI HDCP device such as a cable box.
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post #452 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

HDMI handshaking has nothing to do with the switch from one resolution to another. It is the time it takes to like to another component such as a Blu-Ray disk player or other HDMI HDCP device such as a cable box.

I didn't think same source different resolutions would fall under "handshaking". Still the issue sounds like the changes from 720p to 1080i and back, if all that is happening is channel changes on the tuner.
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post #453 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 03:01 PM
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Art put up the comparison section on the 6500 review:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...ompetitors.php
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post #454 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

HDMI handshaking has nothing to do with the switch from one resolution to another. It is the time it takes to like to another component such as a Blu-Ray disk player or other HDMI HDCP device such as a cable box.

Right, in essence your projection device has to recognize (in effect, "handshake") the new source and HDCP code transmitted through the HDMI.
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post #455 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch2099 View Post

there's definitely a difference, high mode creates the smoothest motion and creates the greatest hyper realistic effect, low mode is choppier, and gives movement the appearance of being sped up. i actually think the high mode is awesome for video games and i would actually be interested in watching some material with it on, but unfortunately it's just a terrible implimentation of frame interpolation with all of the wavy artifacts and such. and i saw zero difference in artifacting whether my ps3 is set to 24 on or off.

What wavy artifacts are you seeing? I am very excited about this feature and hope I can get it to work, at least with my SD movies, since I rent alot of them each week.

How has FI improved the gaming experience. at 60 frames the games seem pretty smooth already, does it add more depth and give even smoother gameplay?
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post #456 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 04:12 PM
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Could people that have ordered this projector in Canada PM me and let me know who's selling it in Canada? I've only been able to find 2 places so far. I'm trying to decide to buy it here, or buy it online in the states and get it shipped to my parents who are in the US for a month and have them bring it back. How quick is the US $200 mail in rebate? Somehow I doubt one could get the check in a month if it's like most MIRs.
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post #457 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sketch2099
there's definitely a difference, high mode creates the smoothest motion and creates the greatest hyper realistic effect, low mode is choppier, and gives movement the appearance of being sped up. i actually think the high mode is awesome for video games and i would actually be interested in watching some material with it on, but unfortunately it's just a terrible implimentation of frame interpolation with all of the wavy artifacts and such. and i saw zero difference in artifacting whether my ps3 is set to 24 on or off.

What wavy artifacts are you seeing? I am very excited about this feature and hope I can get it to work, at least with my SD movies, since I rent alot of them each week.

How has FI improved the gaming experience. at 60 frames the games seem pretty smooth already, does it add more depth and give even smoother gameplay?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm also most interested in the processing of 60 frames std. DVD playback. The 6500 was supposed to strip the 3:2 output from std. DVD player back to 24FPS, then process it up to 4:4 at 96Hz (or 5:5 at 120Hz) . This in and of itself would be great for playback of std DVDs for those of us without a player with 24P output generating smoother image by elimintating 3:2 (even without additional FI). For me it would elimintate the need to have (buy) a player with 24P output, but if all that the PJ does is botch the process by adding artifacts, then I may wait for the next generation before upgrading.
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post #458 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

What wavy artifacts are you seeing? I am very excited about this feature and hope I can get it to work, at least with my SD movies, since I rent alot of them each week.

How has FI improved the gaming experience. at 60 frames the games seem pretty smooth already, does it add more depth and give even smoother gameplay?


art explained some of these wavy artifacts in his blogs, but basically it happens whenever there is too much motion for the frame interpratation to keep up with. one example is a scene in spider man 3 where peter parker is about to dress up as spider-man and accept the key to the city, there is a scene where the camera is panning around his face and there's a lot of activity in the background. what happens is an extremely distracting wavyness appears around the outline of his head (which is essentially stationary as the camera swings around it) if you keep watching this scene until the sandman appears in the next scene, the cameraman is using a handheld camera in an action scene, and it's basically completely unwatchable because of all the artifacting. the best way i can describe it is that everything turns in to a crazy mess of swirling puzzle pieces of color.

as for games, it's worked pretty great on little big planet, a little halo 3, and some wipeout hd. it adds a really unusual fluidity to these games (increased depth and smoothness will probably not look like you think it will), and i imagine a lot of people might not like it. i'm getting used to it, but i feel like i'm just waiting for some part of a game to come along that will be too much for the frame interpolation to handle and it'll artifact like crazy again.

i love this projector, but i'm going to call epson this week to complain that the frame interpolation simply does not work. i wouldn't recommend this projector if you're looking to get a working frame interpolation feature (if don't care about that feature then i would say that this is best pj under 3k)
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post #459 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchwalker View Post

By handshaking, do you mean the time it takes to switch over to another resolution/format? If so, does the Series 3 have the option to output "native/source" format or a fixed format? I'd try the latter. The DTV HD boxes have the ability to output a fixed resolution regardless of the channel format.

Thanks a lot. I changed the resolution output setting to 1080i fixed and now it changes channels just as fast as my old AE1000. I love the picture on this projector.


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post #460 of 4388 Old 01-04-2009, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

JVC HD750 looks identical image smoothness wise to Epson with 4:4 enabled.

What would about hd350, same story?
RS10/hd350 is starting to look more and more attractive to me to buy in spring. Is there any chance the price will go down a bit by then?
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post #461 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 03:55 AM - Thread Starter
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This thread is for owners or possible owners of the Epson 6500UB. Please discuss other units in their specific thread.
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post #462 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 05:49 AM
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It's interesting to read all these posts about 3D like images being produced by the Epson 6500. Im kind of curious on what will happen if you watch a movie like Journey to the Center of the Earth in 3D with 4:4 enabled. Has anyone tested this movie with the 6500?

Im currently waiting on my 6500 which still hasn't shipped from another reseller.

Thanks
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post #463 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow1234 View Post

It's interesting to read all these posts about 3D like images being produced by the Epson 6500. Im kind of curious on what will happen if you watch a movie like Journey to the Center of the Earth in 3D with 4:4 enabled. Has anyone tested this movie with the 6500?

I can't imagine what difference, other than scene composition, there would be in a movie shot in 3D but projected in 2D and a movie shot and projected in 2D. Am I missing something--is that a marble rolling across the floor?

blu-ray Operas: 6
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post #464 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

I have about roughly a 15-16" throw (i can move the projector to the edge of my mounting shelf which helps some) and am projecting onto a 120" Elite Silverframe with white matte material . . .

Seems like a bit of a short throw to me, but I'm sure your brightness is AMAZING!





I am reminded from a great scene in Spinal Tap involving Stonehenge...
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post #465 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlo View Post


What kind of ceiling mount are you guys using or planning on using for the 6500UB ?

Thanks.


I just had Jason suggest one when I paid for my PJ, I think I'm getting a Chief Universal. I've had good experiences with other Chief products, so I'm sure it will be fine...
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post #466 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewartg View Post

I just had Jason suggest one when I paid for my PJ, I think I'm getting a Chief Universal. I've had good experiences with other Chief products, so I'm sure it will be fine...


I went with the Chief mount from Jason. I think the number is RPA-U. If you have a sloped ceiling you will need that adaptor and they sell extensions in adjustable lengths. I went with the 9"-12" one or you can make you own out of 1 1/2" pipe. I am waiting for my projector to be QC'ed and then shipped so it may be a little while before I can report on how I like this mount.
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post #467 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 08:28 AM
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I have that Chief RPA-U mount and will be receiving my 6500UB this evening (assuming someone's home to sign for it if they get there before I do); I expect it to fit well. I'll try to post my experience with it when I get a chance.

It should be a relatively painless process. It's an easy mount to take a projector down from, change it out, and put it back up.
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post #468 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 08:32 AM
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I walked my 3 year old Beagle around the block early this morning.
when I got home FedEx left an attempted delivery tag from AVS
on my door.
Next delivery attempt is tomorrow.
My dog will have to wear diapers cause I'm not leaving the house tomorrow
morning
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post #469 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 08:53 AM
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Welp....my 6500 is sitting at my house waiting for me. My wife worked from home today to sign for it so it's going to be a tough 4 1/2 hours for me waiting to check this baby out!
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post #470 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clevername View Post

It should be a relatively painless process. It's an easy mount to take a projector down from, change it out, and put it back up.

The existing mouting for my old projector is to let the lens position in the center to the screen. With the new Epson 6500UB which the lens is positioned on the side, I need to repostion the top ceiling mount plate to faciltate this change. I wish it was just a painless process by just replacing the projector mount and get a new mount on and leaving the ceiling plate untouched.. Not this case !
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post #471 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 10:04 AM
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Shouldn't the lens shift be able to compensate for this rather minor discrepancy?
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post #472 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 10:56 AM
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I went through that last time going from a centered lens Mits to the side lens'd Infocus. Thankfully the Epson is basically the same as the Infocus, so I don't have to move.

I wish we'd get a standard on that in the projector world.

I would imagine the Epson's lens shift would do the trick, though. I'd at least try that before ripping the mount out and drilling new holes.
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post #473 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 11:21 AM
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Ok so I still haven't pulled the trigger on this one. I almost did a couple times but I watch a TON of HDTV and sports and was really looking forward to having the FI features working well.

What's the feeling about how Epson will deal with this major problem. Let's be honest here and admit that the technology has some major(perhaps fatal) flaws and is basically unusable in most cases. Will Epson fix this problem with FW upgrades? Some competition seems to have gotten the FI much more "right" the first time around. FI is usable and works without problems on a competitor while the Epson's FI is almost hoplessly problematic with this FW version.

If I knew that Epson was going to "fix" these issues I would just go ahead and buy the projector and not use the FI features, appreciating the picture of the projector without them until further notice. But if they dont' do anything about it and it is what it is, I don't see a reason to spend so much more on this PJ than other options that may have less black but are still very solid projectors at a much lower pricepoint.(w5000) comes to mind.

What is Epson going to do with this frame-interpolation issue. It seems like they didn't even bother testing it out before shipping them. They were under the gun to get them shipped by christmas and to do it they had to ship out a product that just wasn't working correctly.

I WANT to buy this PJ...I really do. I'm just wondering if I should wait another year on my HC1500(just got a new lamp) for them to get all this stuff ironed out.

Let me ask you this, without 4:4 and FI, is there any motion-blur on sports? Is it a PJ that needs FI tech to display fast moving action well? DLP does better without the FI but if Epson is going to get it working correctly I would have no worries about it.
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post #474 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 11:21 AM
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Haven't been able to get my hands on a 6500UB yet. So if anyone located in the greater Seattle area has one that I could check out some time, please send me a PM. I could bring over an AE3000 and we can compare. Thanks.

Edit: I share your frustration and concern, Snausy. Hopefully Epson will step up to the plate and resolve most of the quirks and annoyances (namely the FI and slow HDMI handshake) via firmware. It's going to painful to wait, though!

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post #475 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

I have about roughly a 15-16" throw (i can move the projector to the edge of my mounting shelf which helps some) and am projecting onto a 120" Elite Silverframe with white matte material, a 1.1 gain screen, and the projector is in a dedicated room with the one window covered with blackout material (very little light in this room.)

In low bulb mode the picture is very, very dark using any of the theater black modes. I PREFER this mode because I was accustomed to using it when I had my projector floor-level and had a much smaller throw and it produces the best black levels for movies (IMO.) In high bulb mode it helps but if you compare my LCD Sony TV to the Projector on the same content, you can easily tell the LCD TV is brighter by about 30% and it is 100% calibrated for correct brightness/contrast level.

Hope this helps Panny. If you are overly concerned I suggest getting a minimum of 1.5 gain if you have the same throw distance. I am going to replace my screen with Da-Lite HP material eventually and I think it will solve the problem I am having. I built platforms for my home theater chairs so I had no other option but to mount it on the back wall or I would of left it floor-level.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stewartg View Post

Seems like a bit of a short throw to me, but I'm sure your brightness is AMAZING!





I am reminded from a great scene in Spinal Tap involving Stonehenge...

Actually with a 120" screen the 6500 can be mounted as close as approx. 11 ft. from the screen and the closer to the screen the brighter the image (since the lens F-stop changes as you zoom). Actually with the Elite Matte while surface (gain 1.1) I would go closer than the suggested 15 to 16 ft. since using the 6500UB in the best mode (theater black) may produce a rather dim image with this size and gain of screen. I would certainly use high lamp mode for that size screen.

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post #476 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snausy View Post

Ok so I still haven't pulled the trigger on this one.

Will Epson fix this problem with FW upgrades? Some competition seems to have gotten the FI much more "right" the first time around. FI is usable and works without problems on a competitor while the Epson's FI is almost hoplessly problematic with this FW version.

If I knew that Epson was going to "fix" these issues I would just go ahead and buy the projector and not use the FI features, appreciating the picture of the projector without them until further notice.

What is Epson going to do with this frame-interpolation issue. (?)

I WANT to buy this PJ...I really do.

I'm in the exact same boat Snausy. Except I'm looking at both the panny ae3000 and the sony hw10 as alternatives.

My gut feeling is that there will be no firmware update. It seems their flagship "pro" 7500ub has the same problems so perhaps they will focus on an update for that model that will 'trickle' down to the 6500ub. But again my gut feeling is that they will wait until next year with a new model to address this problem.

It almost seems as though they expected too much of the video processors they used on the 6500ub/7500ub. As we all know the mfg's that seem to have got it right the first time have experience making traditional TV sets and have the upper-hand in the development of such features. (Doesn't the ae3000u use a proprietary panasonic chipset for processing?)

& Maybe I'm just seeing the glass half-empty. ?? Anybody else have some insight?
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post #477 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 12:09 PM
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I would have to agree with JohnRockets. While I would be delighted if Epson were to improve the FI, I don't think it would be wise to count on it happening. I am over the lamp time limit with mine, so no chance to return it. The only way I see a firmware update coming is if there is a lot of feedback from the first wave of buyers. Art Feierman may also be of some help, as he has raised the issue and will follow up on it. Perhaps they will also improve the HDMI handshaking while they are at it.

If FI is a deal breaker for you, definitely look at the competition or wait to see if there is a fix.


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post #478 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 12:39 PM
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In the Menu under Info, has anyone ever seen data in the Deep Color and Status items? Are there any Deep Color sources out there yet?


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post #479 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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At the risk of offending some I believe that FI is not as big a deal as some believe. I feel it is changing the film-like look and that is not what the directors want. A few months ago there was a big debate when the Blu-Ray version of Patton was released. Many though that the film was ruined and looked quite different from the original. Yes we may say wow when FI is first turned on but most soon realize that the picture looks somewhat fake. I compare this to the vivid setting that most big box stores use to sell flat screen sets. It is also true that there are difference in FI among the manufactures.
Even with these differences, I feel that the picture is changed and often not for the better. I expect that most users will only use this feature on a few sources other than film. The key for me with any projector is the ability to produce great blacks, good sharpness, and shadow detail.
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post #480 of 4388 Old 01-05-2009, 01:23 PM
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I called Epson today and stated that my frame interpolation feature is broken. Their response was that they were looking into the issue - that's it. They couldn't tell me what they might do to fix it or any time frame. So I'm asking all you 6500/7500 owners out there - please call Epson and put in a complaint! We were a strong enough force to get the AVS member rebate and we can pressure these guys to fix this issue. This feature is simply broken and we shouldn't just accept it when it makes the picture unwatchable (regarding wavy artifacts and random jerkiness, not the hyper realism).

Thanks.
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