Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cyniclaus View Post

Your review/comments were centered on movies...So what's the verdict on Opera in HD? I've been debating upgrading my collection to bluray. Also, the genre seems an ideal candidate for FI; how much difference does it make? Is it more like "being there" with it on?

Thanks for asking, I hope my coming posts will be of use to you. My first interactions with the 6500 were focused on an informal examination of its limits and problems. Further I've only watched Zoroastre twice and while focusing on the artistic dimensions of performance as captured in the recording/videography. I'm going to post my impressions of that disk as art in another forum tomorrow. Next weekend I expect to post here regarding ballet on the 6500 which as a generalization of my impressions should suffice for opera on HD as well.

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #632 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Randomcreek View Post

I too am leaning toward the 6500 based on the fact that it seems to be brighter, sharper and have better (lower) black level. But after that (and I have to agree those three things come first) it seems the Panny may be a more refined package- film like image, detail clarity enhancement (2nd generation), motorized zoom/focus, automatic aspect ratio adjustment and first generation frame interpolation that works. I think there are clear pros and cons to each of these and I'm wondering (need to decide) what pragmatically will make me happier. I have a big 2.35:1 screen (brighter is better then, but so would be auto aspect ratio settings); I love movies, but also like HD sports (film-like Panny would be great enough sharpness for these, but Epson super-sharpness would likely be sig. better for sports). Also, the Panny seems more prone to dust blobs since Epson uses that big filter, but Epson has issues some with dead pixels, convergence and HDMI handshake that noone seems to complain about with the Panny. It's a real cunundrum and now that my Panny 900 bulb just went- I'm projectorless - which is a real bummer. It seems both have +/- , but which one to pull the trigger on is difficult decision for me as I will only get one chance at a new PJ that will need to last me a few years.

I really like the motorized feature for zoom, but its not a deal breaker because I usually jhust manual zoom thee picture and adjust. the way I seee it, I've got to setup the pj, sound, and get snacks, so setting a movie up for 2.35 is just one other small step needed. Most movies I watch seem to be in that aspect ratio anyway, but even if its one, I still only need to adjust the pj once every couple hours, for each new movie. I grew up with the old tvs without remotes, so I guess I don't mind reliving those days once in a while.

The thing that sold me on the epson is the warranty, and I'm glad I did because my unit has the frozen ring problem and epson will overnight me a new unit once more come in from Japan and they pay for the shipping for both pjs. This is something you don't get with other companies, and having a problem right off the bat makes me releived that I don't have to spend more money on a new unit.
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post #633 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George L View Post

Just got mine mounted - no focus ring issues, one blue pixel is stuck on but I haven't noticed any dead pixels yet.

Auto iris is LOUD. Even 9 feet in front of the projector the groaning sound is too much to take. In high lamp mode the fan is LOUD, but it's not too bad in low lamp mode.

I don't have my HDMI cable pulled yet but with component signals there is a synch delay of several seconds when changing channels on the HD cable box if the resolution changes.

The only projector I can compare it with is my old NEC HT1000, of course the 6500 has much higher resolution and is much brighter but it is also noisier and takes longer to synch with new signals. No comment on colors or black levels until I make a few adjustments.

Maybe something is wrong with your unit, my fan on high is very quiet, I can only hear it if I am right up next to it. Same thing goes for the Iris, I have to be 1.5 feet from it in order to hear it.
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post #634 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

It's also LOUD for me and I can hear it from a pretty far distance. How are some reporting that it's so quit that they have to stand right next to it to hear it? This just doesn't make sense to me. I'm thinking that it may be a defect in the IRIS on some units. Or, maybe they had some leftover 1080ub IRIS that they threw into the 6500 units? I will call Epson and see what they are going to do about it.

How is the Epson warranty from those that have had Focus Ring problems? Do I have to take it to a service center? or do they require me to ship it back?

They told me they are goig to send me out a new unit next day air, but they are all out at warehouse, waiting for more from Japan. They told meI could take it to repair center, but they are to far, and I don't want to ship it out because by the time all that happens, the new one will probably come first. They seem to work with people, just tell them that Iris is bad making terrible noises and they will send you out a new one.

I wasn't sure mine was working at first because it was so quiet, but it is with the sound like the harddrive on a computer. I can only hear it if the sound is off as well.
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post #635 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:33 PM
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Seems like a heck of a lot of problems with this thing that QA should catch. Is this a case of bad projector or just the hand full of people who have problems come on here to tell the world about them? I was set on the Panny AE3000U until this bad boy came out not I am not sure (don't want this to become a debate about what is better, though I can't find that thread anywhere).


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post #636 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:40 PM
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watching the PANTHERS and CARDINALS with FI on High and all i can say is its AWESOME!!! FLAWLESS!!! WOW!!!
this is what it's made for,LIVE high def feed!! not for movies...
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post #637 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Flow72 View Post

Seems like a heck of a lot of problems with this thing that QA should catch. Is this a case of bad projector or just the hand full of people who have problems come on here to tell the world about them?

Hard to say. l have not heard a word on total item sales which would be required just to make a guesstimate.

And there is another possibility you did not list. It may be a fine projector but the first batch may have suffered poor QA because of pressure to ship in time for the holidays. That doesn't necessarily explain the execrable and excremental packing however.

As one in the hand is worth any number on the web I'm keeping the Epson, but... ...I dare not speak the rest.

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #638 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:52 PM
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Is there a lip sync or sound delay when turning on FI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

watching the PANTHERS and CARDINALS with FI on High and all i can say is its AWESOME!!! FLAWLESS!!! WOW!!!
this is what it's made for,LIVE high def feed!! not for movies...

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post #639 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

watching the PANTHERS and CARDINALS with FI on High and all i can say is its AWESOME!!! FLAWLESS!!! WOW!!!
this is what it's made for,LIVE high def feed!! not for movies...

Tomorrow with Pittsburgh will be a good test, lots of black .

Ye who now will bless the poor shall yourselves find blessing.
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post #640 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

Thanks for asking, I hope my coming posts will be of use to you. My first interactions with the 6500 were focused on an informal examination of its limits and problems. Further I've only watched Zoroastre twice and while focusing on the artistic dimensions of performance as captured in the recording/videography. I'm going to post my impressions of that disk as art in another forum tomorrow. Next weekend I expect to post here regarding ballet on the 6500 which as a generalization of my impressions should suffice for opera on HD as well.

my daughter loves ballet, but I do not know much about it. What Ballet BD's would you recommend? I am getting the 7500 in a couple days, but I have a 61" DLP and 52" LCD we can enjoy it on in the meantime.
I know she really likes swan lake.

thanks!
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post #641 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:03 PM
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Is there a lip sync or sound delay when turning on FI?

no lyp sinc issues.just a lot of praise....
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post #642 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

...this is what it's made for,LIVE high def feed!! not for movies...

So let's follow that logic. FI is made for live high def feed and not for movies. But fact is the "Normal" FI setting is the basic factory default mode for the PJ. I would say the implication here is that this PJ is intended for an audience of sports buffs, not movie buffs. But this leads me to have some doubts about your initial assertion unless you limit it with a subjective qualifier, eh? Or do you have that from the engineers or marketing or other source that makes my doubt a moot point?

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #643 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:33 PM
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if you take a poll.it would be overwhelming how many people would not favor FI for movies...not even close.
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post #644 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dude Abides View Post

my daughter loves ballet, but I do not know much about it. What Ballet BD's would you recommend? I am getting the 7500 in a couple days, but I have a 61" DLP and 52" LCD we can enjoy it on in the meantime.
I know she really likes swan lake.

thanks!

I won't be much help I'm afraid. The only ballet I have on video is Opus Arte's Swan Lake BD. Of the two Swan Lakes on BD it is gets the better reviews but I have not seen my copy yet. Still I dont' think you could go too far wrong with it given the reviews and my impression of Opus Artes' release of Zoroastre.

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #645 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

if you take a poll.it would be overwhelming how many people would not favor FI for movies...not even close.

Doesn't that support the position that the Epson is not intended primarily for movies given that FI is default?

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #646 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:46 PM
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fatory default...isn't that like saying government sponsored.i like to decide on my own as far as what's best.so if we went by factory default,then we wouldn't even have to do any calibrations.factory standards doesn't necessarily mean its the best for you.let's use some common sense here.if something looks unusual,it looks unusual.plain and simple.go ahead and do the poll...lol
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post #647 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

.if something looks unusual,it looks unusual.plain and simple.go ahead and do the poll...lol

I could be wrong but I think that analysis is a bit simplistic. For example, how do you propose to factor out the acclimatization to the defects of 24fps? I'm not saying you can't, just that I don't see how that can be done in a simple pole. But I am certainly ready to be educated and always grateful when I learn something new.

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #648 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 07:57 PM
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my last statement regarding this matter.overwhelming majority are not in favor FI for movies.it couldn't be more clear....SORRY
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post #649 of 4388 Old 01-10-2009, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

my last statement regarding this matter.overwhelming majority are not in favor FI for movies.it couldn't be more clear....SORRY

The majority of consumers don't have a front projector! Does that make them right and the rest of us wrong? FI is a very important feature for me and I'll bet it'll affect resale in a few years. If FI works for 1080i/60 H.D T.V. then why wouldn't it work properly if you send it 1080i/60 from a BD player?
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post #650 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

watching the PANTHERS and CARDINALS with FI on High and all i can say is its AWESOME!!! FLAWLESS!!! WOW!!!
this is what it's made for,LIVE high def feed!! not for movies...

The enthusiasm might have been reduced if you were a Panthers fan.

Thanks to all who have posted here. I thought that the 6500 would be the replacement for my BenQ PE7700.

Best thing about AVS is that actual users speak out and share their knowledge.

Worst thing about front projectors is, where the hell can you audition them?

Seems as if this model from Epson is a work in progress. I must admit to a bias in favor of DLP. But find a new DLP 1080p pj with a short throw lens, not easy.

That stated, Dr. No on BD, tonight looked fantastic on the 7700. Dark Knight was also impressive.

I'll keep reading. The shipping boxes, really that bad? If one ever has to send a unit back, could be important.

Joe
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post #651 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

It's also LOUD for me and I can hear it from a pretty far distance. How are some reporting that it's so quit that they have to stand right next to it to hear it? This just doesn't make sense to me. I'm thinking that it may be a defect in the IRIS on some units. Or, maybe they had some leftover 1080ub IRIS that they threw into the 6500 units? I will call Epson and see what they are going to do about it.

How is the Epson warranty from those that have had Focus Ring problems? Do I have to take it to a service center? or do they require me to ship it back?

Let us know what you find out about the noisy IRIS. I would rather wait until someone that is able to hear it currently, tries a replacement and reports their findings. My gut feeling is that they are all about the same level. When the IRIS is first turned on, you can hear the 'gear sounds' as it opens or closes. After it gets going, the noise level is not as bad. If I am watching TV, it becomes obnoxious in opening and closing each time I change channels. I have been leaving it on just to see if I can either become used to it, or break it in to a less audible level.


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post #652 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 07:48 AM
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the iris on my second unit is quieter. The 6100 that I originally had sounded like a grinder. During normal volume settings, it is not that noticeable.
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post #653 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 09:03 AM
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I was able to take some more contrast measurements after moving my pj back for the longest throw. With the iris off, the contrast improved to 6200:1 and 24700:1 with the iris on. I took a quick modified ANSI and got 385:1. I don't have the perfect setup for ANSI measurements and I wouldn't be suprised if other reviewers get better numbers. These are with a calibrated theater black 1 setting. In dynamic, I got 7800:1 iris off and 39200:1 iris on in high speed mode. Dynamic mode is about 2.5 times brighter than TB1.

I spent a lot of time looking at the FI settings using all different resolutions and timings I could send from my Edge. My reference scenes were the beginning of King Kong, especially the intro universal logo and the scene after the zoo which shows a guy against a shed and a few scenes later horizontally pans showing the back of a girl sitting on the ground with a light sweater on. The Low setting shows stuttering with the logo, the guys face, and across the girl's back. Normal and High are smooth and do not stutter. All resolutions behave like this except 1080p24. This shows additional stuttering on all settings, so do not use this res if using the FI.

In the next chapter where the guy sneezes in the dressing room, the Low setting looks ok except for the occasional stutters. Normal and High produce artifacts with the wrinkles on the guy's forhead. Bottom line, 1080p24 always stutters. Low produces stuttering with all resolutions. Normal and High produce artifacts with quickly moving material or complicated scenes.

I looked at King Kong, Cars, Transformers, and other material. I thought the FI Normal setting for the most part worked well with King Kong and Cars, but definitely had issues with the fast moving parts of Transformers. Cars looked three dimensional with the FI on. I think this will work well with animation. The scene in King Kong where the boat leaves the harbor at night and there is a horizontal pan across the harbor will make your jaw drop with FI on normal and the black levels of the 6500UB.

I also checked the 4:4 setting with 1080p24 with the reference scenes and seemed to work well at reducing judder. I didn't notice any issues with this setting. With my pj, the 4:4 setting only shows up on the menu with 1080p24 and 1080i60. It's grayed out with 1080p60.

I think with film, there is not enough information for the FI to calculate all the vectors properly and gets tripped up easily. Maybe the algorithms can be improved. We are used to only having 24 frames for film, so this gives the picture on non-reality look. Once you turn on the FI, it looks like you are there watching the actors being filmed instead of a movie. I plan on using it mainly for tv shows, sports, animation, and maybe a few slow moving movies. BTW, doesn't seem to have as much issue with video probably due to the higher frame rates and it already having a reality look, really is much more subtle. Hopefully, there will be an update to improve this and fix the long handshaking issues. Use the Normal mode and avoid 1080p24 to get the best picture. Hope this helps people trying to figure this thing out. Of course, YMMV.
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post #654 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 10:08 AM
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I watched 2 movies last night and never once heard the projector except when the fan went into "high" mode and then my wife and I both noticed it, but luckily it only stayed that way for about a minute or two then went back to low setting. Both my wife and I sat in the 2 seats DIRECTLY under the projector and in the back row which is elevated off the ground putting our ears much closer to the unit then normal.
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post #655 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 11:05 AM
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It seems Epson pulled the info on the 6500 from their website

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/P...yes&oid=-13923
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post #656 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neekos View Post

It seems Epson pulled the info on the 6500 from their website

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/P...yes&oid=-13923

I found information no problem, if this is the same thing you were looking at
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/c...egory=Products
I still can't believe that they don't have anymore left in the country. Are they behind shedule or what?
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post #657 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 12:59 PM
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that's weird, it's in the link you gave me, but not in the general group of projectors in the link I provided.
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post #658 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 01:50 PM
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I have read the manual and if the answer is there it eludes me.

If I feed 480p via SDI to a rather old Vigatec video processor and uprez to 1080p the output is much nicer to my eyes than feeding 480p directly to the 6500 and viewing the output on the screen. I cannot find just what the projector is displaying as provided by the internal processor. I assume it passes 1080p through untouched. Is there a menu that tells me? I rather expected the HQV processing to toast the decade old Vigatec. But perhaps I am not doing this correctly. Is there a table somewhere that defines the activities of the processor?

I realize there are a plethora of individual settings such as FI, Theater this and that and so on. But ignoring those things, what is sent to the panel?

Since I am playing the waiting game for the OPPO -83, this question has a direct bearing on that decision. Can I assume that the upscaled OPPO output will be passed intact through the 6500?

Ciao

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #659 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I just came back from the Epson booth at CES. They are aware of the reported issues and are committed to fixing most of the issues reported. The next shipment of 6500's should arrive later this week or early next. I saw the demonstrations of both the 6500 and 7500 and the picture is amazing. Great blacks. They were using a Harry Potter film for the 6500 and the Dark Knight for the 7500.
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post #660 of 4388 Old 01-11-2009, 02:11 PM
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after even more viewing over the weekend I'm 100% sold on the picture. Blacks are awesome, iris works really well, image has great pop and DLP depth, colors look great and I haven't calibrated yet, and it's plenty bright even in theater black 1 for the football, movies, and video games I've played on my 115" screen (granted, light controlled room with dark blue walls/ceiling).

I still don't see any improvement FI applies to football and I've decided I don't like what it does to TV/movies, which has nothing to do with the artifacts that have been discussed and more to do with the way it makes it look like everything is shot with a handheld digital camera. I love the depth and clarity it adds to the image but that strange look is just too much for me at this point and not what I think is intended when TV and movies are filmed. Still like it for video games, not going to bother with sports since I can't really tell a difference.

I hate that the projector seems to be getting somewhat of a reputation, at least in this thread, that casts it in maybe a less than favorable light. I think it's fantastic and I don't know that I'd use FI even if it were "fixed".
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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