Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by den110 View Post

I tried Frame Interpolation tonight for the first time while watching "Wanted". Boy, it felt like I was watching a porn movie It totally changed the whole look and feel of film. I can't see any director being happy watching what this feature does to their work. It made the movie look like a cheap hand held video camera production. 4:4 pulldown is where I keep my setting at.

I concur with your experience. Frame Interpolation is not a good solution with 24fps Blu-ray, and seems even worse with movies on HDTV channels. I do like it a lot, though for sports. All the FI schemes (panny, sanyo epson) where they are creating frames, are going to glitch, but I've watched tons of sports with it on, and it "works for me".

The way to go with Blu-ray is the 4:4 as you point out. Epson's trying to do too much with their FI (it seems, from talking to them). If you use FI with a 24 bit source, if I understood them correctly, they are creating 4 unique frames between each original frame. That way, they are going to 120fps not 96. By comparison (I think, don't hold me to this), Panasonic takes a 24fps, and creates just one new frame between each original frame, but then they play each one twice: 1, 1, 1a, 1a, 2, 2, 2a...... That's a lot less work, ends up at 96fps, and the end result definitely works cleaner.

The problem with movies on HDTV seems to be that the Epson instead of just working with the 60fps, and dropping in one creative frame, to get to 120hz, according to Epson, they strip the signal back to the original 24fps, and that's just more workload and potential for problems I imagine... -art

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post #902 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 09:48 PM
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Maybe you guys wil know the answer, when I enable 4:4 pulldown I see the difference, then when I enable FI on top of that It looks like FI is working even though 4:4 is still on but greyed out where it can't be turned off. So my question is, does the FI work along with the 4:4 or even working off those frames when FI is engaged, or does FI stop 4:4 even though it says on? The only way I can turn 4:4 off is by outputing the player to 480p then turn it off, and then turn it back to 1080p output which makes the 4:4 stay off.
Its confusing how they have it implimented, its either both are working at the same time, or one is automatically switched off. When I do have both enabled the effect doesn't seem as dramatic, so it makes me think both are working at once, but maybe its me.
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post #903 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick P View Post

Just a thought...any chance that the 'slowly degrading focus' problem is a result of loud, aggressive LFE from the subs? It might be enough to vibrate the manual focus wheel.

Hi Nick,

No, that's definitely not the problem (loud bass). I've been working with two Epson's since Evan did his post, and he and I have been communicating by email, since. He sent me a couple of images of the menu - there is definite rather significant defocusing on his 6500UB. I started looking at the 6500UB I have here, right after he brought this up.

Even with no sound, the problem is the same.

The good news so far, is that the 6500UB I have here has far far less defocusing, enough that you pretty much have to be looking for it to spot it. I've done a series of closeup photos of part of the menu, after initial focus (less than 5 minutes after powerup), 10, 20, 30, and 35 minutes.

I'll be posting a blog tomorrow on my site that will have the images I just mentioned, (and probably a set from the Epson 6100, that I am shooting later tonight). I think that will help those who don't have an Epson understand what's going on.

As the images will show, the focus change is very slight. The Epson 6100 I have here also defocuses, but noticeably more than my 6500UB, but still far less than Evan's 6500UB- perhaps half way.

I said good news. As I have read others mention here, Epson thinks this is a problem that goes away with time. I can't confirm or deny, but the one I have here has 190 hours on it, and it is, as I said, far better than Evan's or the 6100 (35 hours) here. So, maybe that's the trick, I'm skeptical, though. (Something about plastics having memory?) We shall see. make that "maybe some good news".

I know Epson is devoting a lot of effort on this issue, but no doubt it will take them at least a couple of weeks to determine the extent of the issue (ie will it go away? if not...) and what, if anything they can do about it. Epson should be able to deal with this. But it's unlikely that they will say anything until they have a full grasp of the matter. Thing is they really do "give a sh_t" about this kind of thing at Epson. -art

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post #904 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

Maybe you guys wil know the answer, when I enable 4:4 pulldown I see the difference, then when I enable FI on top of that It looks like FI is working even though 4:4 is still on but greyed out where it can't be turned off. So my question is, does the FI work along with the 4:4 or even working off those frames when FI is engaged, or does FI stop 4:4 even though it says on? The only way I can turn 4:4 off is by outputing the player to 480p then turn it off, and then turn it back to 1080p output which makes the 4:4 stay off.
Its confusing how they have it implimented, its either both are working at the same time, or one is automatically switched off. When I do have both enabled the effect doesn't seem as dramatic, so it makes me think both are working at once, but maybe its me.

Maybe? I can help. First, getting out of 4:4 when its grayed out. I think that happened to me once (some combination of things causes it). I think if you just exit the menus and come back in you can get to it again. That's from memory, don't bet the store on it. If I stumble on it again, I'll post.

Epson says that when 4:4 is engaged FI is off. I suspect, though, that there may be a sequence that leaves them both on (which is a guaranteed disaster, as 4:4 is for 96fps, and their FI is all designed for 120fps.) Haven't had the time to really try to track that down.

Bottom line, though, best I can tell, is forget FI for Blu-ray, use the 4:4. Life is good. -art

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post #905 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 10:44 PM
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Art, I appreciate your great reviews. I noticed on your 6500 calibration results, that you did not calibrate in natural mode which is reported to be the best mode. I am wondering if you have any plans to recalibrate in natural mode any time in the near future.
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post #906 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 11:25 PM
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Hey Art, maybe it goes away in time because eventually enough dust gets in there that it clogs it up enough to keep it from slipping on it's own. LOL

Brand new the focus ring is just too slick...get some dust in there and it won't move on it's own...just a thought.
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post #907 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post

Art, I appreciate your great reviews. I noticed on your 6500 calibration results, that you did not calibrate in natural mode which is reported to be the best mode. I am wondering if you have any plans to recalibrate in natural mode any time in the near future.
John

Interesting thought. "Technically" all modes lead to the same place when you are calibrating, assuming that one particular mode doesn't have some "feature" that the other modes won't allow access to. Natural, I believe also has the color filter in place. I'll have to bone up on my manual and see if there is any inherent difference. You can't for example expect the same results between TheaterBlack1 and LivingRoom, because the filter is in place for theaterblack1, and not for the other. -art

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post #908 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Snausy View Post

Hey Art, maybe it goes away in time because eventually enough dust gets in there that it clogs it up enough to keep it from slipping on it's own. LOL

Brand new the focus ring is just too slick...get some dust in there and it won't move on it's own...just a thought.

Life should be so simple. I know one person reported putting tape on the focus ring, and said problem solved, but I don't think that's going to do it. hang in there. -a

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post #909 of 4387 Old 01-20-2009, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

I know Epson is devoting a lot of effort on this issue, but no doubt it will take them at least a couple of weeks to determine the extent of the issue (ie will it go away? if not...) and what, if anything they can do about it. Epson should be able to deal with this. But it's unlikely that they will say anything until they have a full grasp of the matter. Thing is they really do "give a sh_t" about this kind of thing at Epson. -art

Not enough to adequately test their products before selling them, apparently.
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post #910 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Life should be so simple. I know one person reported putting tape on the focus ring, and said problem solved, but I don't think that's going to do it. hang in there. -a


I have this projector on order and it is ticking me off now to think I have to refocus this thing each time I turn it on or wait half an hour for it to return to focus. There is no excuse for that. The FI problem I can deal with because, as Art says, it is probably better off disabled except for certain sporting events. Even then, I probably won't ever fool with it as from what I hear it has lots of problems and even if it works properly does not present the kind of image one wants to see. To me, that defines the term "gimmick".

But this focus thing has me going. How can it "get back" in focus after half an hour? I mean it works on the principle of movement does it not? That is, if some noise (like a sub directly below the projector - as in my application) or some internal mechanical movement is detected it may vibrate the focus enough to slightly throw off the picture. But Art says this occurs even when no sound is present so it has to be a mechanical thing with the projector itself causing vibration from within the unit. Maybe like a car motor, a break-in period is required for things to seat themselves properly, hence, Epson's claim that this will pass in time as does some of the rattles and rolls of a new car.

Nonetheless, most other projectors don't have this problem. I have had a Mitsibushi projector for over a year an a half and have never touched the focus since the day I installed it. If I am correct that this is a "breaking in period" type of problem (as Epson intimates), why would the tape suggestion someone made not work? I mean once you finally have the focus perfect, tape that sucker tight and forget about it. What ever vibration or "breaking in" is going on with the projector should not be enough to dislodge the tape. The focus wheel is the only way the focus is adjusted, right? Or am I missing something here?

shortspark
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post #911 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Interesting thought. "Technically" all modes lead to the same place when you are calibrating, assuming that one particular mode doesn't have some "feature" that the other modes won't allow access to. Natural, I believe also has the color filter in place. I'll have to bone up on my manual and see if there is any inherent difference. You can't for example expect the same results between TheaterBlack1 and LivingRoom, because the filter is in place for theaterblack1, and not for the other. -art

It does appear that Living Room and Dynamic modes remove the internal filter in the optical path as compared to Theater Black 1/2 and Natural modes. The Natural and Theater Black modes can be calibrated for good colors and gray scale and using Natural (calibrated) and high lamp mode produces a relatively bright image on my 120" gain 1.4 screen. The Living Room and Dynamic modes shift the green color point significantly toward yellow and I haven't been able to adjust it back to where the green point should be for these even brighter modes.

As for the focus shift issue, I haven't noticed it in my 6500UB. The individual pixels are always clearly visible up close to the screen but I haven't specifically checked for it with program material, or perhaps when projecting a resolution test pattern. For those having the focus shift issue I wonder it its worse with the zoom set for longer throw distances as I would expect this would produce less depth of field in the optics and the correct focus setting would have a more limited adjustment range.

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post #912 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Low rumbly sound is definitely the iris. Are you ceiling mounted or shelf? Some sort of similar spacer for ceiling mounts might help too.

It's cieling mount. Like I said before, it doesn't bother me that much except when it's real quiet during a movie.

Also, I tested the focus problem on mine and I didn't have a problem after or before 30 minutes while watching The Terminator. The Focus stayed in tact through out the movie. The problem that I have is the Handshaking on these units. I have about 20ft. of HDMI cable in between the 6500 and my TX-805 AV Reciever and another 6ft. from Reciever to PS3\\DirectV Receiver. Sometimes I get about 30sec -1 minute response time for a picture to be displayed. I guess there's no fix for this yet which is something I can live with.
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post #913 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 05:55 AM
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Are "ALL" units effected by the focuse issue, or is this another one of those things like stuck focus rings or convergence issues, where it is hit or miss, or even a bad batch. If it is all units, RMA departments are going to be very busy if they actually find a solution and fix it on future units.
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post #914 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by smakovits View Post

Are "ALL" units effected by the focuse issue, or is this another one of those things like stuck focus rings or convergence issues, where it is hit or miss, or even a bad batch. If it is all units, RMA departments are going to be very busy if they actually find a solution and fix it on future units.

So far I've only read a couple of them on this thread with the out-of-focus issue. THe Focus Ring Lock is the one that seems to be more widespread.
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post #915 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 06:14 AM
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FYI, called epson yesterday and told them about the focus issue. they stated that i should not have to adjust the focus several times in the duration of one movie and are overnighting me a temporary replacement and are having me ship my unit to them for repair.
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post #916 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by theshadow1234 View Post

It's cieling mount. Like I said before, it doesn't bother me that much except when it's real quiet during a movie.

Also, I tested the focus problem on mine and I didn't have a problem after or before 30 minutes while watching The Terminator. The Focus stayed in tact through out the movie. The problem that I have is the Handshaking on these units. I have about 20ft. of HDMI cable in between the 6500 and my TX-805 AV Reciever and another 6ft. from Reciever to PS3\\DirectV Receiver. Sometimes I get about 30sec -1 minute response time for a picture to be displayed. I guess there's no fix for this yet which is something I can live with.

I'm using 6' HDMI cables from my sources (Directv HR22, and Sony BD player) to a Onkyo 606 AVR then a 25' HDMI to a ceiling HDMI connector, then another 6' HMDI from the ceiling connector to the 6500UB. I don't seem to be having any handshaking issues, just 10 to 15 sec. of black screen every time the resolution changes or a HDMI signal starts or stops. All of the HDMI cables are from monoprice and the long one (25') uses 22 gauge conductors and the shorter ones are HDMI 1.3a certified, although they use smaller conductors. Did you try bypassing the AVR and connecting the Directv receiver directly to the projector? If that helps, can you turn off, in the Onkyo's setup menus, all video processing/scaling functions to see if that makes a difference (the Epson's video scaler should do a better job at scaling non-1080p sources to 1080p than what your Onkyo 805 can do it anyway).

Like you I haven't seen any focus shift as the projector warms up. Is your lens' zoom set toward the wide angle (for short throw distance) or telephoto (for a long throw distance)? As I noted in a post above, I suspect this issue could be greater when the zoom is set for longer throw distances.

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post #917 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Is your lens' zoom set toward the wide angle (for short throw distance) or telephoto (for a long throw distance)? As I noted in a post above, I suspect this issue could be greater when the zoom is set for longer throw distances.

It's set for wide. I have a throwback at about 13.5 ' . Im using the same Monocables as well for HDMI connections.
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post #918 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 06:58 AM
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But this focus thing has me going. How can it "get back" in focus after half an hour? I mean it works on the principle of movement does it not?

Two words: heating, cooling
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post #919 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wolverine7 View Post

Interesting. Where on the right side is the lamp, and how much distance does it need? I'm looking at getting a 6500UB, but my existing ceiling mount is within a foot of a wall on the right side (right relative to me, unit is upside down). Front ventilation is no problem; it has 14 feet until the nearest object

In the photo of the pj on the top, you can see the cover where the lamp is located about the middle toward the right side. I had mine almost touching the wall and after giving it about 3-4 inches, the problem never came back.
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post #920 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Life should be so simple. I know one person reported putting tape on the focus ring, and said problem solved, but I don't think that's going to do it. hang in there. -a

I put a small piece of tape to tie the focus ring to the zoom ring just to make sure it doesn't shift due to vibrations from the subs, iris, ect. The slight focus issue is still there, but I have it set so after the warm up, it is dead on. Not enough to bother me, but if it was significant, I would swap it out under the warranty with another unit.

On the FI, I hope Epson is able to provide a less aggressive mode for film, otherwise I just go with 4:4. I believe the way this works is that if both are turned on and you feed 1080p24 (and I think 1080i60), it uses 4:4 and disables the FI setting. If you feed 1080p60, it uses the FI and disables the 4:4. I've found the 4:4 only works with 1080p24 and 1080i60. I have my Edge set for 1:1 framerate, so when I switch to blu-ray it 'automatically' switches to p24 and uses 4:4, and then turned off when back to 1080p60 for my other content upscaled through the Edge. The only other real nag is the long handshaking when changing the framerates.
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post #921 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:17 AM
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perhaps that extra strength super bulb - eTORTL 200W that we are all soooooo impressed with (and rightfully so mind you) and that gives the Epson a superbright picture- was not engineered perfectly into the new model resulting in an overheating issue (not enough to cause a fire mind you) resulting in too much heat (and subsequent cooling when turned off) to cause the materials (many of which are plastics) to contort on a micro-level (just enough to throw the focus out of wack??
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post #922 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:24 AM
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I question whether the lens has anything to do with focus shift. The culprit is heat and the imaging panels which are getting the full brunt of the lamp may be moving. The accuracies necessary to solder (I am extrapolating from D-ILA here) are very tight and the tolerance on the focal plane is likely to be small as well. So movement in that plane is more likely than a lens issue. I have no real data to base my opinion on. I suspect Epson knows.

I don't even have my projector set up. It would be interesting to see if there is lateral movement taking place. In other words, if a specific pixel on the screen moves left or right or vertically when the focus shifts then maybe the imagers are moving. Of course, heat could distort the entire case of the projector. More accurately, heat does distort the case, but it is usually below the threshold we can see.

The frantic push to get super quiet fan noise can easily come back to haunt the engineers.

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #923 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:31 AM
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I have the 7500 and tried FI at 1080i/59.98 with HD DVD and it worked great! Yes, I detected a slight stutter once in awhile, but it might have been the cameraman making a slight movement - the image is that clear. It's not perfect, but much, much better than I expected. One thing for sure - FI is not a gimmick or artificial. Film is more of a gimmick and basically artificial in comparison. FI strips away the cover of film so actors and directors have nothing to hide behind. Every expression, every word spoken and every reaction is clearly seen - if I were an actor I would use FI as a tool for scrutinizing other actors' work. It's like watching a live play. The "look" of film helps with the "willing suspension of disbelief" - no doubt about it, but FI adds a "nakedness" to a scene that separates the men from the boys. With FI on the image is amazingly clear, detailed and smooth. It gains a huge amount of real or "apparent" resolution - not sure which. I would think a videophile would love FI for its clarity, detail, resolution and smoothness while a filmophile would be somewhat shocked!
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post #924 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:43 AM
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Some newbie calibration question for my incoming 6500UB (I'm coming from the Panny 900 and AX100U previously):

1. So basically there are two sets of calibration, greyscale and basic adjustmnets (contrast, brightness, tint, color)? Which one should be done first, or are they independent of each other?

2. Greyscale can be done/applied for any mode within the two sets that have or do not have the color filter in the light path (Theater, TB1, TB1, Natural) or (Living Room, Dynamic)?

3. I have the original Avia test disc, not the Bluray HD version. Can I use the old 480p(?) to do my basic calibrations?
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post #925 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:53 AM
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I definitely have the 'focus problem'.
I just thought it was me at first. I'd been putting the lens cap on since I've had some light construction going on, so I thought I just bumped the focus taking it off. Plus I haven't had time to adjust the mount, and lens shift perfectly, since I've been working too late. Just figured it was a side to side thing, because I noticed it being out of focus mostly on Call of Duty menus.
Now that I know what to look for, it's totally an expansion/contraction thing when it's warming up. I have about 40 hours on mine, and the defocusing is quite drastic for me. It better improve. It's definitely not acceptable at this point, and if it remains, will require action on Epson's part.

As far as handshaking goes, I find this projector extremely slow. I have a 30ft. run, and am using a Gefen booster. I had to tweak the gain to get it to lock in at 1080p. There is no way one could possibly use the native resolution output from an HD Directv receiver. My Sony HS20 wasn't fast enough either, fwiw, but this is twice as slow.

But as far as getting this vs. the Panny, the extra light output is a clincher for me. With my grayhawk screen it can handle quite a bit of ambient light and I don't even need to run it on dynamic.

Is there an actual physical filter being added to the light path for the different modes? Or is it just a settings or algorithm tweak?
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post #926 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I have the 7500 and tried FI at 1080i/59.98 with HD DVD and it worked great! Yes, I detected a slight stutter once in awhile, but it might have been the cameraman making a slight movement - the image is that clear. It's not perfect, but much, much better than I expected. One thing for sure - FI is not a gimmick or artificial. Film is more of a gimmick and basically artificial in comparison. FI strips away the cover of film so actors and directors have nothing to hide behind. Every expression, every word spoken and every reaction is clearly seen - if I were an actor I would use FI as a tool for scrutinizing other actors' work. It's like watching a live play. The "look" of film helps with the "willing suspension of disbelief" - no doubt about it, but FI adds a "nakedness" to a scene that separates the men from the boys. With FI on the image is amazingly clear, detailed and smooth. It gains a huge amount of real or "apparent" resolution - not sure which. I would think a videophile would love FI for its clarity, detail, resolution and smoothness while a filmophile would be somewhat shocked!

Oddly, every reason you give for the superiority of FI over film are exactly the reasons I hate FI.

I think FI looks gimmicky and artificial. It's like saying "that Rembrant painting looks good, but wouldn't a photograph be better since it looks more real?"

I don't want the cover of film stripped away.

I don't want FI's "nakedness".

If I want films to look "real", I'll go to the theater and watch a play.
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post #927 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post

Oddly, every reason you give for the superiority of FI over film are exactly the reasons I hate FI.

I think FI looks gimmicky and artificial. It's like saying "that Rembrant painting looks good, but wouldn't a photograph be better since it looks more real?"

I don't want the cover of film stripped away.

I don't want FI's "nakedness".

If I want films to look "real", I'll go to the theater and watch a play.

And the beautiful thing is that you both can have it exactly the way you want it...with the same projector.
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post #928 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 10:57 AM
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If it was any where near as bad on the AE3000 i'm sure it would have made waves, your post however is the first i'v heard of the AE3000 having the same issue!

Two guys over in the AE3000 owner's thread that have reported focus creep. I suspect you are right, though: it's not a big issue or nearly as obvious on the Panny as it is on the Epson.

Signature Challenged.
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post #929 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 11:34 AM
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Does anyone have a 6500/7500UB without the drifting focus problem?
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post #930 of 4387 Old 01-21-2009, 12:11 PM
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Have the focus issue on mine as well, it seems. I thought it was happening because the table the PJ is on until it goes on the ceiling gets bumped occasionally as it's kind of in the way (the table's stable so the PJ is safe, just the room is still in a bit of flux and am waiting for a few more things to be delivered before I can really set up). I also have about 40-50 hours on it, and will watch it much more closely the next few weeks to see if it improves...

The picture itself is great when focused, and this is on a white bedsheet. Even though the Epson is in my makeshift theater room and seating consists of camping chairs, I rarely watch our Plasma in the living room for anything anymore (it's tough to watch a movie on the 42", when I have 80+" downstairs. Once I have my screen installed, I'll never leave!)
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