Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 01:49 PM
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Actually I think the problem is that 24p content still has so much judder that the FI processor can't keep up. (especially in fast pans) I read in an LCD thread that to get rid of all judder with a 24fps signal there was a processor costing more then 20 000 that was able to achieve this. Not even the flat panel LCDs can do FI with no artifacts on 24p material. I would bet that the PS3 with all its processing power could actually do FI itself with no hiccups. I wonder if Sony is experimenting with FI done on the PS3 itself? That would be a nice feature that no other BD player could do.
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post #92 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 02:13 PM
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Thanks for the reply but there are a few points I'd like to touch on. Checking the 6500 manual I see you are correct that they only use that word in the context of some non-constant function. So I will assume that anyone using that word intends the same. However, sequentially repeating a range data value (pixel value e.g.) at different points on the domain (time e.g.) in the interval between the originating data point and the next is by mathematical definition interpolation

And in that context it is hard to know what else to make of art's comment:
Quote:


Of the four top of the line 3LCD projectors, only the Mitsubishi HC7000 has frame interpolation, without creating modified frames between the original ones.

So I want to ask him how that is different than pull-down?

The other point; as I understand it, the frame creation interpolation function is applied to every frame (except possibly the first) i.e. you never get to see any frame in an un-processed state. Or so I've read in another thread in a post by someone who seemed professionally versed in the inner workings of the relevant algorithms.

Again thanks.

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #93 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Actually I think the problem is that 24p content still has so much judder that the FI processor can't keep up. (especially in fast pans) I read in an LCD thread that to get rid of all judder with a 24fps signal there was a processor costing more then 20 000 that was able to achieve this. Not even the flat panel LCDs can do FI with no artifacts on 24p material. I would bet that the PS3 with all its processing power could actually do FI itself with no hiccups. I wonder if Sony is experimenting with FI done on the PS3 itself? That would be a nice feature that no other BD player could do.

The PS3 probably could do frame interpolation if Sony wanted to add it. The problem is no display or projector can except a 120hz signal...yet.
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post #94 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snausy View Post

lol man I want to buy a PJ SO BAD but reading AVSForums keeps me from pulling the trigger.

Why can't a good PJ come out that just WORKS...it's always this issue and that issue.

Well all projectors work.

Some just work better then others, but none of them are perfect. They all have there down sides or "flaws". The trick is to find the one that has the flaws that YOU can live with.
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post #95 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip3kx07 View Post

Well all projectors work.

Some just work better then others, but none of them are perfect. They all have there down sides or "flaws". The trick is to find the one that has the flaws that YOU can live with.

Not only that but people have different level of tolerance and this forum get freaky at times. Getting a screenshot convergence from 1 inch of the screen and crying to 'OMG THIS UNACCEPTABLE'... Depend of people tolerance. Personnally i don't mind if i don't see it at listening position. I do mind if it's so bad that i see it clearly from my position... (11 feet) from the screen..

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #96 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I still want to know if you can get a "straight" image without 4:4 or frame interpolation? Can you get that film look? It seems from Arts blog that that "video" look is there on all modes weather frame interpolation is on or off and he seems to imply that with both 4:4 off and frame interpolation off it still produces that "video" look. Can anyone confirm that you can still get a film like image with the projector? I wish I had one of these for review.

4:4 looks pretty good to me, but frame interpolation looks very strange...
You can turn off both 4:4 and frame interpolation if you want. I actually didn't use either for the first 2 movies on this projector and they look great. 4:4 made it a little smoother (video like), but not unnatural. Frame interpolation is pretty much unwatchable for 24fps material.
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post #97 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

Not only that but people have different level of tolerance and this forum get freaky at times. Getting a screenshot convergence from 1 inch of the screen and crying to 'OMG THIS UNACCEPTABLE'... Depend of people tolerance. Personnally i don't mind if i don't see it at listening position. I do mind if it's so bad that i see it clearly from my position... (11 feet) from the screen..

I also have a convergence problem with my projector... it's off 2 horizontal pixels... but from 14 ft away where I'm sitting, there is no chance anyone could see it! NONE! Even with a test pattern, I couldn't see it from more than about 2 feet away. I doubt many average people would be disappointed with any of the newer projectors, regardless of which one they bought.
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post #98 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I just received an email back from Art at Projectorreviews:
Hi,
"I'm going to post another blog in the next hour. It's all coming together! -art"
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post #99 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 03:59 PM
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Is the 'depth' and 'pop' that Art raves about partly the result of FI? Is it still the same with FI off?

I'm curious to see how FI works on projectors. On flat panels, it does make things look too much like video. I watched DVD of an old B&W film on my Sony 52WL140 with "motion enhancer" set on high and it looked like I was watching a pristinely preserved 50's TV show. Rather odd. Occasionally, the motion enhancer got confused or failed to keep up and I saw stutters and breakups that looked worse than the usual judders. It works better on HDTV content.

Since LCD flat panels tend to make everything look more video-like anyway, I think FI just pushes the effect over the top. I think FI may actually work better on front projectors, which tend to make everything more film-like. FI may nudge projectors towards the video end of the spectrum and give LCD PJs the depth and pop of DLP PJs which some (including me) like. Unfortunately, it also makes the motion too smooth and look unnatural to eyes accustomed to something else.

But FI is still new and there are lots of refinements they can do to get a nice balance.
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post #100 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 04:14 PM
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OK guys,
Since my first round of pics were so blurry and grainy, I've switched my camera to night mode. I still don't have a tripod, so I rested the camera on a bar stool... these are much better... hope it holds you guys over until yours arrives!
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #101 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 04:34 PM
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Thanks sky! Those look great!

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #102 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

Not only that but people have different level of tolerance and this forum get freaky at times. Getting a screenshot convergence from 1 inch of the screen and crying to 'OMG THIS UNACCEPTABLE'... Depend of people tolerance. Personnally i don't mind if i don't see it at listening position. I do mind if it's so bad that i see it clearly from my position... (11 feet) from the screen..

Very true, take a look at the RS20 forum and everyone bugging out over the RS20's CMS. The RS20's CMS is not as perfect as everyone had thought it would but it's still better then not having it at all or spending another 4 grand on an external solution. But the way they are reacting you would think the RS20 was junk. Some times people do take things a little far, but that's all in the quest for perfection but sometimes you have to look at what people are complaining about and ask yourself, Do I really care? Is this something that's going to matter to me.

I agree with you on the convergence, if I can't see it at my listening position it's not a problem.
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post #103 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 04:57 PM
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Can someone please post some pics with a quality camera so I can see what this baby can do? Thank you.

Rich
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post #104 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 06:54 PM
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If straight (sans interpolation) 24fps 4:4 pulldown is what I think I understand it to be it's really hard to see how Epson could have bungled it as badly as art describes in his most recent blog entry. How do you owners feel about its performance in that mode?

please and many thanks

blu-ray Operas: 6
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There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #105 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 07:12 PM
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Well i think it clear it up

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...tion/#more-230

so if you want 24 fps, just turn off 4:4 and FI and you'll get normal 24fps

if you want 4:4 and/or FI , just output 30/60

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #106 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

Well i think it clear it up...

It probably would if one new more about this than I do. What bothers me is this: If the disk is recorded in 24p and I set my player to output 30i it must undergo 3:2 pull down--yes/no? And that introduces judder--yes/no? So does doing 4:4 after 3:2 remove judder? The answer may obviously be yes but I'm just left scratching my balding head wondering

blu-ray Operas: 6
blu-ray Ballets : 1
There's a reason they're called the fine arts--buy them on blu-ray.
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post #107 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

It probably would if one new more about this than I do. What bothers me is this: If the disk is recorded in 24p and I set my player to output 30i it must undergo 3:2 pull down--yes/no? And that introduces judder--yes/no? So does doing 4:4 after 3:2 remove judder? The answer may obviously be yes but I'm just left scratching my balding head wondering

Well it's only a preception of thing i think. The fact that FI add frame in between reduce judder anyway and look 'Smooter' than straight 24, because of this. Some people will like it, other won't. Personnally i don't know i never experienced it. If i don't like it, i'll just turn off everything and feed 24fps

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #108 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 09:09 PM
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May be some one techincal can explain this better than me: I'm sure all LCD projectors or panels run at a fixed refresh rate, meaning they run at 60hz, or in Epsons case, their circuit design depends on the voltage input.

Eg Australia power is 50hz = screen refesh rate 50hz in US power is 60hz = screen refresh rate of 60hz.
So I believe no matter what you sent the projector it must do frame rate conversions some where before its get to the panels, Its just depends on which of the processor used that does the job better than others.
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post #109 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 09:42 PM
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WOW...I am so ultra confused now with this whole FI and 4:4 discussion that I dont know what I will do next week when my unit arrives. I guess it is one of those things you just have to mess with. This will be my first projector and judging by my current lack of knowledge regarding this conversation, I will have a lot of tinkering to do.
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post #110 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 10:27 PM
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Alright guys, got it out of the box and ran it on a panel of styrofoam I'm going to use for an acoustics project. I was surprised how good it looked even on styrofoam!

Running blu-ray with frame interpolation was amazing to see but there was significant artifacts when anything moved fast or there was a repeating pattern and it was really distracting, it also took away the cinematic feel of the movie and it was more like watching a behind the scenes featurette. 4:4 pull down looked pretty good, did not see any jerkiness like the interpolation had.

Out of the box was super bright, adjusting for horizontal and vertical on the lens is a bit of the pain since you move one dial and it knocks the other one out of position.

I'll get some good pictures if you want on the temp set-up but it really is not a good screen to begin with.
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post #111 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

It probably would if one new more about this than I do. What bothers me is this: If the disk is recorded in 24p and I set my player to output 30i it must undergo 3:2 pull down--yes/no?

Yes, it normally would in certain scenes (fast horizontal panning, etc) but the 6500, takes the 3:2 signal and does reverse 3:2 and takes out the extra frame essentially recreating the 24p signal to work with I think

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

And that introduces judder--yes/no?

not if PJ does reverse 3:2 well there should be no additional judder due to processing, but it depends on what the PJ does with it after that. some can just display it at 24Hz (original intent of the director) or do 4:4 (repeat same frame 4 times at 96 Hz) or 5:5 (repeat same frame 5 times at 120Hz) or do one of several kinds of frame interpolation. This can make a difference in the final presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

The answer may obviously be yes but I'm just left scratching my balding head wondering

It's not obvious as Art has already discovered, but it certainly will be interesting to see how deep the rabbit hole goes . . . . BTW I think that guy may have the best job on the planet.
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post #112 of 4388 Old 12-25-2008, 11:41 PM
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is there anyone else here who can't turn off the 4:4 pull-down? i don't have the jerkiness or artifacts when viewing but was just curious about how to turn it off.
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post #113 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 12:11 AM
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I have decided on one of these three projectors for my first projector. Without concerning the prices, which one should I pick and screen size recommendation. I will using the projector to view blu-ray and hd dvd movies only. No sports or HDTV from TWC cable yet.

My room and setup:
18' Width X 21' Length
Projector to be mounted 16' from screen
Total dark color and light control room (bat cave)
8' high for front wall
Sitting 15' first row and 19' second row

For JVC and Epson, thinking on the 126" 16:9 Carada Criterion Series BW screen (really not sure if this is too big and should go with 110" instead)

For Panasonic, thinking on the 128" 2.35:1 Carada Criterion Series BW screen
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post #114 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haovn View Post

I have decided on one of these three projectors for my first projector. Without concerning the prices, which one should I pick and screen size recommendation. I will using the projector to view blu-ray and hd dvd movies only. No sports or HDTV from TWC cable yet.

My room and setup:
18' Width X 21' Length
Projector to be mounted 16' from screen
Total dark color and light control room (bat cave)
8' high for front wall
Sitting 15' first row and 19' second row

For JVC and Epson, thinking on the 126" 16:9 Carada Criterion Series BW screen (really not sure if this is too big and should go with 110" instead)

For Panasonic, thinking on the 128" 2.35:1 Carada Criterion Series BW screen

If you're mounting 16' from the screen to the lens, I'd go max (for the Epson/Panny) and go 160".
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post #115 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 04:34 AM
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Art says plainly that it's not bright enough to handle huge screens like that in his blog. While 160 would be nice...

"One last thought - movie watching in Theater Black 1 (”best” mode). As with the 1080 UB, about 110 inches diagonal in a darkened room, with a typical screen is pretty much the largest screen size I can recommend. If you want larger - you’ll need a high gain screen, or other magic. Trying to stretch Theater Black 1 across all 128 inch diagonal of my Firehawk G3 definitely resulted in a dim look to images. I couldn’t watch enjoyably at that size."

I would think 120" and less would be about all anyone could recommend. Which is still darn big. People talking bigger than that are still locked in last night's dream about having a full size theater in the east wing of their mansion.
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post #116 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 07:13 AM
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Isn't the Grawhawk a gray negative gain material? As long as you have a white material 1.0 gain you could probably go 120". Going big is possible but you would need something like the Da-Lite HP screen.
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post #117 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

It probably would if one new more about this than I do. What bothers me is this: If the disk is recorded in 24p and I set my player to output 30i it must undergo 3:2 pull down--yes/no? And that introduces judder--yes/no? So does doing 4:4 after 3:2 remove judder? The answer may obviously be yes but I'm just left scratching my balding head wondering

Since applying 4:4 to a video source that is either 30p or 60i (either is 30 frames per second) would result in a 120Hz displayed output and that is a even multiple of both 30 and 24. If Epson is doing things in the ideal way it should detect if the source is film or video based and then process to display each frame 4 (or 5) times. However since the Epson doesn't seem capable of taking a 24 fps input and properly repeating each frame 4 times without glitches, I question if they ideally handle film-based content that is input at 30p or 60i (with 2:3 pulldown). For example, if they are always displaying 30p or 60i inputs at 120Hz and the source is film-based the ideal result would be each frame repeated 5 times, ie. a 5-5-5 sequence (or if displayed at 96Hz each frame repeated 4 times). However, they might be displaying with a far less ideal 4-6-4-6 sequence to generate the 120Hz output from film based content.

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post #118 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 09:10 AM
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I had a 1080UB for a while and had no problem with a zero gain DIY 132" screen, using one of the brighter modes, calibrated (sacrificing a bit of accuracy but still looking very good.) I didn't even have total light control.

The 6500 is supposed to be just as bright, and running in high lamp supposedly doesn't shorten lamp life, so you can just run high lamp at all time.

I say go for >120 if you don't insist on running in best mode or you have a +gain screen. 160" IS probably too much, though.
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post #119 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 11:08 AM
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made a few more observations.Art from projectorreviews must've been feeding his 6500ub a 1080i signal to have gotten the results from his findings.Not sure if that was revealed.I went from a 1080p signal to a 1080i setting in the PS3 and have noticed very identical results.The judder,jerkiness,blurryness and "matrix" like movements completely dissapeared from the images after turning on the 4:4 pulldown and film interpolation.But the biggest difference i noticed when i switched from a progressive to an interlaced signal with FI & 4:4 On was the "video" look was gone and was replaced back by the "film" look.It actually looks very close if not identical to having a 1080p signal and having FI turned Off.Has anyone else tried a 1080i signal fed to the PJ with FI turned On?
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post #120 of 4388 Old 12-26-2008, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpauline View Post

I watched parts of Casino Royale on the 7500 yesterday. It was unwatchable when the interpolation was left on, regardless of whether or not it was on high, normal or low. Less motion artifacts were witnessed on low however it was still not acceptable. The image was film like when the interpolation was off and I did not witness any artifacts. Unfortunately I do not know what the Blu Ray player was set at i.e. if it was at 24fps.

With interpolation on the image is so real that it looks like a movie shot with a livecam except the fast scenes have a strange motion artifacts almost like watching the Matrix.

Which BR player do you have connected to the PJ? Wouldn't it be a good idea for people who are commenting on this to clarify the source device? We know some reports are with the PS3 (another on this forum + Art). I am trying to duplicate the behavior at the beginning of Dark Knight with a Panasonic BD35 passing through a Marantz SR-8001 HDMI 1.2 receiver and have not done so yet. I have not killed to much time on it yet, however, and I might not be using the right disc....but I would like to see if I can duplicate what he is seeing.
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