Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 06:55 AM
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I got mine ordered. Due to arrive later this week. Although the FI, 4:4 pulldown is not a big factor for me, (yet) im still excited about this projector and the reviews it's been recieving. This is my first projector. I have my Threatre Room ready with a 110" Carada Bril White screen mounted and ready to go.

Hopefully Epson comes out with some firmware soon to fix the FI problem.


Thanks
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post #182 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 07:39 AM
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How did the 1080UB handle a 1080p/24fps signal from a BD player? I ask because I thought that at this point in time it was no big deal for a projector to properly convert from 24 fps to 96fps(4:4). I am not surprised about FI, but I am surprised with some of Arts observations with 4:4 enabled with a 24fps BD source. Hopefully Art had a little to much eggnog and davedelite observations are the norm for this projector.

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post #183 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 07:51 AM
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Unfortunately 4:4 pull-down seems not to be as straight forward for the Epson as one could hope for. I've got a 7500UB here and its 4:4 mode displays odd stuttering and 'skipping' when fed 24p from a Blu-ray Disc. I hope this -- and similar glitches in FI mode -- can be fixed with a simple firmware update.

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post #184 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Unfortunately 4:4 pull-down seems not to be as straight forward for the Epson as one could hope for. I've got a 7500UB here and its 4:4 mode displays odd stuttering and 'skipping' when fed 24p from a Blu-ray Disc. I hope this -- and similar glitches in FI mode -- can be fixed with a simple firmware update.

Out of curiosity, which player and which BD disks did you view?

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post #185 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

Out of curiosity, which player and which BD disks did you view?

I use Sahara's credit sequence to check smoothness; the long and lovely camera movement is perfect for the job. I used a PS3, a Sony 550 and a Panasonic BD55.

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post #186 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:17 AM
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In Art's review he compares the sharpness of the epson vs the panny and the jvc.... when I look at the pause sign in the bottom left hand corner, it looks much blurrier on the epson than the others, anyone else notice this?

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post #187 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyser View Post

In Art's review he compares the sharpness of the epson vs the panny and the jvc.... when I look at the pause sign in the bottom left hand corner, it looks much blurrier on the epson than the others, anyone else notice this?

That might have more to do with the exposure settings than anything else. The photos Art posted are rather pointless for sharpness comparisons, IMHO, because they are relatively low res (500x267 per projector image).

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post #188 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

The photos Art posted are rather pointless for sharpness comparisons

The photos Art posted are rather pointless, period.

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post #189 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

Holy crap,
The review at pjreviews is up.

I can't seem to find it. Could someone post a link?

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post #190 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:43 AM
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From Art's pictures comparing sharpness I thought the Mits 7000 was significantly sharper. I just don't see the Epson as being all that sharp, at least going by his pictures.
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post #191 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The link to the review by Art of projectorreviews is below:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...00ub/index.php
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post #192 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

From Art's pictures comparing sharpness I thought the Mits 7000 was significantly sharper. I just don't see the Epson as being all that sharp, at least going by his pictures.

as stated before... i take his words at higher value than his pictures. some of the pictures from the AE3000 review were very blurry (and he state as much) so i think they are just to give you an idea. If says it is sharper... i am going to assume it is.
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post #193 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

The link to the review by Art of projectorreviews is below:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...00ub/index.php

Thanks!

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post #194 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

The photos Art posted are rather pointless, period.

One can never know what significance to attribute to such photos, period. But they are fun I pulled the trigger on the 6500 and will just be relieved if it doesn't have problems with convergence and dead pixels. But I'm upgrading from a 10 year old 50" SD set which died in September.

I dont' think a firmware upgrade via the RS232 port is very likely as in this very competitive environment if it had that capability Epson would almost certainly have mentioned it in their adds if not the user manual. Then I'm not one for optimism

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post #195 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith808 View Post

I notice the great majority of you 6500ub owners are talking about the issues with frame interpolation. Does that mean that you are not that impressed with the picture this thing is putting out? It seems like the problems with this pj are overshadowing the picture quality.

Can't agree with you more. Why is a new to the world feature, one that is by any reasonable measure a "bonus" feature or a toy, suddenly an all-consuming obsession? Even a professional reviewer like Art falls into this trap - he keeps saying it is a minor issue for most people then spends an inordinate amont of time ranting about it - what gives? Whatever the disclaimers about its insignificance, no one is actually comparing or talking about PQ - its all about the frame interpolation glitch! Are most people buying projectors this year just for frame interpolation? Maybe I am in the minority then. Or maybe people in this forum, and enthusiasts in general, love to obsess over minutia and crave for something to obsess about.
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post #196 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

One can never know what significance to attribute to such photos, period. But they are fun

They sure are -- which is why I've been flooding AVS with photos the last couple of days One should however always take into account that not every monitor is calibrated, and the uncalibrated ones can be (and usually are) wildly inaccurate. And when you factor in issues with lenses, cameras, dSLR sensor dynamics, noise, exposures, white balances etc., it becomes pretty obvious photos are a pretty unreliable method to illustrate a projector review with.

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Hopefully Jason at AVS will post his thoughts on the 6500, including the confusing 4:4 issue soon. I know AVS will be shipping starting today, but I doubt they'll start shipping the ones that Jason calibrated until next week, or maybe late this week. Jason should have some good thoughts once he starts calibrating some units. So far it doesn't look like he received an early unit for review.

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post #198 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post

Or maybe people in this forum, and enthusiasts in general, love to obsess over minutia and crave for something to obsess about.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

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post #199 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:35 AM
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I expect we will need a few more generations regarding 120hz trick to eliminate judder without introducing artifacts.
This is still very new with Sony being the first which has its issues. None are perfect. I consider it a gimmick for the time being until they work the bugs out. Some say 120hz is not enough, we need something much higher. It will be interesting to look back in another 3 years.
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post #200 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

And when you factor in issues with lenses, cameras, dSLR sensor dynamics, noise, exposures, white balances etc., it becomes pretty obvious photos are a pretty unreliable method to illustrate a projector review with.

Amen. I look at those photos with a very big grain of salt. The dynamic range of even the best d-SLR sensor falls way short of the human eye, not to mention problems with white balance when you're doing low light or long exposures.

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post #201 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:47 AM
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In the past I have used CRT projectors that had a fixed focal length and that determined throw distance based on my image goals. Then I used a D-ILA with 1500 lumens. I moved the projector to the back of the room. Zoom, home free.

Not really. I am in a different state and setting up for a 6500. I could, for convenience, locate the 6500 at say 24 feet and the zoom would allow a suitable image size. I could locate the projector overhead at say 15 feet off the screen. Same image size. Significantly more lumens striking the screen based upon online calculators. Is this an attenuation based on the intervening air? Or is it because the lens is focused differently and the real or effective aperture of the lens has changed. I suspect the latter. Heretofore, I had ignored this and it can affect brightness by 15-20 percent. Most of us avoid 'wasting' brightness and frankly after ten years of projector usage, it never dawned on me. I may want to rethink my layout.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Sony G90-->D-ILA--> LCD-->Vango LED DLP
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post #202 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:52 AM
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I just picked mine up!!!! I cannot wait for work to be over so i can go home a test it out. I must say, and in know this has already been talked about a bit in this thread, i was a little surprised by the lack of protection for the projector in the box. Mine came in the Epson packaging but it was only a few cardboard supports and there was a lot of play around the projector. I would think that they would want to protect it better. It is obviously still under warranty so i dont really care, but it was surprising.
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post #203 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:52 AM
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I did not even consider frame interpolation when I decided on getting the 6500UB, so this is all confusing stuff for me.

I'm not worried much. It doesn't seem to affect what I really care about (the image) and sounds like it could be a cool bonus if it works. If it doesn't, I don't care, the image should still be pretty darn impressive.

I'll let you guys sift through all the confusing stuff. Hopefully there'll be a fix for whatever the problem is. Until then I'm just going to enjoy what I was expecting in the first place.

edit: btw, just got the call from AVS and it looks like mine will probably ship out tomorrow. Good times ahead. Hopefully it can get here for the weekend, but I don't have high hopes with New Years and all that coming up.
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post #204 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 10:55 AM
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I like screen caps. Though I agree making a buying decision solely on screen caps is like buying a pair of speakers without listening to them, pointless. Still Art Freeman takes some damn nice photos. It's hard not to grin from ear to ear when you see a good set of screen caps.

To me all the new 3LCD projectors have improved so much, that at this point making a decision on which one is "the best" is almost game of pin tail on the projector. You could blind fold me and have me pick one projector and I would ultimately be satisfied with what I got. I still think the Mits HC7000 is one of the most underrated projectors and deals that is out in the market present time. I know most will choose the Epson, Panny or Sanyo, but like I said all of them are equally good at what most of us are looking for: good contrast, mostly accurate, vivid colors, and a sharp, well defined picture. I like my Mits HC6500 a lot, and like I said the Mits HC7000 is a wonderfully overlooked beast, but if I had to make a decision now, based on what is avaliable and what I know, I would more than likely go with the new Epson 6500UB and save some money. I would equally be just as content.
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post #205 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

One can never know what significance to attribute to such photos, period. But they are fun I pulled the trigger on the 6500 and will just be relieved if it doesn't have problems with convergence and dead pixels. But I'm upgrading from a 10 year old 50" SD set which died in September.

I dont' think a firmware upgrade via the RS232 port is very likely as in this very competitive environment if it had that capability Epson would almost certainly have mentioned it in their adds if not the user manual. Then I'm not one for optimism

As far as the firmware upgrade; I just upgraded my Denon receiver via its RS232 port and as far as i know they never advertised it as a feature. Most people didnt know you could do it until they were looking for 7.1 PCM input. I am not holding out hope for an update but it seems possible.
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post #206 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlubbers View Post

In the past I have used CRT projectors that had a fixed focal length and that determined throw distance based on my image goals. Then I used a D-ILA with 1500 lumens. I moved the projector to the back of the room. Zoom, home free.

Not really. I am in a different state and setting up for a 6500. I could, for convenience, locate the 6500 at say 24 feet and the zoom would allow a suitable image size. I could locate the projector overhead at say 15 feet off the screen. Same image size. Significantly more lumens striking the screen based upon online calculators. Is this an attenuation based on the intervening air? Or is it because the lens is focused differently and the real or effective aperture of the lens has changed. I suspect the latter. Heretofore, I had ignored this and it can affect brightness by 15-20 percent. Most of us avoid 'wasting' brightness and frankly after ten years of projector usage, it never dawned on me. I may want to rethink my layout.

Thanks for any thoughts.


It's not the air attenuating (and either scattering or absorbing that light! That would be something!). It is because of the lens optics - to throw the same size image further the optics end up wasting some of the light internally (presumably the excess light is now absorbed as heat inside the projector).

Manufacturers could optimize the optics to provide all the image brightness at minimum zoom (i.e. longest throw), but that messes up image brightness consistency for max zoom conditions - you end up with vignetting-like effects. It's just one of those trade-offs.

AFAIK, IMHO,

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post #207 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Unfortunately 4:4 pull-down seems not to be as straight forward for the Epson as one could hope for. I've got a 7500UB here and its 4:4 mode displays odd stuttering and 'skipping' when fed 24p from a Blu-ray Disc. I hope this -- and similar glitches in FI mode -- can be fixed with a simple firmware update.

I used credit sequence from casino royale and experience no "jerkiness" or "skipping" with 4:4 on 24p from Panny BD-35K. I DO experience some very consistent and expected (with 24p) stutter that is about 50% of what you get without 4:4 turned on. But, to be clear, this is the more film like behavior of 24p and not what I consider an artifact of the 4-4 implementation in anyway. The FI implementation does have some non consistent jerkiness when used with 24p source per Art.

I will keep my eye out for any certain artifacts of 4-4 in future viewings and report if my future experience deviates, but given that I am tired of the subject and feel I have found peace on when I will and won't use it (and therefore will start doing more enjoyment and less analysis) and given that bowl season is in full swing, and that this thread has analyzed FI too much already, you probably won't hear me opine on it much more.
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post #208 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:16 AM
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Ok...here is a major plug for Jason's QC/validation service for any buying from AVS. Look, I love this PJs design and feel its pq is unparalled for my needs at this price point. I am going to stick by Epson. But, the quality of this first batch should be viewed cautiously. My first unit that I have been reporting on has 3 (2 rather visible) dead or stuck pixels. I previously considered it to have a convergence issue, but I was wrong for any that read that. I took it back to the distributor today to exchange based on the very obvoius pixel issues. We lit it up, and he identified the pixels and confirmed the legitimacy of my return request. Absolutely no problem there. So, before leaving, we took the replacement unit he had held for me out of a box and beamed it up. What I am going to tell you next is ridiculous...but, I think I have actually read about one other case like this on this board in the past. The darn focus ring was locked up. I mean, completely unmovable. It would zoom, but not focus. So, that is not a good ratio out of the small number this distributor had, and it was his last. So, I spent a 1.5 hour roundtrip drive today to go show him why I was returning mine (which he agreed) and then his last unit in stock has an even bigger issue. I now have my original 6500 back and need to remount it in my media room and await more fulfillment to my distributor. I am not worried that he or Epson will stand by me. And, I will stand by them as this picture is very much worth it in all regards......but what a PITA. And, easily worth the small $$ AVS charges to pre-screen your unit if you don't have some deadline like I did for Christmas that you are no longer trying to meet.
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post #209 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

From Art's pictures comparing sharpness I thought the Mits 7000 was significantly sharper. I just don't see the Epson as being all that sharp, at least going by his pictures.

Be careful, I think he has mis-linked some pictures. I had the same observation, then realized when I clicked on the links and looked at the title of the pop up page on the header that he was linking to pjs that are not the 6500....you need to often check that..it is not the first time the wrong pictures have been linked to his page. I have seen it in some previous reviews. I have already sent him an email to this effect.
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post #210 of 4388 Old 12-29-2008, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenolas View Post

The difference between 1080i and 1080p is apparent. There is a sharpness and depth you get with 1080p which is not there with 1080i.

Compare the US Planet Earth with BBC Planet Earth.

Most of the same footage.

US 1080i

BBC 1080p

I have both...It's not just me, my friends say they can notice a difference too.

I'm pretty sure I read awhile back that both versions are 1080i and the BBC version has a printing error that misstates it as 1080p.

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