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post #91 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

The 0.95" chip pretty much prevents horizontal shift as it requires a pretty large lens to achieve it. Vertical shift works well with it though.

OK, but when someone talks about 0.95" chip preventing lens shift the first thing that comes to my mind is vertical lens shift.

Anyway I get what you mean but I wonder how much larger lens do you actually need if you want to employ horizontal shift too (in this case it's only 15%)? Is the lens used in the Planar's really huge?

Also isn't smaller lens that can actually resolve as much detail as large lens must be much higher quality than the bigger one? I mean can you really cut the cost by using smaller lens unless you aren't ready to make tradeoff in picture quality too?

Why vertical shift does not need larger lens?
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post #92 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

Why vertical shift does not need larger lens?

Its due to the aspect ratio. The chip is 16:9, its alot wider than it is high so you have more room for movement up and down inside the circular lens, than you have sideways. The smaller chip will increase the vertical shift, and even opt for horizontal shift, given the same lens size.
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post #93 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 12:48 PM
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Wing was telling me the smaller chip made it easier for them to add lens shift. Street price after a few months should be great on the two machines. A smaller chip should have about a 30% better / lower black level than the larger chip, throw in the aggressive iris and black level should be able to get quite low.

Chris, great pictures no hand shake, detail looks great and smooth too, can't wait.

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post #94 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfyncsu7 View Post

coolrda,

I see in the Benq thread that you also have an HD72. How does the 8200 compare to that?

I'm curious since I currently have the H77 and I'm wondering if the 8200 is worth the upgrade.

Absolutely. I have a feeling it will street for $4000 maybe $3500. Obviously picture is excellent. What stood out in my mind was the uniformity of the picture with excellent edge focus. Having a 140" screen, even with a HE Panamorph, at what I guess was a 12ft throw was remarkable (very small cramped room).
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post #95 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 01:52 PM
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Here's a iPhone screenie. Worthless, but I'll post it nonetheless. I can't seem to find a tripod for my phone.

[IMG][/IMG]
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post #96 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

Absolutely. I have a feeling it will street for $4000 maybe $3500. Obviously picture is excellent. What stood out in my mind was the uniformity of the picture with excellent edge focus. Having a 140" screen, even with a HE Panamorph, at what I guess was a 12ft throw was remarkable (very small cramped room).

I asked a guy at the booth, msrp is closer to $10K and he said it will street at $4999 and nothing less.

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post #97 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 02:01 PM
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post #98 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Dallas View Post

I asked a guy at the booth, msrp is closer to $10K and he said it will street at $4999 and nothing less.

Its well worth $5k.
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post #99 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

Its due to the aspect ratio. The chip is 16:9, its alot wider than it is high so you have more room for movement up and down inside the circular lens, than you have sideways. The smaller chip will increase the vertical shift, and even opt for horizontal shift, given the same lens size.

Yes but can you really get the same performance out of the same lens by using the smaller chip (I don't think that lenses have unlimited resolution)?
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post #100 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

Yes but can you really get the same performance out of the same lens by using the smaller chip (I don't think that lenses have unlimited resolution)?

AFAIK, you get better performance by doing so. Lenses got nothing to do with resolution, and im thinking we are getting of topic btw.

Im hoping BenQ will be using this chip in their next release. I would replace my W10000 with the Optoma had it not been for the damn 5% offset.
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post #101 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post

Its well worth $5k.

I hope it will be, but I would like to see how it compares to the current BenQs and the Sharp 20k before being confident of that.

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post #102 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 03:25 PM
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Considering it's an Optoma, they've really improved on the looks.

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post #103 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

AFAIK, you get better performance by doing so. Lenses got nothing to do with resolution, and im thinking we are getting of topic btw.

This is getting a bit side track like you said but I find this interesting and I definitely must admit I have different understanding about lenses. Are you basically saying that as long as the chip size is the same you can get what ever resolution out of the same optics? For instance (just hypothetic example) you have an old VGA resolution pj and new 1080p chip happens to be same size as original one you could get full resolution of the the old optics.
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post #104 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats what im saying
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post #105 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

Thats what im saying

And you will get all the resolution without it anyway being blurred? Interesting indeed and I find it hard to believe. If that's the case I guess we'll should probably soon see for instance the updated version of the Optoma HD70 with full hd chip inside.
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post #106 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 06:27 PM
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If the size of the chip is larger, a larger lens had to be used. Like the one in the HD80 for it's .95 chip, they had to find a platform with the larger lens so they used the EP910. The two dark chip 3's will produce the same quality image. Ti saves on down sizing so the customer gets a break on the price. Blacks should be better with the newer chip because of the smaller sized reflection, something to consider. Then again the .95 in the HD80 should be brighter. Could be good, could be bad.

The key thing we are all excited about here and I know you know it is the Ti Dynamic Black system. It should change all the negatives of needing better blacks on the earlier models HD80 /xxx models included.

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post #107 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 06:48 PM
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I saw this at CES & reported in another thread, I thought it had as good a picture as the $35K Sim2 Lumis and on a much larger screen to boot. The Optoma was on a 140" width wheras the Lumis was on a 109" and I know screenshots are for fun but I took a few for people to compare. Even in the screenshots you can see what I'm talking about

I thought the HD8200 looked very good too, but lets not get carried away. I doesn't look as good as a 3 chip DLP. The C3X Lumis looked much better. But for the money, the HD8200 looks very good. One has to remember they were also using an anamorphic lens on the HD8200 too.

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post #108 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 07:02 PM
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"Blacks should be better with the newer chip because of the smaller sized reflection, something to consider."

The brights are smaller sized as well, so same CR other things equal.

But they're not; the smaller DMD has a greater ratio of mirror edge length (which causes diffraction/scatter) to mirror area, so if anything CR/blacks would be worse.

Noah
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post #109 of 1055 Old 01-18-2009, 07:35 PM
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My engineer buddy said you'd be hard pressed to see a difference between the 2 dark chip 3's. I expect even better blacks without the anamorphic lens which is how I'll be testing it. I really don't think we'll be wanting for blacks with this machine, who knows maybe it will be all washed out with hazy blacks.

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post #110 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

The two dark chip 3's will produce the same quality image.

What has changed since 720p chip times where smaller chip was not considered as good?

Do you know are the both chips equally fast, meaning can you run the color wheel at the same speed and have as many wheel segments with either of them?

BTW. Why this new model only has 6 segment wheel (any idea how fast it is spinning)?

Quote:


The key thing we are all excited about here and I know you know it is the Ti Dynamic Black system. It should change all the negatives of needing better blacks on the earlier models HD80 /xxx models included.

It should make a huge difference if they have implemented it anywhere near as well as Benq did and used similar IRIS as they did. Do you know does Optoma use fast "stepless" IRIS in this new model (not the same very slow "click, click, click" stepping model like in the HD8x series)?
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post #111 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Blacks should be better with the newer chip because of the smaller sized reflection, something to consider."

The brights are smaller sized as well, so same CR other things equal.

But they're not; the smaller DMD has a greater ratio of mirror edge length (which causes diffraction/scatter) to mirror area, so if anything CR/blacks would be worse.

Do you know was that the reason with the older 720p chips where the smaller one was consider worse than the bigger one? Or was there some other reasons too? I remember that the bigger chip was definitely considered better but I cannot remember what all the reasons were.
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post #112 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 03:48 AM
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Nope the H77 was unusual it has a 100% movement. Right you could have the PJ image start out straight up on the ceiling and move it all the way down to catch up with a screen. It was wild when I first checked one out. The HD8200 lets think of it as a projector with a fixed offset say like the HD80 or HD81 etc, but this one will allow you to shorten the offset from 30% of the screen height to 5% of the screen height, that's either 5% over the top or under the bottom screen or 30% over /under but not within the screen area.

Lens shift range in the HD8200 is advertised as 105-130% (specs sheet does not say +/- but I assume it is) but it cannot do 100% movement, so how does it work actually? Does it go both ways (up/down)? Shouldn't you be able to have screen top below the lens or screen bottom above the lens or anywhere in between if lens shift range is over 100% as advertised?

Since it has +/-15% horizontal shift, the lens should be plenty big to have at least 100% vertical shift. Am I missing something here?
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post #113 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Shift range isnt advertised as over 100%. The shift range is advertised as between the minimum and maximum offset, wich is between 5% and 30% of your projected image height. If you are projecting onto a 1 meter high screen, the top of the screen will have to be placed 5 - 30 cm beneath the center of the lens. The more vertical shift you use, the less horizontal can be applied. Someone correct me if im wrong.
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post #114 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post

Shift range isnt advertised as over 100%. The shift range is advertised as between the minimum and maximum offset, wich is between 5% and 30% of your projected image height. If you are projecting onto a 1 meter high screen, the top of the screen will have to be placed 5 - 30 cm beneath the center of the lens. The more vertical shift you use, the less horizontal can be applied. Someone correct me if im wrong.

Do you mean that vertical lens shift only moves one direction and is practically only 25% and that you cannot place lens center within image area?

If so then it does not make any sense. I thought the smaller chip should have allowed more lens shift, like I was told, and since this one has even horizontal lens shift there should have been room for at least 100% vertical shift easily. Even the Benq W5000/20000 units have +120% - -80% vertical lens shift and they have smaller lens than the Optoma HD80 which does not have any kind lens shigt. I must have missed something here because I don't get it?
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post #115 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 07:10 AM
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Does anyone know if this thing is 3D ready? I read in the specs that it's 480hz, so all it has to do is be able to accept a 120hz signal. They've had 3D ready Rear Pro for a couple of years, I wonder what the hold up is? My next projo is gonna have to be 3D.
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post #116 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

My engineer buddy said you'd be hard pressed to see a difference between the 2 dark chip 3's. I expect even better blacks without the anamorphic lens which is how I'll be testing it. I really don't think we'll be wanting for blacks with this machine, who knows maybe it will be all washed out with hazy blacks.

The lens would not affect black level at all. What it would (theoretically) affect is simultaneous CR, however when Cine4Home tested an anamorphic lens on the AE3000, they found the difference in simultaneous CR (ANSI in their case) to be negligible.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #117 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Does anyone know if this thing is 3D ready? I read in the specs that it's 480hz, so all it has to do is be able to accept a 120hz signal. They've had 3D ready Rear Pro for a couple of years, I wonder what the hold up is? My next projo is gonna have to be 3D.


Do you have a link to the '480hz' info?

I'd be really interested to know this as well. If the HD8200 is 3D-ready, I can't see myself being able to hold back from making this my next projector later this year.
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post #118 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 08:15 AM
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I was told by a rep at CES that the unit will list for $5K.
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post #119 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark A Gonzalez View Post

I was told by a rep at CES that the unit will list for $5K.

That sounds a bit high because it is cheaper than that even in Europe where these usually are higher priced.
The HD82 (The HD8200 euro version) MSRP in UK seems to be £2,999.95 (about $4.360).
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post #120 of 1055 Old 01-19-2009, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

Do you mean that vertical lens shift only moves one direction and is practically only 25% and that you cannot place lens center within image area?

Thats how i understand it, yes.

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Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

If so then it does not make any sense. I thought the smaller chip should have allowed more lens shift, like I was told, and since this one has even horizontal lens shift there should have been room for at least 100% vertical shift easily. Even the Benq W5000/20000 units have +120% - -80% vertical lens shift and they have smaller lens than the Optoma HD80 which does not have any kind lens shigt. I must have missed something here because I don't get it?

By adding horizontal shift, they are wise to limit the vertical shift. The Optoma should have plenty placement flexibility for most. BenQ does a larger vertical shift range but doesnt do horizontal at all. Pretty much all the makers do this differently, so whats so difficult to understand? Imagewise, the Optoma should be far superior over the BenQ`s. Hopefully BenQ will have something competitive coming though, as the Optomas offset is not for me.
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