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post #1 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm now pretty torn between the blacks and on/off of rs10 and ansi and "pop" of DLP's for my next PJ. Wish I could view them side by side but I doubt I can do it. So those who have seen any jvc-dla pj and a good DLP pj : which one looked more impressive/striking/pleasing to you?
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post #2 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

I'm now pretty torn between the blacks and on/off of rs10 and ansi and "pop" of DLP's for my next PJ. Wish I could view them side by side but I doubt I can do it. So those who have seen any jvc-dla pj and a good DLP pj : which one looked more impressive/striking/pleasing to you?

I like the lower absolute blacks of the JVC's, and generally just prefer the more natural film like look of LCOS.
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post #3 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 02:35 PM
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If I am not mistaken, a projector with high native on/off CR and proper gamma along with a good lens will produce improved image depth in higher APL scenes as would a projector with very high ANSI. In this situation, it would likely be an advantage to have better black level. Correct me if I am wrong.

However, there is something more to the look and feel of a DLP in comparison to an LCOS. I like the look of DLP but I am a bit sensitive to color separation artifacts (aka rainbows).

Keep in mind that even if you are not rainbow sensitive, there may be children, etc. in your family who are. Though not all single chip DLP's produce rainbows to the same degree. One of my kids would complain of headaches when viewing my H79.
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post #4 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by RobZ View Post

If I am not mistaken, a projector with high native on/off CR and proper gamma along with a good lens will produce improved image depth in higher APL scenes as would a projector with very high ANSI. In this situation, it would likely be an advantage to have better black level. Correct me if I am wrong.

However, there is something more to the look and feel of a DLP in comparison to an LCOS. I like the look of DLP but I am a bit sensitive to color separation artifacts (aka rainbows).

Keep in mind that even if you are not rainbow sensitive, there may be children, etc. in your family who are. Though not all single chip DLP's produce rainbows to the same degree. One of my kids would complain of headaches when viewing my H79.

Single chip DLP's give me wicked headaches and make me feel naucious after extended viewing sessions, due of coarse to rainbow effect. It's kind of funny how rainbows bother me, but motion blur doesen't, go figure...
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post #5 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it true that DLP's have no motion blur and all the details in the picture remain clear during pans and everything? I noticed a significant loss of detail in pans with mitsubishi hc6000 and I'd be really happy without it. But as I understand rs10 has as much motion blur as an average 3lcd pj?
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post #6 of 59 Old 01-20-2009, 07:05 PM
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So those who have seen any jvc-dla pj and a good DLP pj : which one looked more impressive/striking/pleasing to you?

I still much prefer the clear sharp look of my single chip DLP ( dVision 1080p ), although the JVC projectors do look good. To me though they do not look as crisp and " real ".

Quite frankly, I thought the SIM2 C3X Lumis HOST had the best of the DLP look with the blacks of the JVC's - unbeatable looking picture !!

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post #7 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Where do LCD projectors fall in terms of "pop" and "dynamic image" compared to DLP and LCOS. Reason for asking is that I had an lcd projector before (hc6000).
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post #8 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

Single chip DLP's give me wicked headaches and make me feel naucious after extended viewing sessions, due of coarse to rainbow effect. It's kind of funny how rainbows bother me, but motion blur doesen't, go figure...

Exactly the same for me. Glad that at least we have options
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post #9 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

I'm now pretty torn between the blacks and on/off of rs10 and ansi and "pop" of DLP's for my next PJ.

Just one note of caution, no one can really predict what your actual ANSI contrast would be without discussing your viewing environment. A 600:1 ANSI spec. is great if you own a velvet bat cave. However, set up that projector in a typical living room and that lab measurement could drop down to an actual 200:1. Bottom line, if someone who hasn't made any measurements is telling you that you need or don't need a high ANSI contrast projector is really only guessing.

Human perception is not a direct consequence of reality, but rather an act of imagination. - Michael Faraday
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post #10 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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My ceiling and floors are stained wood (brown) and I'm gonna cover all the walls with black tarps, hopefully 100%
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post #11 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdputnam View Post

Just one note of caution, no one can really predict what your actual ANSI contrast would be without discussing your viewing environment. A 600:1 ANSI spec. is great if you own a velvet bat cave. However, set up that projector in a typical living room and that lab measurement could drop down to an actual 200:1. Bottom line, if someone who hasn't made any measurements is telling you that you need or don't need a high ANSI contrast projector is really only guessing.

Good point. On the other hand, on/off can benefit in any viewing environment (within reason of course).
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post #12 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdputnam View Post

Just one note of caution, no one can really predict what your actual ANSI contrast would be without discussing your viewing environment. A 600:1 ANSI spec. is great if you own a velvet bat cave. However, set up that projector in a typical living room and that lab measurement could drop down to an actual 200:1. Bottom line, if someone who hasn't made any measurements is telling you that you need or don't need a high ANSI contrast projector is really only guessing.


Actually if you have light colored walls you will be lucky to get 100:1 ansi contrast.
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post #13 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 10:22 AM
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the ANSI contrast measurement is a useless metric for projectors.

Unless there's at least a magnitude difference it's a pointless comparison.
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post #14 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronomy View Post

Actually if you have light colored walls you will be lucky to get 100:1 ansi contrast.

This is simplistic.

Say you have a scene that is primarily dark, but with a smattering of midtones and highlights. Here you aren't going to cast a large amount of light out onto those walls to be reflected back to the screen. Here is where you will also see a significant advantage to higher ansi contrast. There is no shortage of scenes like this in movies...from Wall-e space walks to the dark fighting scene against a city scape between [insert hero here] and the villain.

I have light coloured walls and a white ceiling. Nevertheless the rendering of darker scenes on my W5000 is nothing short of stunning. I did a side by side with a pro cinema 1080ub...it was no contest at all in dark scenes even though the 1080ub has slightly darker blacks....it just looks flat if you are used to higher ansi contrast.

In primarily bright scenes, the blacks will get washed out by ambient reflections either on dlp or other technologies. Never mind that ansi contrast is a much better indication of typical viewing compared to on/off. This is what steered me away from thinking about the JVC.

The bottom line is that in dark scenes ansi contrast really shines (light walls or not)...in bright scenes with lots of ambient reflections its advantages are neutralized...but then it does no worse than any other projector with better on/off numbers anyway.

Here's an example of a screenshot from my w5000 on a behr silverscreen screen. To my eye on my monitor, the rendering is just about exactly right:



Dark scenes against a city scape in...say...The Dark Knight are incredible.
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post #15 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg View Post

the ANSI contrast measurement is a useless metric for projectors.

Unless there's at least a magnitude difference it's a pointless comparison.

Anyone who looked at the 1080ub next to the w5000 (who certainly don't differ by an order of magnitude in ANSI) could easily tell which had the better contrast in most scenes.

I just don't see how that metric is useless. On/off, IMO, seems the more irrelevant of the two metrics....though I am no expert.
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post #16 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 11:10 AM
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I was able to A/B our 2+ year old Sharp 20K against the recently purchased JVC RS20. I was expecting the much better on/off of the JVC to make this an easy decision as to which one to keep... turns out not to be the case... Even though the JVC is brighter with a slightly better black level (i.e. better on/off) the Sharp offers, to my eyes anyways, equal or better dimensionality/depth on nearly all types of scenes (low apl, high apl, mixed). I attribute this to the much better ANSI (simultaneous... whatever you want to call it) contrast ratio. The right kind of scene and the Sharp appears to have better contrast than the JVC. For those that don't suffer from the effects of the color wheel I think the better DLP's hold their own against higher on/off contrast but lower ANSI level machines.

I'm living with the JVC for now as I do appreciate the better brightness (especially when the Panamorph lens is in place) as the Sharp is no light cannon but I plan on revisiting this comparison after a bit before making the final decision as to which one to keep.

IMO, if JVC can improve the ANSI contrast on these LCOS projectors then they will really have something. I wonder that with the LCOS technology better ANSI/simultaneous is simply not possible or does JVC focus their engineering on the features that look sexy in an advertisement (i.e. 50000 to 1 contrast!) and not necessarily on features that improve the picture but whose benefits are harder to communicate to the masses (such as ANSI/simultaneous contrast).
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post #17 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

Is it true that DLP's have no motion blur and all the details in the picture remain clear during pans and everything?

DLPs have motion dithering which tends to artificially sharpen the picture during motion, it can look horrible.
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post #18 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

Say you have a scene that is primarily dark, but with a smattering of midtones and highlights. Here you aren't going to cast a large amount of light out onto those walls to be reflected back to the screen. Here is where you will also see a significant advantage to higher ansi contrast. There is no shortage of scenes like this in movies...from Wall-e space walks to the dark fighting scene against a city scape between [insert hero here] and the villain.

I think you are confusing ANSI CR and intra-image CR. ANSI CR is a specific case that is an extreme image, far from the average movie scene. If a projector is putting out 1000 lumens then the ANSI CR test is 500 lumens and the average movie scene is somewhere around 100 lumens. It is useful, but the kind of stuff you are talking is also about on/off CR as far as the determining factor for the intra-image CR for those scenes.
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

I have light coloured walls and a white ceiling. Nevertheless the rendering of darker scenes on my W5000 is nothing short of stunning. I did a side by side with a pro cinema 1080ub...it was no contest at all in dark scenes even though the 1080ub has slightly darker blacks....it just looks flat if you are used to higher ansi contrast.

What you are seeing also could be related to MTF at high frequency and dynamic iris issues, since the 1080UB doesn't have big native on/off CR. High ANSI CR can go with high MTF at high frequencies, but I think DLPs tend to do well at high resolution anyway.
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

The bottom line is that in dark scenes ansi contrast really shines (light walls or not)...

Dark scenes are where high on/off CR tends to dominate, but it depends on things like whether a DI is being used and small bright things in a dark scene have to be reduced because of that.

--Darin

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post #19 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfm View Post

I was able to A/B our 2+ year old Sharp 20K against the recently purchased JVC RS20. I was expecting the much better on/off of the JVC to make this an easy decision as to which one to keep... turns out not to be the case... Even though the JVC is brighter with a slightly better black level (i.e. better on/off) the Sharp offers, to my eyes anyways, equal or better dimensionality/depth on nearly all types of scenes (low apl, high apl, mixed). I attribute this to the much better ANSI (simultaneous... whatever you want to call it) contrast ratio. The right kind of scene and the Sharp appears to have better contrast than the JVC. For those that don't suffer from the effects of the color wheel I think the better DLP's hold their own against higher on/off contrast but lower ANSI level machines.

I'm living with the JVC for now as I do appreciate the better brightness (especially when the Panamorph lens is in place) as the Sharp is no light cannon but I plan on revisiting this comparison after a bit before making the final decision as to which one to keep.

IMO, if JVC can improve the ANSI contrast on these LCOS projectors then they will really have something. I wonder that with the LCOS technology better ANSI/simultaneous is simply not possible or does JVC focus their engineering on the features that look sexy in an advertisement (i.e. 50000 to 1 contrast!) and not necessarily on features that improve the picture but whose benefits are harder to communicate to the masses (such as ANSI/simultaneous contrast).

Were you able to compare with the RS20 at 2.4 or 2.5 gamma?
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post #20 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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So does DLP have better or worse motion handling than 3lcd or lcos?
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post #21 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

So does DLP have better or worse motion handling than 3lcd or lcos?

Just a little bit of information from a comparison here. Some of us compared a Samsung A800B (DLP), Sony VW80 (LCOS), JVC RS20 (LCOS), and Panasonic AE3000 with some test images, mostly from the FPD demo disc with the image of the girl on the hammock that you may have seen images from around here. The RS20 gets banding on that test pattern, so there is a knock to some motion handling. Then there was blurring of the hammock itself that I think happened on all of them in their normal modes. I'm forgetting some specifics, but there were also some artifacts at different points depending on projector and mode (like colors around where the hammock material came together with motion interpolation on the VW80).

We tried a test pattern with just vertical lines at different resolutions that scrolls across the screen. My memory is that the DLP showed more resolution than either LCOS in their normal modes, but the VW80 with dark frame insertion in the first mode (regular frames, then black frames) showed more resolution to our eyes during this motion than the DLP. I think the fake frame insertion (VW80 and AE3000) also showed more visible resolution than the DLP during motion. This also held with a high resolution test pattern with words at different sizes that scrolled horizontally.

With some test patterns the AE3000 also looked like it had less judder to our eyes than the others, even without the frame interpolation on. Not sure if this applies to real material and whatever was causing this might have been considered bad in other ways.

We only had so much time and so basically only compared stuff off test pattern discs.

While the VW80 showed more resolution on these 1080i test patterns to my eyes with this dark frame insertion on, I didn't find anything in real material where I saw the same effect as far as seeing more resolution with it on. Maybe it is partially my eyes and others would have though.

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post #22 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Which is a better DLP projector : sharp z20k or benq w20k?
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post #23 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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But frame interpolation of panasonic makes movies look "unnatural" as far as I understand. What about the DLP projectors, do they also look unnatural with their dithering?
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post #24 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 02:59 PM
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It can depend on set up - a DLP with cinema levels of reflectance will look perfectly fine IMHO with no artifacts that stand out, but you might be prone to RBE in which case single chip DLP isn't for you. An overly bright image of any technology can be made to look worse with SD material (in particular) because it makes artifacts more visible (3 chip DLP for example). Ideally you should try and see the different technologies yourself, because some people see motion smearing on LCoS more than others for example, so it may be that you see something you don't like whereas others may not or vice versa. Set up is also very important, so setting simple things like the black and white levels correctly (brightness and contrast) can make a big difference.

I've seen really good projectors set up poorly or in poor environments and cheaper 'lesser' projectors look better because some attention has been made to the set up. Buying a good or 'better' projector is not necessarily going to guarantee a good image, but if you see one you might be able to make a better buying decision based on what your image preferences are. Some people are anti a particular technology so will advise you to buy what they own, so to make sure you get something you like and not what somebody else likes, get some demos.

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post #25 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Dark scenes are where high on/off CR tends to dominate, but it depends on things like whether a DI is being used and small bright things in a dark scene have to be reduced because of that.

Unless I am mistaken, the 1080ub has a *higher* on/off CR. Look at this side by side I took with the w5000 on the left and the 1080ub on the right. I projected the images so that the brighter area would be split. Both images are being projected on the screen at the same time from the same source.




I got similar results with DI on/off. Here they on. The 1080UB is in 'natural' mode with lamp set to 'high'. The W5000 is in cinema mode with the manual iris set to zero. A simple calibration was done on both.

I could use the brighter settings on the epson...but the images looked washed out. I could never reproduce the 'contrasty punch' that I get with the benQ...even at its lowest brightness setting with the DI and manual iris clamped down.

Whatever you want to call it...it sure seems like a difference in contrast to me.
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post #26 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

Unless I am mistaken, the 1080ub has a *higher* on/off CR.

I believe the 1080UB was sold as the TW2000 in Europe and I looked at the www.cine4home.de site to see what they got for the TW2000. I see around 3000:1 native on/off CR for most modes by their measurements. I'm not sure what the W5000 does with the iris off.
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Look at this side by side I took with the w5000 on the left and the 1080ub on the right. I projected the images so that the brighter area would be split. Both images are being projected on the screen at the same time from the same source.

For that first one the left half of the image itself is so much brighter than the right half that I don't think I could tell much from here. Sometimes I shoot things so that both projectors are showing the same half of the image.

For the 2nd one it looks like there is quite a difference in how they are coming out of black, with the BenQ coming out much faster. But I'm not sure what the original image is like (how much shadow detail there is on each side in the source) and I'm also looking at it on an LCD monitor in a bright environment.
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Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

Whatever you want to call it...it sure seems like a difference in contrast to me.

It could be a difference in small area contrast also, where ANSI CR is a difference in large area contrast.

If you set the gammas to the same between 2 projectors I would expect on/off CR to have a pretty good impact in that 2nd image.

If ANSI CR was what was shining in those images then they shouldn't shine in a room that kills ANSI CR. I'm not saying ANSI CR isn't a factor, but in darker scenes on/off CR will tend to dominate what happens if other things are equal (keeping in mind that gamma differences can dominate too). And small area contrast like MTF at full resolution or close to full resolution can play a part too.

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post #27 of 59 Old 01-21-2009, 05:13 PM
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IIRC the W5000 is ~1000:1 static. 5,000:1 DI pj.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post12546626
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post #28 of 59 Old 01-22-2009, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

For that first one the left half of the image itself is so much brighter than the right half that I don't think I could tell much from here. Sometimes I shoot things so that both projectors are showing the same half of the image.

I projected the images in such a way so that the brighter blue area would be split along with the long ship (which is dark with some some lights on it). If I split it down the middle, it would make for no relative comparison as the composition is different. Just concentrate on the area near the split where the scene just to the left and just to the right are similar.

Quote:


For the 2nd one it looks like there is quite a difference in how they are coming out of black, with the BenQ coming out much faster. But I'm not sure what the original image is like (how much shadow detail there is on each side in the source) and I'm also looking at it on an LCD monitor in a bright environment.

Whatever the reason, the epson looks flat across the board...not only in these comparisons. I tried adjusting gamma, etc...these were the optimal settings I could get for contrast on the epson without crush.

Quote:


If you set the gammas to the same between 2 projectors I would expect on/off CR to have a pretty good impact in that 2nd image.

That was already done....assuming the gamma settings in the menu are true. In fact, I tried EVERYTHING to improve contrast on the epson.

Maybe I am going out on a limb here...but sometimes isn't a spade just a spade? The W5000 seems to simply have more contrast in these scenes...maybe because DLP tech has better contrast numbers for this kind of thing?

Tweaking the settings is worthwhile...but it can only get you so far.
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post #29 of 59 Old 01-22-2009, 07:46 AM
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These on/off vs ansi threads remind me of the story of the blind men and the elephant.

I don't think that we are asking the right questions and we are all apparently seeing different things to start with.

What is intrascene contrast? In a given scene there are an infinite number of points from which contrast can be measured. As Cine4Home demonstrated, in a given scene, a dlp might have better contrast if certain points are measured but a LCOS machine might have better contrast if other points are measured. Which of those points are the ones that are necessary for an image to pop? All existing technologies have some weakness and will be beaten in some kinds of scenes by another technology.

I hear people say that the RS20 doesn't have great intraimage contrast and I don't know what to think because I see an image that leaps off the screen with most kinds of material. I don't doubt people are honestly reporting what they are seeing but I really wonder what factors are at work (room conditions, calibration, etc.) It is the very rare scene that I look at and say "this one can be improved on."

We engage in discussions about this stuff like there is some kind of empirically correct answer. Sorry to say that there isn't any.

Motion issues are different. Some technologies are just better than others.

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post #30 of 59 Old 01-22-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

These on/off vs ansi threads remind me of the story of the blind men and the elephant.

The trouble I have with this is that unlike the elephant, contrast in a scene is hardly as multifaceted as the elephant.

It also reminds me of discussions I have had with box store sales reps about speaker wire (or even better: HDMI cables) where there is no end to the obfuscation around such a simple science.

It shouldn't be too hard to understand that a PJ that outputs light from darkest to lightest areas in a scene with a light output ratio of 1:1000 against another where the levels are 1:100 for the same scene...assuming the same gamma curve...are going to have more contrast...by definition...for the projector with the greater range. My classroom DLP, for example, is much brighter than my W5000, yet due to poor black levels the contrast with that projector is far worse. That is probably the most important difference between them for watching movies.

The rest, in my mind, is just quibbling. I can't imagine anyone with any credibility claiming that the images on the left from my samples (above) don't have generally more contrast (that is, a greater difference in light ouput in brightest levels in the scene vs darkest levels)...or that the scene on the right has more 'pop' (remembering that the camera exposures actually don't capture the DR of the PJ).

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It is the very rare scene that I look at and say "this one can be improved on."

Sure, but when you do a side-by-side I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to decide which one you like better....then you just might discover that something can be improved upon where you once thought otherwise.

Deciding which projector you like is one thing...and thats always very subjective. Deciding which one has (at least generally) better contrast numbers in a given scene shouldn't be this complex guys.

Quote:


Motion issues are different. Some technologies are just better than others.

Actually I would argue that the motion issues are highly subjective (from a perceptual standpoint). In my experience its much easier to get agreement on 'Pop', and 'Wow', and percieved contrast then it is to get agreement on smearing, RBE, etc.
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