Planar 8150 follow up impressions - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Kris, weren't you a member of the triumvirate (with Tryg and Darin, I believe) that tested hi ANSI CR (the Sharp 20000 I think) with lower but high o/f CR units (one of the JVC's I think), and concluded that high ANSI CR was not nearly so important as o/f?

We got together to see if we could spot some differences with the two projectors. My RS2 kept winning though! With the Planar we definitely noticed improvements with screen comparisons between the 8150 and the RS20 with mixed material that leaned more toward ANSI than on/off. But I wouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill, both are REALLY strong projectors!

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Old 04-21-2009, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

I have been interested in the Planar because it has the DI which can really improve the black levels and decrease dithering artifacts in a single chip DLP projector. if I remember it also has an Osram unishape lamp which can improve the color depth

Am I correct in that it does not have an adjustable Iris and the zoom is manual

I noticed some of the early reviews of this projector were luke warm where yours was enthusiastic. Not negative but not overwhelming positive. This surprised me because on paper the Planar looks like a wonderful projector

any explanations.

In my review I stated that with a few tweaks I would be more than happy to use this projector in my setup. Well Planar delivered. They fixed the clipping issue and tightened up the contrast performance. I had a VERY early unit for the review and Planar was still looking at some performance mods before consumer roll out. One of which was a tighter fixed iris in the lens.

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Old 04-21-2009, 05:47 PM
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Noah. Darin posted about the 8150 near the end of one of the Marantz threads, He sold his JVC and kept the Planar. He posted reasons of sort. Nothing major in favor of one or the other. Each one does somethings better than the other. You can't have too many projectors lying around. They depreciate quickly. many find one they like, convince themselves its the best for the money, and sell it with 2 years. I think its the new JVC every two years club. Until we get a new source of projector illumination, thinks are unlikely to change very drastically. Projectors are in a evolutionary phase right know with downward price pressures forcing design compromises and keeping us wishing for the next machine which will incorporate the best of the competition. You know what I mean.

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Old 04-21-2009, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

That is correct. The Planar is delivering better contrast performance for both on/off and ANSI and can be dialed in far better. It is also a bit sharper than my RS2 was.

The RS20 seems to be more in line with the Planar though. Its absolute blacks are a bit better but it still falls short in ANSI. I like Planar's interface and tweakability a tad more than the RS20 but the two are very similar in overall image performance to my eye. Each has its advantages with different material so it would be a personal taste choice in the end I think. Personally, I would lean toward the Planar, but completely understand the praise for the RS20 right now.

Since you stumbled directly into my own internal debate (but with the advantage of having seen both). I've currently got a W5000 that I'm looking at replacing. On balance I love it. Colors are vivid but not unbelievable. Mid to bright scenes look awesome. It's very sharp.

But (aside from the issues with my lemon) there are a few things that have always bugged me:
  • Black level is somewhat horrible without clamping the manual iris all the way down and turning Dynamic Black on. And even then it's only passable.
  • Dynamic Black's gamma changes cause colors to change (making it more obvious)
  • DB causes brightness compression that on some content (admittedly usually only OSDs and (sub)title type things) that can be somewhat annoying
  • Dark scenes often seem to be murky rather than falling off into black. I'm not sure if that's crushed shadow detail or just poor black level making black murky

Anyway, I'm looking for a replacement, and RS20 and 8150 seem to be about the only machines that are likely to satisfy me that I have a chance of affording. So I keep running around in circles between them. I wonder if the DB on the 8150 will have similar noticeable artifacts as on my W5000, if the black level be "good enough", or will it be everything I'd hoped my W5000 was going to be.

And the RS20, will the colors bother me, and will I miss the DLP "magic" (high "ANSI").

I know you can't answer for me, but any thoughts on the two units knowing what I know bothers me at the moment? Oh, and can the 8150 do both V-stretch and H-squeeze on HD sources (ie support a fixed anamorphic lens)?

Thanks

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Old 04-21-2009, 05:55 PM
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Chris. By tighter, you mean, I assume, a smaller opening size for the fixed iris.

Note well kiddies, many lenses have both fixed irises as well as adjustable irises and/or dynamic irises.


Several manufacturers use identical lenses but have the fixed iris set differently than a competitor. The smaller the fixed iris opening the better the blacks and contrast but the less ultimate light output. The manufacturer says OK, I'll give up some lumens to boast the contrast and keep the reviewer happy. Come on, make the iris a smidge smaller and we will beat the 15,000 of the competitor with 17,000 of our own.

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Old 04-21-2009, 06:22 PM
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stanger89,

Kris Deering states earlier that he's actually getting better On/Off contrast from the Planar (over the JVC RS2 I presume) which amazes me. If you get that type of contrast performance along with the much higher ANSI and sharper image it seems almost a no-brainer to go with the Planar if you like the DLP look.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Noah. Darin posted about the 8150 near the end of one of the Marantz threads, He sold his JVC and kept the Planar. He posted reasons of sort. Nothing major in favor of one or the other. Each one does somethings better than the other. You can't have too many projectors lying around. They depreciate quickly. many find one they like, convince themselves its the best for the money, and sell it with 2 years. I think its the new JVC every two years club. Until we get a new source of projector illumination, thinks are unlikely to change very drastically. Projectors are in a evolutionary phase right know with downward price pressures forcing design compromises and keeping us wishing for the next machine which will incorporate the best of the competition. You know what I mean.

Actually Darin sold his Sharp 20K. He still owns both the Planar and JVC. He likes both but leans a bit toward the JVC. As most of you know already Darin has a thing for contrast

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Old 04-21-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Since you stumbled directly into my own internal debate (but with the advantage of having seen both). I've currently got a W5000 that I'm looking at replacing. On balance I love it. Colors are vivid but not unbelievable. Mid to bright scenes look awesome. It's very sharp.

But (aside from the issues with my lemon) there are a few things that have always bugged me:
  • Black level is somewhat horrible without clamping the manual iris all the way down and turning Dynamic Black on. And even then it's only passable.
  • Dynamic Black's gamma changes cause colors to change (making it more obvious)
  • DB causes brightness compression that on some content (admittedly usually only OSDs and (sub)title type things) that can be somewhat annoying
  • Dark scenes often seem to be murky rather than falling off into black. I'm not sure if that's crushed shadow detail or just poor black level making black murky

Anyway, I'm looking for a replacement, and RS20 and 8150 seem to be about the only machines that are likely to satisfy me that I have a chance of affording. So I keep running around in circles between them. I wonder if the DB on the 8150 will have similar noticeable artifacts as on my W5000, if the black level be "good enough", or will it be everything I'd hoped my W5000 was going to be.

And the RS20, will the colors bother me, and will I miss the DLP "magic" (high "ANSI").

I know you can't answer for me, but any thoughts on the two units knowing what I know bothers me at the moment? Oh, and can the 8150 do both V-stretch and H-squeeze on HD sources (ie support a fixed anamorphic lens)?

Thanks

BenQ's implementation of DB was IMHO pretty bad. Especially if you didn't take A LOT of time figuring out which setting to use with the manual iris on top of it. The W10K was far better in this regard. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 8150 at all in this regard, one of the best implementations of dynamic contrast that I've seen yet.

The RS20 can provide very good color rendition with the THX mode. Sure it isn't dead nuts accurate, but it doesn't distract by any means. Couple that with a good grayscale/color balance calibration and you should be fine. Certainly not anything to complain much about unless you are going for near perfection.

I believe the Planar supports anamorphic scaling for CIH setups but I am not positive. I don't use it so I forgot if it is there!

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Old 04-21-2009, 07:25 PM
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"And the RS20, will the colors bother me, and will I miss the DLP "magic" (high "ANSI")."
stanger89

If you really like the pop magic of the dlp you'll love ths 8150. I've had the W5000, the RS10 and the 8150 at my home for calibration and for me the 8150 is the projector I would like to have. I have not calibrated the RS20, I don't know how it compares with the 8150.

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:19 PM
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In a few more days, JVC will be releasing their user dowmloadable revised CMS (color management system). This will enable the HD750\\RS20 to achieve perfect colorimetry.

Assuming setting the manual iris on the JVC for equivalent light out put of the 8150 or close to it, the on\\off CR of the two machines will be close. The 8150 however uses a DI to achieve what the RS20 achieves natively.

The 8150 will have a significantly higher ANSI CR than the JVC, will have no misconvergence being a single chip machine, has a better processor, and a somewhat sharper lens.


They are both good machines. No possibility or seeing rainbows with the JVC because no color wheel and no DI artifacts. If your seing a DI artifact on occasion is going to spoil your use of a machine, don`t buy a DI machine. Personally I think all machines should provide the option of switching on a well implemented DI. Occasional artifacts be damned, the benefits of a DI are substantial.


Face it. The on\\off of all bulb projectors suck. 30,000 is no great shakes. We have a long long way to go in the on\\off CR department.It would be nice to have 30,000 on\\off native, increasable to say 75,000 by a DI. And even that would not be high enough.

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

BenQ's implementation of DB was IMHO pretty bad. Especially if you didn't take A LOT of time figuring out which setting to use with the manual iris on top of it. The W10K was far better in this regard. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 8150 at all in this regard, one of the best implementations of dynamic contrast that I've seen yet.

Kris:

How would you say the BenQ W20000 compares to the 8150 in regards to black level...and for that matter DB?

I appreciate everyone's insight and contribution to this thread...it's been a fun read.

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Didn't like the W20000 nearly as much as the 8150. Honestly, two different leagues. BenQ took a step back with the 20K compared to the 10K IMHO when it comes to image quality. Their implementation of DB and their iris setup needs a lot of work.

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

BenQ's implementation of DB was IMHO pretty bad. Especially if you didn't take A LOT of time figuring out which setting to use with the manual iris on top of it. The W10K was far better in this regard. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 8150 at all in this regard, one of the best implementations of dynamic contrast that I've seen yet.

Yeah, it's more a question of if I could ever be really satisfied with a DI.

Quote:


The RS20 can provide very good color rendition with the THX mode. Sure it isn't dead nuts accurate, but it doesn't distract by any means. Couple that with a good grayscale/color balance calibration and you should be fine. Certainly not anything to complain much about unless you are going for near perfection.

I believe the Planar supports anamorphic scaling for CIH setups but I am not positive. I don't use it so I forgot if it is there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico View Post

"And the RS20, will the colors bother me, and will I miss the DLP "magic" (high "ANSI")."
stanger89

If you really like the pop magic of the dlp you'll love ths 8150. I've had the W5000, the RS10 and the 8150 at my home for calibration and for me the 8150 is the projector I would like to have. I have not calibrated the RS20, I don't know how it compares with the 8150.

Federico

Oh, I'm sure I'd like it, only question is if I'd still find myself wanting (something that could be had on another machine).

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Didn't like the W20000 nearly as much as the 8150. Honestly, two different leagues. BenQ took a step back with the 20K compared to the 10K IMHO when it comes to image quality. Their implementation of DB and their iris setup needs a lot of work.

So, just in terms of raw On/Off contrast, how would they compare? Just trying to get a feel where the 8150 would be relative. The W5000 was somewhat of a disappointment in that regard. My IN76 was OK, I remember going in that I was hoping a 1080p DMD + DB would be far better. Unfortunately I drew the same conclusion you did, that BenQ took a rather significant step back when they added DB.

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Old 04-21-2009, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Actually Darin sold his Sharp 20K. He still owns both the Planar and JVC. He likes both but leans a bit toward the JVC. As most of you know already Darin has a thing for contrast

If my theory is correct, Planars are tricky in terms of contrast because it depends on the software version. According to what I've read at cine4home.de pd8130 has ~7k on/off and pd8150 ~10k on/off with the original software - which is what my pd8130 has even though obtained quite recently. The italian projector forum thread has a few posts suggesting that installing the latest software improves the contrast and black level, and they measured pd8130 at around 11k - also said it has similar contrast and blacks to jvc rs10. That would explain how Tryg got 17k on pd8150 and Darin's preference for jvc if he has the old software.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:09 PM
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Can anyone suggest an online source for the PD8150. I am in Vancouver Canada but will buy in the US and import myself if necessary. Thanks in advance for any tips.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:33 PM
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AVS is going to start selling them again if it hasn't already. Other than that I don't know of any - you might have to get an american friend to ship you one.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:42 AM
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Quote:


Originally Posted by Stranger89
Oh, I'm sure I'd like it, only question is if I'd still find myself wanting (something that could be had on another machine).

Yes, you will want adjustable CMS like in the W5000, and I would like to have a better on off contrast without using DI or BC like the contrast (5000:1) in another model from Planar, PD7150.
I would like to ask to Bob Williams from Planar if it would be better to have a model like the 7150 with a 1080P dlp chip and them add the DI and de BC with the option to turn them off or on.
But back to the question of what projector to buy. I would say the PD8150 at this moment.

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Old 04-22-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carskadon View Post

I have sent the info to our VP of sales.

It'll likely be too late for me if it's eventually sorted, but just to give you an idea the RRP of the JVC RS20 (HD750) in Australia is $9,499 seen here

As mentioned by NetworkAV the 8150 in Aus is apparently $17,500.

Conversely in the US the RRP of the RS20 is $7,499 (from memory) and the 8150 is $7000. Hence my point.

This head in the sand mentality might have cut it pre financial crisis, but it's surely not the best business model right now. Don't these guys watch the news??
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CADOBHuK View Post

If my theory is correct, Planars are tricky in terms of contrast because it depends on the software version. According to what I've read at cine4home.de pd8130 has ~7k on/off and pd8150 ~10k on/off with the original software - which is what my pd8130 has even though obtained quite recently. The italian projector forum thread has a few posts suggesting that installing the latest software improves the contrast and black level, and they measured pd8130 at around 11k - also said it has similar contrast and blacks to jvc rs10. That would explain how Tryg got 17k on pd8150 and Darin's preference for jvc if he has the old software.

Tryg was looking at mine. Darin's 8150 has the latest firmware as well. He got his a week after I got mine.

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Old 04-22-2009, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federico View Post

Yes, you will want adjustable CMS like in the W5000, and I would like to have a better on off contrast without using DI or BC like the contrast (5000:1) in another model from Planar, PD7150.
I would like to ask to Bob Williams from Planar if it would be better to have a model like the 7150 with a 1080P dlp chip and them add the DI and de BC with the option to turn them off or on.
But back to the question of what projector to buy. I would say the PD8150 at this moment.

Federico

The 8150 has a full CMS system that is the same CCA system that BenQ and Samsung use. Right now it is not available for consumer use but I've heard considerations are being made as to whether to open it up at some point to consumers.

The 8150's BC and DI can both be turned on or off in the normal menus.

Another thing on the CMS, the 8150 is calibrated before shipment and it is EXTREMELLY close out of the box if not dead on. So unless one wants to custom gamut, you shouldn't need to mess with the CMS much if at all. The 8150 allows you to pick your color gamut and color decoding to taste (709, 601, SMPTE C, Native).

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Old 04-22-2009, 09:35 AM
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And I assume the full CMS is not available to dealers either? In the playing I have done so far, the colors look very accurateto my trained eye. Setting the contrat and brightness from the factory presets using the sSpears disc with DI turned off dimned things down a bit. Even with DI on, the black level appears fairly high. Hand puppets are dramatically darker than a 0 ire screen. But no bulb projector fairs very well with a hand puppet comparison but the planar is bested on this test by the JVC. I still prefer the planar. In normal viewing, the blacks are just fine.

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Old 04-22-2009, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know of a single digital projector that holds up well to a puppet test. I agree that the absolute blacks on the JVC are better though, but not by the amount I would suspect given their contrast ratio differences. But I would be more than happy to see improvements in contrast from ALL manufacturers.

The CMS is not available to dealers yet either. The only way to use it without a CL-200 right now is a tedius manual input method that is not very user friendly. I imagine if Planar decides to release the CMS to consumer/calibrator use they will probably try and refine their interface.

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Old 04-22-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I agree that the absolute blacks on the JVC are better though, but not by the amount I would suspect given their contrast ratio differences.

We are at a point where both technologies are visually very close.
The higher ANSI from DLP though it has lower on/off broadens the perceived overall contrast and helps to bring out shadow detail at the lower end.
Curious how LED will compare once it arrives and enters its prime.






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Old 04-22-2009, 12:07 PM
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OK, it's probably been beaten to death, but is the DMD the only difference between the 8130 and the 8150? Apparently the 8150 is individually calibrated coming out of the factory, does the 8130 get the same treatment?

Anyone compared the 30 and the 50, could you tell them apart without looking at the label? I'm getting rather determined to get a new machine, but depending on circumstances the 50 may or may not be possible but I think the 30 definitely is.

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Old 04-22-2009, 12:20 PM
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See post 81 this thread by Brian. The higher on/off is nice is you have a light controlled dark walled room. The present price different at MSRP is only $1000, The 8150 list for $7000 while the 8130 lists for $6000. To me, the difference in on/off CR is worth it.

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Old 04-22-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

To me, the difference in on/off CR is worth it.

Speaking of black level:

Mark coming from CRT do you miss it ( CRT ) or do you feel digital is getting close enough and their benefits make up for what you left behind with CRT.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:12 PM
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8130 is no slouch though, if it has rs10-like contrast and should still be a big upgrade over w5000 or w20000.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Another thing on the CMS, the 8150 is calibrated before shipment and it is EXTREMELLY close out of the box if not dead on. So unless one wants to custom gamut, you shouldn't need to mess with the CMS much if at all. The 8150 allows you to pick your color gamut and color decoding to taste (709, 601, SMPTE C, Native).

But with usage and bulb aging the color balance changes, doesnt it? So wouldn't it still require a re-calibration after a certain period?
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:29 PM
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The black ref level and on/off of the best digitals is not even close to my CRT FP. Its laughable. But I don't miss it at all. The digitals are sharper, the ANSI is higher, the machines are brighter. A lot less hassels and I don't have to continually reconverge it yada yada. My wife has to press one button. I could say morebut you get the idea. Besides I watch mostly sports.

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Old 04-22-2009, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

See post 81 this thread by Brian.

Thanks, guess I did read that earlier.

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The higher on/off is nice is you have a light controlled dark walled room.

Which I do have

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The present price different at MSRP is only $1000, The 8150 list for $7000 while the 8130 lists for $6000. To me, the difference in on/off CR is worth it.

Yeah, I was thinking it was $2k when I asked, I pretty much agree that a $1k difference isn't enough to make it worth stepping down. Not in this price range.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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