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post #61 of 2434 Old 07-30-2009, 06:15 PM
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W5000 uses philips vidi lamp.
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post #62 of 2434 Old 07-30-2009, 06:31 PM
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I just may have to give one of these a try. The price is right. I'm currently using a W10000 and like the sharpness a lot. I'm curious to see how far this steps up over the 10000.
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post #63 of 2434 Old 07-31-2009, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

W5000 uses philips vidi lamp.

it does ?
the SIM2 and Marantz latest use a UNIPATH technology that gives this "punch" that was so absent of most mono dlp before.
my SIM2 D80E with just 165w is very punchy illuminating my 171" wide scope screen (it sits close though at 550cm +/-. no secret: the closer the brigther).
it's brither than the JVCs.
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post #64 of 2434 Old 07-31-2009, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

The MSRP on the 30000 is expected to be $7K, which means it will street for about half a few months after it comes out, but it is not clear when it will be out. The MSRP on the 6000 is substantially less (less than $3K, and closer to $2K I think, and it seems to be closer to production than its big brother (i.e. it will probably be coming out sometime in the near future).

I don't know much about US pricing, but I don't think you should expect the same ratio between list price and street pricing on the new models, as on the old ones, the W6000 won't be half the street price of W5000. In Europe W6000 will street for a bit higher than the current W5000 price. I think the lower list price just reflects a change in BenQ's list pricing policy.

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post #65 of 2434 Old 07-31-2009, 01:06 PM
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A few retailers have tried making the MSRPs stick...Circuit City, CompUSA, etc (which all went out of business)...that stuff doesn't work over here. Most Americans want the absolute best for the absolute cheapest (look at Costco, Sams, Ross, TJMax, etc) and manufacturers have been giving in for so long that we expect it...even demand it, now.
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post #66 of 2434 Old 07-31-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

A few retailers have tried making the MSRPs stick...Circuit City, CompUSA, etc (which all went out of business)...that stuff doesn't work over here. Most Americans want the absolute best for the absolute cheapest (look at Costco, Sams, Ross, TJMax, etc) and manufacturers have been giving in for so long that we expect it...even demand it, now.

not just Americans
in Europe too customers (most) want everything at lowest price
methinks this is detrimental to the whole economy
delocalisation, lowest prices all the time: cars business blowing up, banks imploding, real estate crashing
it's like interest rates: you can't have good returns on deposits while enjoying low mortgage rates: either both are low or high...

back to the W6000: i hope Benq improved the micro constant noise which was W5000 big default.
also i can see a huge different in texture, colorimetry, depth between my SIM2 D80E and a W5000 i had before. no wonder the price diff. you can see it
so i hope the W6000 is bright, good depth, lower video noise.
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post #67 of 2434 Old 07-31-2009, 11:53 PM
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HI all,

Looks like one of the forum sponsors has this in stock, anyone place any orders yet?

Looking forward to some real world feedback.
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post #68 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 12:19 AM
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I replaced my w5000 lamp and im pretty sure it said philips vidi on it.

http://www.benq-eu.com/products/Projector/?product=919
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post #69 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

not just Americans
in Europe too customers (most) want everything at lowest price
methinks this is detrimental to the whole economy
delocalisation, lowest prices all the time: cars business blowing up, banks imploding, real estate crashing
it's like interest rates: you can't have good returns on deposits while enjoying low mortgage rates: either both are low or high...

back to the W6000: i hope Benq improved the micro constant noise which was W5000 big default.
also i can see a huge different in texture, colorimetry, depth between my SIM2 D80E and a W5000 i had before. no wonder the price diff. you can see it
so i hope the W6000 is bright, good depth, lower video noise.


Hmmm colorimetry was better? W5000 has full cca for perfect color calibration. Also noise was not bad in later firmware versions, im guessing you sold it before the firmware updates.


Also calibrated contrast was the same for on/off between the two units, but thats with dynamic iris, and lower lumens. Im guessing manual iris had to be fully closed when I seen the comparison. The w5000 can go brighter then the D80E without brilliant color its around 650 lumens, compared to the d80 500 and some i seen measured when i compared the units, but again im sure the d80e has better blacks at that level of lumens then the w5000.

The W6000 does not need more lumens for us home theater users, it needs better black level while keeping lumens around the 600-700 mark. Theres to much of a trade off between blacks and brightness with the w5000 at the moment.

Colors, sharpness, and texture im very pleased with. I dont think anyone has issues with brightness when manual iris is fully opened, as its around 650 mark, its the trade off of black levels. Where as the d80e can keep good brightness, with better blacks.
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post #70 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

HI all,

Looks like one of the forum sponsors has this in stock, anyone place any orders yet?

Looking forward to some real world feedback.

I checked with the sponsor you're talking about. They said even though it is on their website. It's not in stock yet. They expect it to be in stock in a week.
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post #71 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Hmmm colorimetry was better? W5000 has full cca for perfect color calibration. Also noise was not bad in later firmware versions, im guessing you sold it before the firmware updates.


Also calibrated contrast was the same for on/off between the two units, but thats with dynamic iris, and lower lumens. Im guessing manual iris had to be fully closed when I seen the comparison. The w5000 can go brighter then the D80E without brilliant color its around 650 lumens, compared to the d80 500 and some i seen measured when i compared the units, but again im sure the d80e has better blacks at that level of lumens then the w5000.

The W6000 does not need more lumens for us home theater users, it needs better black level while keeping lumens around the 600-700 mark. Theres to much of a trade off between blacks and brightness with the w5000 at the moment.

Colors, sharpness, and texture im very pleased with. I dont think anyone has issues with brightness when manual iris is fully opened, as its around 650 mark, its the trade off of black levels. Where as the d80e can keep good brightness, with better blacks.


This is true with my W10000 as well. They only thing missing from it is today's standard for black level. I'm sure the 50,000:1 spec is grossly exaggerated. If it is half of that though it will put it in the range of a select few for black level.
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post #72 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhjr34 View Post

If it is half of that though it will put it in the range of a select few for black level.

And what makes us think it will even beat the W5000? What did they do to it (vs the W5000) other than make it brighter?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #73 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And what makes us think it will even beat the W5000? What did they do to it (vs the W5000) other than make it brighter?

I'm just going on the specs. We know it's not going to do 50K:1. I doubt they'd only make the W6000 a brighter W5000. I mean that isn't exactly a fault of the W5000. I'm sure they will try to improve the black level performance though. There are too many competitors out there in LCD and LCOS getting the black level glory. I'm guessing they are shooting to match up with something in the Panasonic AE3000 niche. Seems the price demographic is similar based on the forum sponsor's price. A DLP with a more aggressive black level, decent zoom range and anamorphic lens support sounds awfully good to me.
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post #74 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 10:09 AM
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It will be interesting to see, but I'm not optimistic. Had they kept the same lamp/brightness spec and claimed 50k:1, I'd be optimistic for better CR, but with the massive lamp they stuck in that thing and the crazy brightness they're advertising, I just don't see it.

I think that was one of the problems with the W5000, they changed the light engine from the W9000/W10000 to let more light through and it hurt the CR.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #75 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 02:42 PM
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I like a bright projector, I am used to panasonic plasma which is very bright, and punchy. When I got my new bulb I almost found the lamp to bright. I think for the first 150 hours I had the iris almost fully closed. I never thought I would say that. I like the unit iris at 4 and on normal lamp, and after a few hundred hours the brightness right now is perfect, and many on this forum would probably find it to bright in a dark room. Around 650-700 lumens is as bright as i want to go for an average size screen, anymore and its to bright and overwhelming the picture, where it begins to loose depth. To many lumens also seem to show artifacts easier. After coming from two dim projectors which only did about 250-300 lumens, i thought i needed a 3 chip to get brightness i want, but imo after the 5000, their is a point where there is to many lumens in a dark room.

Now i think this is clearly switching markets, they even said its not targeted toward home theaters i think earlier in this thread. I doubt you will see better blacks then the w5000 or contrast, unless they allow you to dial down the lumens, even then i dont know. It seems there targeting massive screens in places with ambient light, perhaps bars, or homes with no light control or confrence rooms.


I think their led is what there targeting for home theater.


Actually looking back, post 26 tells us this is not meant for home theater, but is for rooms with ambient light.
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post #76 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

The W6000 does not need more lumens for us home theater users, it needs better black level while keeping lumens around the 600-700 mark. Theres to much of a trade off between blacks and brightness with the w5000 at the moment.

Colors, sharpness, and texture im very pleased with. I dont think anyone has issues with brightness when manual iris is fully opened, as its around 650 mark, its the trade off of black levels. Where as the d80e can keep good brightness, with better blacks.

Sort of bold statements that you are certainly entitled to as your opinion but to state that "I dont think anyone has issues with brightness when manual iris is fully opened" is speaking for others. I for one have big issues with brightness as 650 lumens will fall to <400 lumens when the bulb ages which is only adequate brightness for the average 100"-120" in screen in a fully light controlled room. I happen to have a 12' wide scope screen and I need at least around 800 lumens after bulb dimming meaning I need around 1500 lumens when the bulb is new.

My opinion here is that the majority of projectors out there cater to your needs so you have many options so don't assume everyone has the same needs as you.

Honestly what I believe BenQ is trying to do is compete with projectors like the epson LCDs where they have a far greater range of brightness that can be used well with different viewing scenarios. So we have already seen that this projector will have a few different modes including cinema with fewer lumens and I am sure better black levels vs. brighter modes for watching HD video material with some ambient light at the expense of black levels but still possibly good on/off CR. It will be interesting to see how this range of brightness is accomplished as that will drive how useful it will be for my needs. DLPs typically are able to maintain better color balance than LCDs when the brightness is pumped up. This is why the Epson 6100 or 6500s will not work for me as the color is way out of balance at its high lumens making it fine for watching HD sports with some lights on with some buddies but terrible for watching film based material in a light controlled room. So if this can produce 1500 lumens with good color balance at the cost of black levels that is fine as I alway have to make that sacrifice to have a big screen.

I look forward to the reviews as my current IN83 may have the lumens but the 36% fixed offset causes me a lot of grief as well as the highly recessed optics for my anamorphic lens. The IN83 also has terrible brightness uniformity.
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post #77 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 02:57 PM
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I think it's trying to be two different things. It does have a movie mode with 1100 lumens which will truthfully probably be closer to the 700 range when calibrated. That puts it right near the RS-1 and HW10 for performance. I'm not sure how we can say it's not geared for Home Theater when it advertises compatibility for 2.35 screens. That's definitely a screen for HT and not your typical conference room presentation.

I do agree that the W30000 is going to be their big dog in the lineup for Home Theater. I'm sure that is going to be the one to watch of the two.
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post #78 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rlhjr34 View Post

I do agree that the W30000 is going to be their big dog in the lineup for Home Theater. I'm sure that is going to be the one to watch of the two.

Yes the LED machines will be interesting to watch but not sure where that will fall in pricing and they will have limited lumens for smaller screens. So it will only be interesting to me....I think I really need laser projectors....
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post #79 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhjr34 View Post

I'm not sure how we can say it's not geared for Home Theater when it advertises compatibility for 2.35 screens.

Well the W5000 had somewhat mediocre CR performance. The W6000 is rated twice as bright (100% brighter) with only a 40% brighter lamp.

That doesn't add up, how are they getting the extra Lumens? It's pretty much got to be a less restrictive light path, white segments, or brilliantcolor with secondary segments.

None of which are good for picture quality/CR. We say it's not targeted for HT because it appears they've sacrificed PQ for Lumens, something that's done in business-targeted machines.

Compare to the IN83 which has a larger lamp (300W) than the W6000 yet isn't as bright, because it's HT targeted, meaning somewhat restrictive light path, no white segments and (I think) no secondaries on the wheel, all of which are good for PQ/CR).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dangc View Post

Yes the LED machines will be interesting to watch but not sure where that will fall in pricing and they will have limited lumens for smaller screens.

But remember even if an LED projector is "only" 600-700 Lumens, it's essentially that bright forever, so buying a 600-700 Lumen LED machine is like buying a 1200-1500Lumen lamped machine once you account for lamp dimming.

You can go pretty big with an RS20 or Planar 8150 or W5000 when they're new, it's after a few hundred hours when their brightness drops that it becomes a problem.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #80 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 08:29 PM
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stanger89:

My Panny 200 with 747 hours on the lamp, isn't bright enough for me in normal mode (159" white wall, in a true batcave).

I called the BenQ store yesterday. They said that they wouldn't get the W6000 in until early September.

If the W6000 had been in stock, I would have ordered one from them. I called them because I need a 30 day return policy, with no re-stocking fee. Four hours isn't enough time to test a projector in my room and on my screen, before spending my $$$$.

I had a W5000 which was from the very first shipment that came into the country. I returned it to the BenQ store (26 days of testing), due to the projector's image noise.

Loved the sharpness and pop with BC.
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post #81 of 2434 Old 08-01-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

stanger89:

My Panny 200 with 747 hours on the lamp, isn't bright enough for me in normal mode (159" white wall, in a true batcave).

I think you're going to have trouble finding anything that will light something that size with approximately unity gain like you've got.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #82 of 2434 Old 08-02-2009, 01:03 PM
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It would be nice if the W6000 lives up to its 50k:1 on/off CR spec, but the Sharp 15k had some nice specs like 30k:1 on/off CR and doesn't seem to have lived up to them. The Panasonic AE3000 is only about 2k:1 native on/off CR and 6k:1 dynamic on/off CR in anything but the Dynamic mode with messed up colors and its higher rated spec is only after putting up a black (or maybe just very dark) scene and waiting for about 12 seconds for things to slowly dim, but according to projectorcentral.com the AE3000 looked like it had better blacks than the Sharp 15k overall. I have an AE3000 and as far as blacks overall I don't think it touches the JVC RS20 or Planar 8150.

I thought BenQ did some really nice stuff with the 10k, but it seems like they kind of went backwards as far as how they did implementing things overall for CR capability with the 5k and 20k. Maybe they can get back to at least where I thought they were as far as being up to speed on advancements back with the 10k. It seems likely that the W6000 will use a new .65" chip (like in the Sharp 15k and Optoma 8200) instead of the .95" chips I assume the 5k and 20k had. That could make things a little less sharp and maybe that alone would reduce some of the image noise people saw with the 5k.

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post #83 of 2434 Old 08-02-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhjr34 View Post

I'm currently using a W10000 and like the sharpness a lot. I'm curious to see how far this steps up over the 10000.

I remember the 10k I saw being very sharp. Looked like it had a nice lens and it also had the .95" chips that have been standard for these 1080p DLPs until just recently. I think this 6k is probably using the new .65" chips to save money, although I would like to see confirmation as it is possible they are still using .95" chips.

There is an article at http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11 that discusses sharpness and includes pictures from a single chip DLP with a .95" chip (the Planar 8150) and a single chip DLP with a .65" chip (the Optoma 8200). Although we don't know how much the difference in sharpness is differences in lenses versus differences in chips, as the article says.

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post #84 of 2434 Old 08-02-2009, 01:45 PM
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this machine should be good for white environment (which kills most HT projectors) or large HT screens
(300cm wide and above) or far away placement (which cuts in half most HT pjs when you place them at tele mode).
the 50000:1 i don't believe either (well even JVC embarked on marketing scam with the RS20/750 and 50000:1: 200lumens remaining good for a postal stamp size screen?)

matters more to me that:
we have ansi cr 500:1 or above
minimum 1000lumens calibrated (color temp i always found 6500 to be "too" warm not on par with real life, in Japan don't dare talk to them of 6500 )
4000:1 on off minimum without any IRIS
(automatic or manual, whichever technology used) so pumping crushing.

i "hope" this one does clean image (forget brilliant colors stuff) with much less micro noise as found on the W5000, 1500lumens with good colors ( if they use a unipath or similar technology as SIM2 does ?) and W5000 sharpness (optics).

anyone expects a 1500lumens leds machine from manufacturers btw ?
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post #85 of 2434 Old 08-02-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

minimum 1000lumens calibrated (color temp i always found 6500 to be "too" warm not on par with real life, in Japan don't dare talk to them of 6500 )
4000:1 on off minimum without any IRIS
(automatic or manual, whichever technology used) so pumping crushing

I really don't see that happening, not when they're claiming double the brightness of the W5000 with only a slighly brighter lamp. Seems like they either opened up the light path or are relying on Brilliantcolor to hit that.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #86 of 2434 Old 08-02-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

(well even JVC embarked on marketing scam with the RS20/750 and 50000:1: 200lumens remaining good for a postal stamp size screen?)

Would you please stop with this claim about the JVC being a marketing scam. I wish the JVC iris would shut even further. What is a postal stamp size screen in your opinion? With a 96" wide Da-Lite High Power and proper setup for about 2.2 gain 200 lumens would result in about 12 ft-lamberts (and brighter with the actual measurements at cine4home.de of 230 and 245 lumens in modes that round to 50k:1). Also in a dark environment many of us are happy going to less than 12 ft-lamberts for white for lots of material when we can and 12 ft-lamberts is by no means a requirement. Were you getting 12 ft-lamberts on your screen when the bulb was new?

I remember when reviewers who didn't really understand things would talk about the high contrast modes of Sharp projectors being unusable. I get the feeling it is people like that who are getting manufactures making LED DLPs to only give the brighter modes and not the dimmer modes with higher native on/off CR even though it has been shown that many of us can figure out how to deal with dimmer modes and prefer them in cases like this. I highly doubt the Marantz 11S2, Sharp 12k, or Sharp 20k would have sold as well without their higher contrast modes that were dim enough that some people would have concluded they were unusable except on postage stamp size screens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

anyone expects a 1500lumens leds machine from manufacturers btw ?

I don't anytime too soon. Maybe 1000 lumens with a peak white feature (where all 3 LEDs are driven at once), but that wouldn't be the same as 1000 lumens worth of individual colors (what some now call Color Lumens). And next year LEDs should probably get brighter, although I don't know how fast the pace will be. Or what projectors with more LEDs will do for lumens given entendue issues.

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post #87 of 2434 Old 08-03-2009, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dangc View Post

Sort of bold statements that you are certainly entitled to as your opinion but to state that "I dont think anyone has issues with brightness when manual iris is fully opened" is speaking for others. I for one have big issues with brightness as 650 lumens will fall to <400 lumens when the bulb ages which is only adequate brightness for the average 100"-120" in screen in a fully light controlled room. I happen to have a 12' wide scope screen and I need at least around 800 lumens after bulb dimming meaning I need around 1500 lumens when the bulb is new.

My opinion here is that the majority of projectors out there cater to your needs so you have many options so don't assume everyone has the same needs as you.

Honestly what I believe BenQ is trying to do is compete with projectors like the epson LCDs where they have a far greater range of brightness that can be used well with different viewing scenarios. So we have already seen that this projector will have a few different modes including cinema with fewer lumens and I am sure better black levels vs. brighter modes for watching HD video material with some ambient light at the expense of black levels but still possibly good on/off CR. It will be interesting to see how this range of brightness is accomplished as that will drive how useful it will be for my needs. DLPs typically are able to maintain better color balance than LCDs when the brightness is pumped up. This is why the Epson 6100 or 6500s will not work for me as the color is way out of balance at its high lumens making it fine for watching HD sports with some lights on with some buddies but terrible for watching film based material in a light controlled room. So if this can produce 1500 lumens with good color balance at the cost of black levels that is fine as I alway have to make that sacrifice to have a big screen.

I look forward to the reviews as my current IN83 may have the lumens but the 36% fixed offset causes me a lot of grief as well as the highly recessed optics for my anamorphic lens. The IN83 also has terrible brightness uniformity.

Yes your correct, I was speaking for more regular size screens, clearly yours is larger then the majority i have seen.
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post #88 of 2434 Old 08-03-2009, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I really don't see that happening, not when they're claiming double the brightness of the W5000 with only a slighly brighter lamp. Seems like they either opened up the light path or are relying on Brilliantcolor to hit that.

that was more for a dlp in general, wish ful thinking.
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post #89 of 2434 Old 08-03-2009, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Would you please stop with this claim about the JVC being a marketing scam. I wish the JVC iris would shut even further. What is a postal stamp size screen in your opinion? With a 96" wide Da-Lite High Power and proper setup for about 2.2 gain 200 lumens would result in about 12 ft-lamberts (and brighter with the actual measurements at cine4home.de of 230 and 245 lumens in modes that round to 50k:1). Also in a dark environment many of us are happy going to less than 12 ft-lamberts for white for lots of material when we can and 12 ft-lamberts is by no means a requirement. Were you getting 12 ft-lamberts on your screen when the bulb was new?

I remember when reviewers who didn't really understand things would talk about the high contrast modes of Sharp projectors being unusable. I get the feeling it is people like that who are getting manufactures making LED DLPs to only give the brighter modes and not the dimmer modes with higher native on/off CR even though it has been shown that many of us can figure out how to deal with dimmer modes and prefer them in cases like this. I highly doubt the Marantz 11S2, Sharp 12k, or Sharp 20k would have sold as well without their higher contrast modes that were dim enough that some people would have concluded they were unusable except on postage stamp size screens.
I don't anytime too soon. Maybe 1000 lumens with a peak white feature (where all 3 LEDs are driven at once), but that wouldn't be the same as 1000 lumens worth of individual colors (what some now call Color Lumens). And next year LEDs should probably get brighter, although I don't know how fast the pace will be. Or what projectors with more LEDs will do for lumens given entendue issues.

--Darin

hi Darin
disclaimer: I highly respect yr expertise. (you're far more than me). good enough ?
JVC: HD1 HD100: advertised claims were often verified (see cine4home tests)
CR on off WITH good lumens (HD1 especially).

RS10 RS20: not. that's when they started the marketing like most manufacturers do . it was either good lumens and bit better ON off than HD1 HD100 OR, 45000:1 but no lumens. you know well how quickly most lamps loose power... and how lumens requirement rises fast as screen size enlarges.
that's my point.

LED: maybe it's stupid thinking but i go with how dim leds are compared to the typical 50w halogen spot. is there a limitation in led technology ? colors and contrast said to be amazing but brigthness ?
i remember the sharp. in fact the Z9000 in cinemascope did a much bigger impression to me in 2000 it was i think than the Z12000 because it had 3x more lumens in fact! with an ansi contrast not that far diff between the two (600-700:1 ?).
the search for ultimate contrast should not be at the expense of brigthness as imho screen sizes get bigger (the average or what people want) over time.
i have lots of clients who want the 300-450cm wide screens (add microperforations (not talking of woven models, ansi and lumens KILLERS (ie -40%) and you NEED something "capable" (withouth breaking the bank account for most people... sic).
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post #90 of 2434 Old 08-03-2009, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Yes your correct, I was speaking for more regular size screens, clearly yours is larger then the majority i have seen.

IN83: bright but on off falls hard indeed and the chip visibility is atrocious.
the IN 81 is more bang for the price compared.
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