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post #1 of 2424 Old 03-06-2009, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Benq w6000

Availability - "mid 2009 for 2000 euros (= ~$2500 US // $3200 CAN)"

(I know - technically this should be in the under $3000 forum but since it replaces the w5000 and the price on this is not officially announced it would be appropriate to at least announce this here?)

Across the pond, at CEBIT 2009, seems Benq has announced the w5000's replacement . . . . Obviously limited info so far but the highlights (gleamed from translated German and Italian coverage) include -

1. Instead of white it now comes in black piano lacquer
2. The W6000= 43 x 14.5 x 31.8cm weight of 19lbs
(vs W5000= 49 x 18 x 42cm weight of 21lbs)
3. Listed at 2500 ANSI lumens (vs 1200 for the W5000)
2500 normal mode and 1100 cinema mode
4. Listed at 30 000:1 Contrast ratio (vs 10 000:1 for the w5000) **Note the cnet report I got this from lists 50 000:1 but the crop here looks like it says 30 000:1. Anyway, its a big number.

5. 280 watt lamp (vs 200 watt on w5000)
6. Lamp life is the same 2000 / 3000 if economy
7. States still has vertical and horizontal lens shift (I think the w5000 only had vertical), but one of the german forums mentions its manual, not motorized as on the w5000
8. LOUDER at 32 normal / 29 eco compared to the w5000 at 28db
9. 2 HDMI (1.3 presumably), component, a VGA connection, S-video and Composite.
10. HQV technology and 6 segment color wheel


So basically compared to the w5000 its cheaper (excluding refurbed w5000s), piano black, smaller, brighter and has better contrast, yet louder and without motorized lens shift. . . . .
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post #2 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 01:26 AM
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Looks SLICK
I wonder which chip is it using and how muct DI CR can be measured
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post #3 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 07:16 AM
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Very nice projector indeed - I'm guessing it uses the new 0.65" DC3 from TI?

If this lives up to its numbers, it will be a killer PJ, especially at that price point...

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post #4 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 07:36 AM
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Interesting. My refurb W5000 just shipped, and already I have minor upgraditis: the improved contrast, smaller form factor and brighter bulb are very interesting. But I'm happier with the price I paid for the refurb. Maybe I'll get one of these on refurb next year, after they've worked out any bugs.

Or maybe I should stop frequenting this board and avoid reading threads that are obviously about the new product line, and just be happy with wot I got...

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post #5 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 08:59 AM
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if any one knows the throw ratio, please post it!
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post #6 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

Across the pond, at CEBIT 2009, seems Benq has announced the w5000's replacement . . . . Obviously limited info so far but the highlights (gleamed from translated German and Italian coverage) include -

1. Instead of white it now comes in black piano lacquer
2. The W6000= 43 x 14.5 x 31.8cm weight of 19lbs
(vs W5000= 49 x 18 x 42cm weight of 21lbs)
3. Listed at 2500 ANSI lumens (vs 1200 for the W5000)
4. Listed at 50 000:1 Contrast ratio (vs 10 000:1 for the w5000)

OK, now I don't believe that will will happen for a second. The W5000 is doing good to hit 5000:1 with DB enabled (maybe 6000-7000:1 if you've got BC on). There's no way this thing will hit 50,000:1 and be twice as bright as the W5000.

Quote:


8. LOUDER at 34 db (can that be right???) compared to the w5000 at 28db

If it's twice as bright, that makes a lot of sense.

Can't really see what they're shooting for with this machine.

Anyway, I got this all from the following pages - where more pics can also be found - listed here via Babelfish translation links.
(Sorry, I guess I'm not allowed to post links so if you change the ******* to "t i n y u r l"(without the spaces obviously) they should work) - man their filter for detecting web pages is good! I'm impressed. [/quote]

Why don't you just post the direct links.

Quote:


So basically compared to the w5000 its cheaper (excluding refurbed w5000s), piano black, smaller, brighter and has better contrast, yet louder and without motorized lens shift. . . . .

Sorry guys, not going to happen, half the price + twice as bright, it will not have better contrast.

Quote:


Makes you wonder what the w20000 replacement will be like....

Anyone else interested??

Not particularly, it sounds like they just took the W5000, put a bigger lamp in it, and cranked up the contrast rating way beyond reality like the LCD manufacturers seem to be doing. Basically it sounds like BenQ marketing's response to the AE3000/6500.

And FWIW, my W5000 throws a great picture, I just have a feeling this will end up being very similar, except not quite as good since the brighter, bigger lamp will hurt CR/black level.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #7 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 09:10 AM
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I REALLY hope they change the silver on the focus ring because it really clashes with the black. Other then that, the specs look great...
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post #8 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 10:17 AM
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The W5000 uses the older DC2+ chip - it's not unreasonable to posit that the successors to the W5000 and W20000 will have newer generation chips, specifically the new 0.65" DC3 and DC4, respectively. The smaller (and higher CR as compared to the DC2+) 0.65" DC3 chip in concert with the significantly brighter bulb should allow them to tweak the optical pathway to achieve a significantly higher CR on the W6000 than on the W5000. Obviously 50,000:1 is a marketing number, but to say that the 6000 won't significantly outperform the 5000 is jumping the gun.

Additionally, most companies quote max lumens and max CR. It goes without saying that this PJ - just as every other commercial PJ out there - won't simultaneously achieve max light output and max CR, but the ability to trade high light output for high contrast (or have a nice middle ground) is very likely and not uncommon in PJs with manual irises (assuming they kept that feature).

Maybe we should wait to see some more numbers and some reviews before we dismiss the W6000.

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post #9 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

The W5000 uses the older DC2+ chip - it's not unreasonable to posit that the successors to the W5000 and W20000 will have newer generation chips, specifically the new 0.65" DC3 and DC4, respectively.

Maybe, but with a 50% reduction in MSRP (and thus probably a reduction in street/overall cost), and given half the MSRP of the Optoma HD8200 (which is 0.65" DC3) I highly doubt the W6000 is a DC3 machine.

Quote:
The smaller (and higher CR as compared to the DC2+) 0.65" DC3 chip in concert with the significantly brighter bulb should allow them to tweak the optical pathway to achieve a significantly higher CR on the W6000 than on the W5000. Obviously 50,000:1 is a marketing number, but to say that the 6000 won't significantly outperform the 5000 is jumping the gun.

This just seems like an absolutely classic case of "to good to be true", 2x brighter, 5x better CR, and all for half the price. The math just doesn't add up. I just don't know how you can combine 2500 lumens and anything close to 50,000:1 On/Off.

If I were to guess, I'd say the W6000 would be more like an Optoma HD808, which is spec'd at 15,000:1 On/Off and 1300 Lumens, and uses an (I think) 0.65" DC2 DMD.

The 8200 hits about 6500-7000:1 On/Off with DB, which would probably put the 808 around 5000-6000:1 (about 30% less due to the DMD), which is right in line with the W5000.

Quote:
Additionally, most companies quote max lumens and max CR. It goes without saying that this PJ - just as every other commercial PJ out there - won't simultaneously achieve max light output and max CR, but the ability to trade high light output for high contrast (or have a nice middle ground) is very likely and not uncommon in PJs with manual irises (assuming they kept that feature).

No doubt, but just go do some research on machines that can do 2500 Lumens, you'll find pretty universally that they've got comparatively poor CR to those with lower specs. Reason being to get that much light you have to do things that sacrifice black level. And then there's the issue that these "cheaper" Dynamic Black machines seem to sacrifice Native CR in their implementation.

Also, for some perspective, this thing has a 280W lamp, the Infocus IN83 has a 300W lamp (different one granted) and can "only" do 1600 Lumens. So how does BenQ achieve 40% more? White segments? Or did they go with the RGBCMY BrilliantColor colorwheel? Either one will hurt black level.

Quote:
Maybe we should wait to see some more numbers and some reviews before we dismiss the W6000.

I'm happy to wait, but I just can't get excited by something that seems so clearly designed by marketing and so blatantly obviously unlikely to come anywhere near it's specs.

Throw out the lamp, the high CR, or the low price from the stated W6000 package and I'd find it plausible and potentially interesting.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #10 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

This just seems like an absolutely classic case of "to good to be true" ...

I think you could be right there. It wouldn't surprise me if this 50k:1 on/off CR is with an overly aggressive iris and maybe very unbalanced colors (without using a color filter externally). Kind of like the Panasonic AE3000 that is more like 6k:1 dynamic on/off CR calibrated in a mode other than Dynamic even though it is speced at 60k:1 on/off CR.
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I just don't know how you can combine 2500 lumens and anything close to 50,000:1 On/Off.

With very aggressive iris algorithms I could see the 50k:1 even in a bright mode. Dynamic irises changed things somewhat to where high on/off CR can be had while in high lumens mode. In some cases getting the highest dynamic on/off CRs requires being in a brighter mode (like Sony projectors where the iris needs to go to about full open to get the most dynamic on/off CR).
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Reason being to get that much light you have to do things that sacrifice black level.

But not necessarily CR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

White segments?

Wouldn't surprise me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Either one will hurt black level.

While a white segment would hurt black level from the projector, it wouldn't necessarily hurt CR (or black level when matched with an appropriate screen) if it was enabled. For those of us who would disable a white segment it would hurt CR though.

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post #11 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I think you could be right there. It wouldn't surprise me if this 50k:1 on/off CR is with an overly aggressive iris and maybe very unbalanced colors (without using a color filter externally). Kind of like the Panasonic AE3000 that is more like 6k:1 dynamic on/off CR calibrated in a mode other than Dynamic even though it is speced at 60k:1 on/off CR.

That's my thought.

Quote:


With very aggressive iris algorithms I could see the 50k:1 even in a bright mode. Dynamic irises changed things somewhat to where high on/off CR can be had while in high lumens mode. In some cases getting the highest dynamic on/off CRs requires being in a brighter mode (like Sony projectors where the iris needs to go to about full open to get the most dynamic on/off CR).

Obviously I mean that in a "usable" config.

Quote:


But not necessarily CR.

True, but usually it does mean CR as well. For example really, really bright DLPs are usually doing good to hit 2000:1 Native/static. To get the really high CRs it seems necessary to significantly reduce the static/manual iris aperture to achieve it. For example the Sharp 20k can only hit the 5k:1+ at the very dimmest settings.

Of course with a big lamp and a small aperture you could get good CR and brightness, but nobody seems interested in building such a projector.

Quote:


While a white segment would hurt black level from the projector, it wouldn't necessarily hurt CR (or black level when matched with an appropriate screen) if it was enabled.

But doesn't it have other negative effects then? Like reducing color saturation? I don't remember for sure, but I seem to recall there being some issues like that.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #12 of 2424 Old 03-07-2009, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Despite what the Cnet report listed, if you look closely at a crop from one of their pictures I think it actually says 30 000:1 and not 50 000:1 for contrast. (3rd row)



I've changed the initial post.

Though from what everyone is saying, its questionable whether these large numbers are actually too meaningful anyway . . .
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post #13 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 01:38 AM
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Must be using a dynamic iris to get that high a contrast ratio and a white or/and yellow segment to get that bright. If it also has manual iris control as mentioned above you could drop brightness to increase contrast. If the iris will go small enough this could give a very high contrast ratio with a 280watt lamp.

A white segment reduces color saturation in bright colors when it is used, this can cause the image to look odd - unnatural with bright areas more detached from more saturated areas. Typically the white segment is used only at the top end of the greyscale. The point where it starts to be used may also cause visible dithering in some mid-bright color shades.

A RGBYMC color wheel may cause more rainbow effect. As apparently with color wheels of the same speed the larger the red segment the less the rainbow effect. Also apparently the presence of a dark (neutral density) green segment increases rainbow effect.
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post #14 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

2. The W6000= 43 x 14.5 x 31.8cm weight of 19lbs
(vs W5000= 49 x 18 x 42cm weight of 21lbs)
5. 280 watt lamp (vs 200 watt on w5000)
8. LOUDER at 34 db (can that be right???) compared to the w5000 at 28db

Certainly it will be louder and reason for that can be read above - smaller casing and higher wattage lamp. 280W lamp will put out heat considerably more.

Looks like cost down model with exaggerated specs (which is usual).

It is always fun to read these threads about upcoming models where peoples make conclusions based on the specs and once product is out it turns out to be something else (for instance take a look at Optoma HD8200 thread).
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post #15 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 07:08 AM
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Let's not forget that, at least BenQ realizes the pressure that the multi-panel projectors are putting on the market. I for one, am glad to see one of the DLP companies at least putting out information that they are trying to accept the challenge.

Now, whether or not they can meet the specs with their new W6K has yet to be seen. Just how much is marketing hype and how much is 'down and dirty' effort, I guess we will have to wait to find out.

I'm cautiously optimistic though, as it is quite obvious that BenQ knows how to build a pretty decent projector, W5K/W20K case in point.

George
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post #16 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 07:45 AM
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Interesting. I just ordered a Pioneer FPJ1 to replace an older BenQ and cancelled my order for a W5000 refurb. I like the fact that you get a lot projector for the money from BenQ and they are well built. Also, it's about time they build a black projector in this range. I'm coming from the 7800/8700 era when they were white with blue or gray trim. The horizontal lens shift is also nice and a definite sign that they are paying attention to the 3-panel LCD market. If MSRP is really $2500 then it will be selling for under $2k within 9mos. Even at $2500, it sounds like a deal to me.

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post #17 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 02:20 PM
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What were the relative release dates of the 5000 and 20000?

Maybe there's a 21000 soon to follow.

Noah
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post #18 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What were the relative release dates of the 5000 and 20000?

Maybe there's a 21000 soon to follow.

Noah,

since they went from a 5,000 to a 6,000 one would think they'd go from a 20,000 to a 24,000

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post #19 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What were the relative release dates of the 5000 and 20000?

Maybe there's a 21000 soon to follow.


I'm pretty sure the W5000 was released in Feb, 2008. I don't know about the W2000.

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post #20 of 2424 Old 03-08-2009, 05:18 PM
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They were about the same time, or at least we knew about them at about the same time.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #21 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 05:54 AM
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Id be surprised if this model isnt tons better than the 5000, as its being released about 18 months later. Thats just evolution. Specs are probably exaggerated, but still... Im eager to see what the W20000 successor can do though, so im not all that excited about this one.
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post #22 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 08:54 AM
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Wm. Mayer started his "little Test" thread on the W5000 in December of '07.

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post #23 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Another totally unverifiable, but juicy, rumour - this time from an italian site, mentions the upcoming w30000 to be LED based? I'd attach the link but I guess I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, so just google "Benq w30000 LED" and translate the top link.

Anyway - here's the translation -

"The news is that the W30000 exist: it is a machine that we will see a half years, with the LED (this case) and that will consequently be placed at the top of the range. I hope that BenQ adopts a policy of price different from that of Lin and Chi Vivitek, but we will see. The engine will always be PhlatLight, then we should expect something immediately usable. We await with interest.
it seems that finally we have!"


That would be interesting . . . (if it wasn't priced like the Delta / Vivitek).
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post #24 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dovercat View Post

Must be using a dynamic iris to get that high a contrast ratio and a white or/and yellow segment to get that bright. If it also has manual iris control as mentioned above you could drop brightness to increase contrast. If the iris will go small enough this could give a very high contrast ratio with a 280watt lamp.

A white segment reduces color saturation in bright colors when it is used, this can cause the image to look odd - unnatural with bright areas more detached from more saturated areas. Typically the white segment is used only at the top end of the greyscale. The point where it starts to be used may also cause visible dithering in some mid-bright color shades.

A RGBYMC color wheel may cause more rainbow effect. As apparently with color wheels of the same speed the larger the red segment the less the rainbow effect. Also apparently the presence of a dark (neutral density) green segment increases rainbow effect.

They could be pulsing the lamp harder when the red segment goes by and thus getting a lot more power out of the lamp.

if their using the smaller .65 chip it has a higher fill factor and the latest coatings on the back focal plane so the chip may have a better inherent on/contrast ratio than the DC4 chip.

the smaller chip will limit the effective contrast at the screen.

I doubt they would put a white segment in to boost output power because it would under saturate all the colors and its an old Infocus trick.

So many more manufacturers are using the DI and pulsed lamp technologies that I assume they are learning from each other ( translate stealing) that they are getting as a group better at it.

BenQ has had trouble with noise problems in the past but I have heard those problems have been fixed. They always deliver a lot of bang for the buck.
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post #25 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 10:42 AM
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Higher noise = no upgrade for me. The 5000 is just about the limit of what I can live with. Too bad, specs look good and I could use horizontal lens shift (and better zoom too)
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post #26 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 12:12 PM
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Another quote from that same Italian website discussing the W6000 (awkwardly translated by Google - babelfish didn't do any better):

http://www.htprojectors.com/indexITA.asp

(And search for W30000 and/or W6000)

Quote:


...Here it is, the BenQ W6000, prices under $ 4000 for a DLP Dark Chip 3 with HQV video processor, which despite having a new form (it was even now, someone might say maliciously), does not replace the number 5 / 20000, because designed for different audiences. Here the main application, having a plate higher brightness is not directly the Home Theater, but the field of play. Ie those who use the projector with the lights on, and therefore need a higher light intensity compared to what we are not used, however, when we use the machines in total darkness. Except then always explain why the Anamorphic lens (for games?, But I would add: for the film ???...).

The key features are those that can be expected from a machine of its kind: it is a DLP, 1920 x 1080, declared with brightness of 2,500 Lumens, and there is a shift from optical to control the kind of joystick you see in the picture.

I must say that the machine, although not stated ambitions for Home Theater, not far from where the cavava male: beautiful colors, discreet black (of course compared to that he was very enlightened for our criteria) that will go out more successfully in situations different, good fluidity. The menu service is different from the W5000, but the mode of access are the same (as you can see, there are entered immediately). Given that they told me that the machine was practically fold two days before, I would define a good result, although to be verified with a sample to be tested with due calm. The first impression, once again taking into account the environment was pleasant.

That is saying the W6000 doesn't replace the W5000, it augments it in a slightly different target market. So is there a W5500 on the way to officially replace the W5000? I dunno...

shinksma

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post #27 of 2424 Old 03-09-2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

Another totally unverifiable, but juicy, rumour - this time from an italian site, mentions the upcoming w30000 to be LED based? I'd attach the link but I guess I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, so just google "Benq w30000 LED" and translate the top link.

Anyway - here's the translation -

"The news is that the W30000 exist: it is a machine that we will see a half years, with the LED (this case) and that will consequently be placed at the top of the range. I hope that BenQ adopts a policy of price different from that of Lin and Chi Vivitek, but we will see. The engine will always be PhlatLight, then we should expect something immediately usable. We await with interest.
it seems that finally we have!"


That would be interesting . . . (if it wasn't priced like the Delta / Vivitek).

Now that's the kind of info/rumour I like to here. If it comes in at the 8700, W10000, W20000 price of ~$8k MSRP, that would generate a lot of interest. Especially if they really take advantage of the LED source (rather than just "swapping out" the lamp).

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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

They could be pulsing the lamp harder when the red segment goes by and thus getting a lot more power out of the lamp.

I believe they already are, the W5000/W20000 use Philips' Vidi lamp.

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if their using the smaller .65 chip it has a higher fill factor and the latest coatings on the back focal plane so the chip may have a better inherent on/contrast ratio than the DC4 chip.

the smaller chip will limit the effective contrast at the screen.

I doubt they would put a white segment in to boost output power because it would under saturate all the colors and its an old Infocus trick.

I'm guessing Brilliant Color with an RGBCMY wheel.

Quote:


BenQ has had trouble with noise problems in the past but I have heard those problems have been fixed. They always deliver a lot of bang for the buck.

Noise I believe they're talking about audible noise, the the W6000 is 5-10dB louder than the W5000.

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Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

That is saying the W6000 doesn't replace the W5000, it augments it in a slightly different target market.

That actually makes a lot of sense, 2500 Lumens definitely isn't "Home Theater" market. Well, not in the <$20k forums.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #28 of 2424 Old 03-10-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

Another totally unverifiable, but juicy, rumour - this time from an italian site, mentions the upcoming w30000 to be LED based? I'd attach the link but I guess I haven't posted enough to be able to post links yet, so just google "Benq w30000 LED" and translate the top link.

[/i]

That would be interesting . . . (if it wasn't priced like the Delta / Vivitek).

As much as I want to believe this, that thread was from January, I would think we would have heard more info by now if it were true. I really hope so though...
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post #29 of 2424 Old 03-10-2009, 01:07 PM
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[quote=stanger89;16004349]Now that's the kind of info/rumour I like to here. If it comes in at the 8700, W10000, W20000 price of ~$8k MSRP, that would generate a lot of interest. Especially if they really take advantage of the LED source (rather than just "swapping out" the lamp).



I believe they already are, the W5000/W20000 use Philips' Vidi lamp.



I'm guessing Brilliant Color with an RGBCMY wheel.



Noise I believe they're talking about audible noise, the the W6000 is 5-10dB louder than the W5000.

I was talking about video noise especially when brilliant color was turned on. I have seen good results with brilliant color and the Osram lamp but have not seen the same results ie. deeper color and better blacks with the Vidi. Their was a high end translate overpriced Norwegian company that came out with vidi based system and had to withdraw it from the market. I think the pulsed lamp technology really makes a difference in the quality of the image of a single chip projector adding another 2 bits of gray scale, lessening or limiting the dither artifacts and improving the color depth. I actually think that the single chip SIM2 projectors project a better image than their 3 chip. This is why I think an led based single chip DLP may really put out a spectacular image at a reasonable price.
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post #30 of 2424 Old 03-10-2009, 05:26 PM
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I was talking about video noise especially when brilliant color was turned on.

Yes, but I thought you were responding to st_o_p who was referring to audible noise.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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